Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C

[mark tenenbaum]

1 How many of the breeders that used him are in the US IT IS A GIVEN THE THE COW IS AT LEAST 50% OF THE EQUATION-If anything the "bashing" is not only about him-but trying to recognize a distinct problem in US Shorthorns that needs to be addressed CALVING PROBLEMS-and pronto if the average purebred small breeder is going to sell a bull at all. CE isnt just about wieght-it can be the shape of the calf, nutrition a dominent gene per se  from a huge BW animal coming to fore a from few generations backetc: I MEAN WHO DONT KNOW THAT? That is why bulls like Hot Commodity-the  not clean and  clean Jazz Sons , Jazz himslf, the Angus in the background of the Jungels-Loving bulls, the Waukaru linebred (in some cases) deals the Red Reward Red Demand genetics available to the PEASANTS,have been coming into fashion for the last AT LEAST 10 years. Yea Yea-Im not listing everyone-but my hats off to all-BECAUSE-they honestly recognize a very distinct LIMITATION which has scaired many people away down here in many cases. 2-Nobody is trying to be an EPD expert from what I see on this thread-its about the LACK OF TRUE ACCURACY stemming from calving reports-ITS THERE PLAIN AND SIMPLE,-I have to say-Genomics are going to be a game changer of sorts-even if its in a small way.I said in the other thread-This thread is really about the US Market -US Cattle-and what is going on HERE. No Shorthorn Breeders that I know of down here have a hunky dunkle international fan club and just cant keep thier genetics on the shelf due to the insatiable demand of thier happy customers who do not have a care in the world-Different place different issues CERTAINLY DIFFERENT MODES OF ACCEPTANCE O0

 

[kiblercattle]

Not bashing the bull and agrguing that he's a cow killer but you can't argue that genetically his calves will be on the heavier end of the bw spectrum. My dad is running 7 sonny grandsons that are bred similar to firestorm on predominately angus/Hereford commercial cows. There's 800 cows and the rest get angus bulls. The cows are run out on dry grass for 9 months of the year so they are in moderate condition when they calve. Cows are calved turned out on range so they are not pampered or even checked regularly. But when checked their calves are obviously on the larger side( 90-100+ lb not uncommon)on of all the calves born by a good margin not that they are a problem but assuming that the cows were in great condition the calves should theoretically be larger. This is being observed over a course of 5 calf crops (750-850 calves) so it's not gathered from some guy that has 10 calves a year out of a bull that they picked out cows with traits to offset the bulls negative qualities or vice versa. IMO he's a bull that for most commercial guys that there is not enough benefit from the high bw potential to be relevant and not picking on him but there are lots of shorthorn bulls that fit this category.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I agree and appreciate your feedback-There are also alot of good usefull bulls coming available that will be in some cases easier calving than alot of the others including the Angus If it ever gets down to it-Im glad to help you find some-An operation like yours is real world and I"d love to see what the cattle-calves look like-and there are Shorthorns out there that will work-and they ARE NOT THE FRAIL UNATTRACTIVE HARD DOING LOOKING KIND There is alot to be said for rotating the British Breeds-especially if you like to eat really good beef O0

 

[matt999]

Here’s a bunch of firestorm progeny selling on September 29 as well as a picture of his dam at 8 years old.

 

[aj]

I'm sure I will be crucified for asking but where does this bull shake out on the double muscle deal?

 

[Medium Rare]

I'm sure I will be crucified for asking but where does this bull shake out on the double muscle deal?

Tested free of all three.

Many of the Canadian breeders should be commended for their level of testing. Their list of results dwarfs the US list.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Really good show cattle from one like him-HOWEVER-So how do the BWS shake out over time-There are just too many proven hard calvers up close in his pedigree to make him a .01-BW-like certain animals in the US with Salute-on a Solution female-which is an absolute JOKE.  This DOES NOT eliminate him from being a high quality deal if used carefully-I dont believe one shot of Proud Jazz-Hot Commodity etc will completely turn around the potential calving problems with these genetics in one generation any more than I can pick up the Empire State Building. However-JMO-second or third gen would be the deal-If there were 3 unrelated CE-high performing bulls to stack next-That would make show cattle. I want both the "new" dual purpose-cattle that will show that are also legitimately functional-Its an age old task and very hard to come up with O0

 

[ty378]

I only have a handful of shorthorns and I used the bull only had one calf out of him this year but he was 130 pounds out of a mature AOD cow and he needed to be pulled, we sold him last week at the stockyards and he brought in a whopping 445 dollars after commission. I bred some more to him this year unfortunately it's to late to estrumate them. I feel they are going to be cattle that have a high input cost

 

[Duncraggan]

I agree with Mark on this one!

Hill Haven Bold 4X was a sire I would have used in a flash, Firestorm with his sire, maybe a bit reluctant! JMO

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Not bashing the bull and agrguing that he's a cow killer but  IMO he's a bull that for most commercial guys that there is not enough benefit from the high bw potential to be relevant and not picking on him but there are lots of shorthorn bulls that fit this category.

///// From the very polite manner that you state things and the numbers of cattle you run I am assuming you are up in Canada-There are a couple REALLY GOOD Shorthorn bulls with low 0 or close BW EPDS that have used almost exclusively on commercial cattle down here-Although there have been a few registered Shorts out of them too-Proven on hiefers-and POO POOEd by anyone Ive tried to introduce them to because they dont have 10 calves registered with the "accurate LOL" Epds". What these people fail to realize is that there are also $3-8000 show calves out of the SAME bulls-from-Shorthorns, Charolais XS, Angus, herefords,and Xs Simms etc. The commercial guys in iowa have used them both and like the breeders of rhe show calves that basically are RAISED COMMERCIAL-could give a RATS A$%^*(__S about the Shorthorn Assoc and the BS politics.  Wish you were down here so I could get you a little semen O0