How soon to breed a cow back??

[hntwhitetail]

I was wondering how soon I can get a cow bred back, after calving.  I have a powerful pb angus that is 8yrs old.  She raises a great calf year after year, star power has worked and any maine bull we put on her.  She missed 2 cycles last year and will be dropping her current calf any day now, which will be a pb angus.  I want to put a power bull on her like Walks Alone to downsize her a little or Smiling bob for a club calf.  How soon can I get her bred, so she will be dropping @ a decent date next year?  I could either sync her or watch for a natural heat.  Trying to have a another good one out of her @ the right time next year.

Thanks for any tips.

 

[Bulldaddy]

Depending on how expensive the semen is, you could breed her on the first heat after calving.  Usually that heat is not as fertile as the next heat but worth a try if you want to move her calving date back.  You could also wait 45 days and sync her with a CIDR.  That would move her back a month.

 

[firesweepranch]

Most cows cycle 45 to 60 days after calving. Remember, her uterus needs to heal and shrink before she can conceive again. Last year we took a chance and bred back our good simmi cow at her 45 day heat cycle, and everyone told us it was a waist of semen. She took, and had twins this year! We have AI'd her twice now and she has not taken (we do not use bulls, only AI). She calved March 1st, so now she is behind again (she calved April 2nd last year, so we bumped her back a month). Now, our cow that had our first embryo calf in December is still not pregnant! She came in at 21 days after calving, and we waited until she was 60 days to put an embryo in. Did that twice, and have AI'd  her twice (she was cystic once so that set us back!). Anyway, back in heat today  :-\ So sometimes it does not work. Her embryo son might end up breeding her! He is certainly trying tonight (he is 6 months). It's times like this that we wish we had a bull!
Consequently, they are the only two that have not stuck, everything else has passed over at least one cycle if not two!

 

[xxcc]

yep, i agree, with the above, rule of thumb has been 40-45 days to breed, 75 days to flush.

 

[hntwhitetail]

Most cows cycle 45 to 60 days after calving. Remember, her uterus needs to heal and shrink before she can conceive again. Last year we took a chance and bred back our good simmi cow at her 45 day heat cycle, and everyone told us it was a waist of semen. She took, and had twins this year! We have AI'd her twice now and she has not taken (we do not use bulls, only AI). She calved March 1st, so now she is behind again (she calved April 2nd last year, so we bumped her back a month). Now, our cow that had our first embryo calf in December is still not pregnant! She came in at 21 days after calving, and we waited until she was 60 days to put an embryo in. Did that twice, and have AI'd  her twice (she was cystic once so that set us back!). Anyway, back in heat today  :-\ So sometimes it does not work. Her embryo son might end up breeding her! He is certainly trying tonight (he is 6 months). It's times like this that we wish we had a bull!
Consequently, they are the only two that have not stuck, everything else has passed over at least one cycle if not two!

Thanks for the info.  She always throws a calf that you can get rid of when the first person shows up.  Trying to get her back to the optimal time for the area fairs. 

How close is he in height to her?  Figured he would have to get her downhill to be successful.

 

[firesweepranch]

I was watching him Sunday night, and he gets pretty darn close! Not sure if he is fertile yet, so I went ahead and AI'd her again. If she takes, we will just DNA the calf when it is born to make sure who the daddy is. The bull calf is more than half her height, and weighs at least 750 pounds now (need to weigh him). She gave her all to him, and is slightly thin (for our cows at least!). We bought her as a yearling, and she never took to AI (we tried several times, and finally contacted the breeder who ran her with a really nice bull of theirs and she took on her first heat) so she is a spring cow that calved in fall because she got behind. The bull calf she had won our BIG district fair out here last year as a 7 month old, but we had already put an embryo in her for her 2010 calf. She does a great job raising a calf, so I put the best in her. Anyway, our embryologist tried twice to put another embryo in her (between her being cystic), but she did not take either one. So we decided to try to AI her, still no luck. So now she is behind another season (was a fall, now a spring if we get her bred!). I am sure if she ran with a bull she would take first cycle, so I hope her son can get her next cycle if she did not get bred this cycle. I will try to get a pic of the two of them... nice pair!

 

[hntwhitetail]

I'll be waiting on a pic.  Hopefully you can get her stuck!

 

[TMBCATTLE]

NOT TRYING TO HIGHJACK THREAD BUT HOW CAN YOU FOLKS NOT HAVE A BULL TO ATLEAST CLEAN UP YOUR COWS WITH AFTER YOU AI THEM  ONCE OR TWICE. IT IS JUST NOT SMART BUISNESS TO LET YOUR COWS GET ALL SPREAD OUT. I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOUR AREA BUT IN MINE YOU CAN  LEASE A BULLFROM SEVERAL VERY GOOD BREEDERS FOR LESS THAN WHAT A FEEDER CALF IS WORTH . JMO BUT IF YOU CANT GET HER BRED THE FIRST OR SECOND TIME THEN LET THE BULL HAVE HER AT LEAST YOU WILL HAVE A BETTER SHOT NEXT YEAR.

 

[Woody]

In my opinion you breed her on the first heat because she is so far behind, if she doesnt take get her next time.  This also might sound crazy but last year i had four cows that were my late calvers, when they were 2 weeks out of calf i put a CIDR in them and left it for two weeks.  I bred three on standing heats and one on timed. 2 of the four settled to that service and the herd bull bred the other two next cycle.  Maybe was a little costly only getting 50% ai but it moved all of the cows back into a better calving window.

 

[hntwhitetail]

NOT TRYING TO HIGHJACK THREAD BUT HOW CAN YOU FOLKS NOT HAVE A BULL TO ATLEAST CLEAN UP YOUR COWS WITH AFTER YOU AI THEM  ONCE OR TWICE. IT IS JUST NOT SMART BUISNESS TO LET YOUR COWS GET ALL SPREAD OUT. I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOUR AREA BUT IN MINE YOU CAN  LEASE A BULLFROM SEVERAL VERY GOOD BREEDERS FOR LESS THAN WHAT A FEEDER CALF IS WORTH . JMO BUT IF YOU CANT GET HER BRED THE FIRST OR SECOND TIME THEN LET THE BULL HAVE HER AT LEAST YOU WILL HAVE A BETTER SHOT NEXT YEAR.

We do have 2 clean up bulls running with the herd.. now.  The problem w/ this cow last year was she raised a whale of a calf that pretty much drained her and I think stressed her from the clean-up bull to get ahold of her, plus I was out of town for work and the clean-up bull went down w/ a bad foot.  By the time I got another one of my bulls back over from another farm, set her back a little bit.  She must have cycled 3 or possibly 4 times before she was finally caught by the other clean-up bull after the other bull went down.  I picked up another bull this year to keep things simplier. 

 

[firesweepranch]

NOT TRYING TO HIGHJACK THREAD BUT HOW CAN YOU FOLKS NOT HAVE A BULL TO ATLEAST CLEAN UP YOUR COWS WITH AFTER YOU AI THEM  ONCE OR TWICE. IT IS JUST NOT SMART BUISNESS TO LET YOUR COWS GET ALL SPREAD OUT. I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOUR AREA BUT IN MINE YOU CAN  LEASE A BULLFROM SEVERAL VERY GOOD BREEDERS FOR LESS THAN WHAT A FEEDER CALF IS WORTH . JMO BUT IF YOU CANT GET HER BRED THE FIRST OR SECOND TIME THEN LET THE BULL HAVE HER AT LEAST YOU WILL HAVE A BETTER SHOT NEXT YEAR.

We have done this for four years now, without a bull. But our herd size is small (12 breeding age cows now), and our goal is QUALITY not quantity. With that said, this cow I am talking about is the ONLY cow we have that is not had a calf every year (she is 4 years old and had two calves so far, but obviously not set up yet to have a calf next season), and in fact ALL of our cows have calved by their second birthday and every year after. We even have a four year old cow that has had 4 LIVE SUCKING calves! She obviously twinned this year  ;D But, if you watch your cows closely, you do not need a bull! I heat detect twice a day minimum (when I am teaching in Fall/Spring I can not get a noon watch twice a week because of class). I know when the cows are in heat within 4 hours usually. Out of 10 cows bred this spring, I only have two left to stick (and one maybe stuck, not due in for another week). All that without a bull. 6 stuck on their first AI date, the other 2 on their second (they were bred on their first calf heat), AND I bred them to what I hope is the bull that best compliments them and their weaknesses. With a single bull that can not be done(the genetic variability that is). Our calving window is not all over, and in fact we have 5 calves due in February and 4 due in March so far for next year, and this year we had one in January, 3 in February, 3 in March, and 2 in April, so we actually tightened up our window. We have a few fall calving cows that stuck also without a problem on first AI. Renting a bull would be a waste of our money, and narrows our genetic selection.
BUT, we now have this one really great cow that IS having a problem, thus we either ship her or bull breed her. That is why I am hoping her embryo son can tag her if not this last cycle then the next. As always, I can roll her over to fall and breed her in November for a September calf, but I lose a year on her that way. And that is NO way to make money. So we will see. I have included a pic of her taken today nursing he rMid-December bull calf...
Sorry Whitetail for hijacking your thread!

 

[Simmgal]

So, if her own bull calf breeds her, won't that cause some complications? We have seen genetics too closely related cross, and the results weren't too good..

 

[firesweepranch]

So, if her own bull calf breeds her, won't that cause some complications? We have seen genetics too closely related cross, and the results weren't too good..

He's and embryo, so he is NOT related to her. She only carried him  So no problem!

 

[CAB]

I was watching him Sunday night, and he gets pretty darn close! Not sure if he is fertile yet, so I went ahead and AI'd her again. If she takes, we will just DNA the calf when it is born to make sure who the daddy is. The bull calf is more than half her height, and weighs at least 750 pounds now (need to weigh him). She gave her all to him, and is slightly thin (for our cows at least!). We bought her as a yearling, and she never took to AI (we tried several times, and finally contacted the breeder who ran her with a really nice bull of theirs and she took on her first heat) so she is a spring cow that calved in fall because she got behind. The bull calf she had won our BIG district fair out here last year as a 7 month old, but we had already put an embryo in her for her 2010 calf. She does a great job raising a calf, so I put the best in her. Anyway, our embryologist tried twice to put another embryo in her (between her being cystic), but she did not take either one. So we decided to try to AI her, still no luck. So now she is behind another season (was a fall, now a spring if we get her bred!). I am sure if she ran with a bull she would take first cycle, so I hope her son can get her next cycle if she did not get bred this cycle. I will try to get a pic of the two of them... nice pair!

Her bull won't settle her. He's way too young for that.

 

[firesweepranch]

Her bull won't settle her. He's way too young for that.
[/quote]

I thought the same thing, but then have had several people tell me about 6 month old bulls breeding flushmates or pen mates that are the same age. At what age is "average" for a bull to be fertile? We pulled our two fall heifer and a May we have not bred yet into a separate pasture "just in case".

 

[Simmgal]

Her bull won't settle her. He's way too young for that.

I thought the same thing, but then have had several people tell me about 6 month old bulls breeding flushmates or pen mates that are the same age. At what age is "average" for a bull to be fertile? We pulled our two fall heifer and a May we have not bred yet into a separate pasture "just in case".
[/quote]
Well, it varies from breed to breed. We have had some crossbred heifers that we kept for replacements turn up 3 months pregnant to the 6 month old bull calves running with them when they are preg checked at 7 to 9 months old. On the other hand, I have some purebred Simmental heifers that are about a year old that haven't cycled yet. Haha it just depends 

 

[CAB]

After doing a little research, the best answer that I can give you is that a bull calf's scrotum needs to measure 28cm B4 he can have a chance of having mature sperm. Get out the tape!!

 

[firesweepranch]

After doing a little research, the best answer that I can give you is that a bull calf's scrotum needs to measure 28cm B4 he can have a chance of having mature sperm. Get out the tape!!

Gee, I wonder what the neighbors will think when they see me out there sneaking around with a tape stalking our bull calf 

Now to go find one....

 

[hntwhitetail]

After doing a little research, the best answer that I can give you is that a bull calf's scrotum needs to measure 28cm B4 he can have a chance of having mature sperm. Get out the tape!!

Gee, I wonder what the neighbors will think when they see me out there sneaking around with a tape stalking our bull calf 

Now to go find one....

Make sure your fingers are warm.  <cowboy>

 

[T-Majic]

I didn't read the entire thread but read a few and I agree on waiting til the first heat cycle. I synched 20 head with CIDR's and had one that was exactly 45 days and on that was 51 days. My ABS rep who AI's for me said they had an open cervix and I can only hope they stick since I bred em both to Walks alone.