Is not showing your own animal cheating?

[red]

We had this in a previous thread about rigged shows. Someone commented that a person hadn't shown her own animals & was that cheating?
I guess in this person's defense she doesn't have a handicap sticker for nothing. But it opened up a possibility of a good topic. Do you feel it's cheating to have someone else show your cattle?
We usually always had either our daughter or nephews show our cattle. Hubby is on crutches & I'm a walking disaster in the show ring. I know when we show at NAILE in 2000, we were told it was best to have someone esle show our heifer. Our daughter showed her in the junior show earlier. The other person just was better known, did a better job of setting her up & presenting her. We've not had anyone else show since then except for family.
I was just curoius on what others thought? Is it wrong to have someone else show your animal if your handicapped? Or show we all fit our own, show our own & make it a "even" playing field?

Have fun!

Red

 

[cowz]

Here is an interesting one......just one person's opinion....this may cross over into the "please don't hire this guy as a judge" category as well.  My brother in law was in a partnership with another cattleman.  Things went south and there were bad feelings.  None of this had anything to do with my family who live 600 miles from this scenario.

This Cattlemen gets invited to judge our state fair.  Sees nephew of ex-partner.....places him last in Junior show class.  In open show, same kid and same heifer win class under different judge.  Silly state fair hires judges for a 2 year tenure.  Fast forward to 2006.  Same kid, half sibling heifer wins the Junior show!  Kid smarter for last year's treatment from Uncles old pal, asks friend to show heifer in open show because he knows what will happen to him.  Kid's heifer wins Res. Champ.  When judge figures out what happened after the show he stomps over to my 16 year old and tells him if he had any huevos he would have shown his own calf.

Soooooo.  Did we do wrong.?  Its already over.  What do you all think?

 

[shorthorns r us]

in the case you mentioned, wouldn't it be much different if those cattle hadn't been bred by the shownan's family. what burns me is for juniors, or those exhibiting as juniors, to have their calves KEPT. throw in a few hundred miles and some state lines and i nearly spontaneously combust. bring it down to the county level and i could propel the space shuttle. to see a trader bring a steer straight out of their cooler and hand it off to a perfectly clean kid at the gate, i guess that is what it is all about.

 

[red]

SRU- great point! How do those kids learn anything? Yous is like Cowz example a way back where the mom handed the daughter some dirty jeans to put on before she went out in show ring.

I guess I'm more thinking of people that actually work w/ their calves but have a "professional" or friend show them.

Red

 

[shorthorns r us]

my post was addressing red's original post. that second post popped in there while i was typing. and NO, i am not sore about my kid or one of my calves getting beaten that way. it has not happened to me. i just don't think it is appropriate.

 

[CPL]

I have heard many times someone say, "Oh well so and so is going to show this calf for me in what ever show." Personally I don't like it when a pretty well established farm has younger kids show their cattle. From what I have seen the well established farm brushes, rinses, feeds, and halter breaks the calf. The kid then shows up at fair day, takes the nice animal and shows very well. This versus another kid who works hard, brushing, rinsing, feeding, and breaking the calf. Then they show up to get totally beaten by another kid who doesn't even know the sire of the calf.

However in cowz case, I don't see a problem with a kid showing another kids calf. Its when you have farms that have been around 10+ years that let other kids show their cattle. (RATHER THAN SELL THE CALF TO THE KID)

I don't know maybe its just me but I can't stand it.

 

[justme]

In a junior show unless the kids is sick or injured I feel they should show and care for there own calf.  I'll be the first to admit, we help our daughter get her heifer ready to go into the ring.  She's only 9 and she gets worn out quick (she's only 69 pounds).  At home she helps us do it all though.

Open show is an open show.  If you can get the Pope to show that calf good for you!  I personally do not have a problem getting someone to show in open shows for you.  It's the Jr. shows that irritate me

 

[chambero]

Open Show - who cares.  It's business.  If its not explicity against the rules its not cheating.

Junior Show - I believe most rules have very explicit scenarios when a substitute exhibitor can be used. 

In regards to big breeders setting up kids with a heifer - that is a grey area that is impossible to regulate.  In general, I believe more good comes out of it than bad.  I was once the recipient of such a deal.  I showed a lot of heifers that I never truly "owned".  I worked my rear end off taking care of them and could get it done with a stick - that's why people were willing to let me show them.  I could never have afforded such cattle if I had to buy them.  In my opinion, I was just as deserving to have a chance to win as a kid that came from money.  I know I appreciated the chance more. 

Now I'm on the other end of it.  We help out kids that don't have the money to buy good calves.  The calves live at my barn - but the kids feed and take care of them on a daily basis.  I help out on weekends and of course we will feed when they have ballgames, etc.  Unfortunately, many of the kids don't do "enough" in my book.  I'm prejudiced a little because I might have been the exception to the rule, but if they don't hold up their end of the bargain there is no second year.  If over the years my "help" does for another kid long-term what was done for me, all the headaches associated with the lazy ones are worth it.

I could be wrong on this, but I haven't seen very many kids that could show good enough to win big unless they spend enough of their own time with an animal, regardless of whether they have an army of fitters.  I don't know how much the "clean handoff" really works in reality.  There are so many good calves that showmanship is more important now than it used to be. 

Example - I had to bite my tongue to keep from laughing last year at Fort Worth.  A really, really "big name" kid with very expensive calves obviously doesn't spend much time with his calves.  He was in the toughest exotic class.  I happened to sit next to his fitter with the parents a couple of rows up.  That fitter looked like he was trying to give hand signals to a jet fighter trying to land on an aircraft carrier.  This was such an extreme case it was comical.  The kid (who is high school-aged) got buried because he didn't have a clue how to set that calf up (which was gentle and well-behaved).  These people had every resource in the world (and I mean every) and still couldn't get it done (even though the calf was good enough in my opinion) largely because they forgot rule no 1 - the kid has to be able to show the calf.  The class (and the show) was won by a very little girl who could show her big steer perfectly (who by the way is helped by the same fitter that helped out the Rash's and previously the daddy's family).  He knows how to teach kids to show a calf.  It ain't just about growing hair.  He doesn't mess with you unless you do your part.  Too many waiting in line for his help.  These "big time" fitters are often very good teachers as well.  They aren't all bad.

 

[red]

Great post Chambero!
I forgot that we've been also helping out a young man & his family & he had been showing my heifer for us! Duh, sometimes the brain just doesn't receive the signals! It was a great experience for us & for him.
I also have seen too many kids screw up a good calf at a show because they had never worked w/ it. That is so important in my opinion. All the coaching & hand signals from the side lines will never make up for hands on experience!
Great feed back so far guys! I really appreciate the stories & examples!

Red (welcome)

 

[sawboss]

Here is a good one for you to ponder.  Our 2007 County Show goes by the rules mandated by the University Interscholastic League which governs all extracurricular activities such as band, athletics, FFA etc.  We have the "No Pass No Play" rule, if you fail a class in school you are ineligible to participate in such activities for three weeks, on the condition you are passing at the end of that time.  Our show allows for another student to exhibit the failing childs' animal, if they are from the same school, passing and not exhibiting an animal of their own.  I can live with this to the point where the student is not punished financially for failing in school.  By the way I am a former high school principal.  Where I draw the line is this child finished 48th overall out of 55 calves in the premium sale, and received in excess of $3.00/lb. and retained his calf to be sold at market price of .80 cents/lb.  My two sons were eligible and received $1.20 and $1.35/lb. for 17th and 24th overall.  Solid fair prices for our county, however they wonder why the failing child was rewarded with more money than they received for doing their job start to finish?  I took the opportunity to explain that life is not always fair, that sometimes it is not what you know or do, but rather who you are or know.  Failing child's Dad is a local bank president, I'll let you guess who paid the premium on the calf.

 

[red]

Wow, that's a weird way to punish a kid! So all that happens is that they don't show the calf themselves but still reap the benefits? Sounds like a good deal to a slacker.
You explained right to your kids. Life is not always fair but if you play by the rules & work your hardest you'll suceed more than most. Wait until "daddy" can't always be there to bail out the kid.

Red

 

[cowz]

There is a couple who own some really good Gelbvieh cattle who go to alot of state fairs and national shows.  I do not think they ever had children of their own.  They have a passel of teenagers who travel with them and their herdsmen to all of the summer shows.  This is a dilemma.  These folks are happy because they are surrounded by a great bunch of teenagers.  The owners pay for everything, the teens do most of the work and show under their own names.  The ranch's cattle get promoted.  Alot of the juniors cannot compete with these kids.  Is it fair? No.  Do the kids traveling with them learn alot?  Yes. 

This is one of those things that will always be around unless you make a rule that animals have to be bred by the juniors or owned for a year or so.  Does that make sense?  Probably not.

I have to agree with Chambero, that the kid who gets handed the calf before they walk into the ring may sometimes win, but they loose in the end.  The feeding, brushing, washing, fitting is the total package.!  That's what it is all about. ;D

 

[chambero]

COWZ: 

If you have a rule that an animal has to be bred by the junior, you'll eliminate probably 95% of the kids that actually show cattle through 4-H and FFA.  Most don't come from families that own land and most certainly don't breed show cattle themselves.  In the example you gave, the kids that can't compete against the cattle from the big ranch just wouldn't be showing at all.  It's a lot harder to breed one than buy one. 

As long as those folks are making those kids have an education experience and making them shoulder the load on the work, I would actually commend them.  You'd (figuratively) be showing against those cattle anyway if they were outright sold.  It gets back to the question of why do you show?  To win or because you love doing it.  If you put in the time, pay your dues, and be patient, you'll do your share of winning in the end.

 

[DL]

I was looking thru a variety of breed amgazines  in the last couple of days and there are tons of heifers "owned by kid" and guess who is in the picture of the open shows? Not the kid that is for sure - I find it wierd, don't the big guys trust the kid to show the animal that the kid bought or are we more sure that the heifer will win if the big guy in on the halter? And in the junior show the kid is listed as owner but in the open show it is kid and Herbs Happy Ranch.....am I cynical or a realist?It often looks like the goal is to win (at all costs) rather than teach the kid something.......I think it has sort of gotten out of hand

 

[shortyjock89]

I've been on all ends of this situation.  I show calves for people at the state level that don't have kids old enough to show at the State Fair.  I meet them at the show and get to know their calves.  On show day, I go over and fit, clip and get the calves ready.  I show the calves, take them back to the stalls and wash out the glue.(These calves are in a different breed than my own, so there is no conflict there)After the show, we each go home until the next big show. 

I have also let a guy show one of my calves.  He had never shown before and wanted to really badly.  So, we struck up a deal.  That summer, he would help us show my calves by coming to my house as much as possible and learn how to be around show cattle.  He got really good with the calves and by State Fair time, he was taking care of the calves we left at home (rinsing, feeding, and checking calves).  So after that , we let him pick out his own steer from a group of our best.  He picked a nice one.  The deal was that he could show the steer as much as he wanted to and that all the winnings would be his, but feed costs had to be taken out first.  Well, we started the show season up and he got reserve champion Shorthorn with him behind me.  After that, I guess he had enough because he never showed him again.  Our county fair is in June and the steer looked good all summer, but never left the barn again.  The kid made a little money and got alot of experience, and the steer sure does taste good now! 

One thing that I really hate is when kids get their steer at the show.  The real owners do all the dang work..I don't get the point of that...you spend all this money on a calf and then just leave him in some other guy's cooler.  If you're going to do that, why don't you just build your own cooler and do it yourself..it's alot more fun that way..

 

[cowz]

COWZ: 

If you have a rule that an animal has to be bred by the junior, you'll eliminate probably 95% of the kids that actually show cattle through 4-H and FFA.  Most don't come from families that own land and most certainly don't breed show cattle themselves.  In the example you gave, the kids that can't compete against the cattle from the big ranch just wouldn't be showing at all.  It's a lot harder to breed one than buy one. 

As long as those folks are making those kids have an education experience and making them shoulder the load on the work, I would actually commend them.  You'd (figuratively) be showing against those cattle anyway if they were outright sold.  It gets back to the question of why do you show?  To win or because you love doing it.  If you put in the time, pay your dues, and be patient, you'll do your share of winning in the end.

Just to be clear about my last post....I did not intend to sound like a whiner....it is what it is!   Just to see the proud faces of the older couple who hosts these kids makes ya feel good!  I just thought it was food for conversation.

I dont care who you are, rich or poor, there was always a someone who taught you something or helped you learn!!!  So, I think that if the kids are helping in the barn, are being taught how to do something, it is alright with me.

 

[chambero]

I didn't think you were whining.  Most of us are extremely competetive by nature and don't like to lose.  That is the way we are supposed to be.  We just have to make ourselves remember why we really do this. 

For me personally, I've always just loved going to the barn and messing with the calves.  The shows are the least part of it for me.  I have always liked to spend my spare time at the barn (which probably makes me weird). Nothing better to do on a Friday night when football season isn't going on. 

My son's first set of steers aren't going to win anything big.  He'll get clobbered by the $20K steers that are becoming so prevalent down here.  He has decent steers, but they aren't going to be massive enough to win in Texas.  But our priority this year is on having gentle ones for him he can learn on.  He has fun learning to wash, brush, and lead them.  And I don't have to worry about his head being separated from his shoulders.  I'm not going to like it if he gets the gate, but he probably won't care which is all that matters.  In all actuality, he'll be glad he won't have to sell the steer that day if it happens (although it'll only be a one week reprieve till county). 

 

[SKF]

We have other kids show our extra heifers but they have to come out and work with the calf and when they show them they are responsiable for their own enty fees then they keep what ever they win. We only do this with kids who can not afford a calf and after a year they need to purchase their own calf. We will sell one cheap and have even donated a steer to one kid so she could make some money to get started which I don't mind doing if they have proved that this is something they love doing. I don't look at that as cheating but we do have a few breeders who pay kids a flat fee of around $500 to show up at shows and show a steer for them and then take them to the fair sell them and the breeder keeps all the money minus fee. This I feel is cheating becasue some buyer is spending very good money buying a steer thinking that they are helping some kid and instead some greedy grown man is pocketing the money plus these steers are keept and raised by the adult the kids never see them except at the shows. I think when you talking thousand of dollars the animal needs to be owned and raised by the kids! As you can imaging thses steers are always top quality because winning grand is were you make the money. Two years in a row at one of the fairs we show at a rent-a -kid has won and one of these breeders usaully has more than one rent-a -kid and will bid against his own calf to run up the bidding.

 

[DL]

The shows are the least part of it for me.  I have always liked to spend my spare time at the barn (which probably makes me weird). Nothing better to do on a Friday night when football season isn't going on. 

I'm with you chambero - I'd rather be in the barn (even if it is football season) - if that's wierd count me in!  ;D

 

[Clubcalfshowgirl]

Ok! I am a JR. and i show commercial calves. I had a breeder who bought a heifer and he showed her at one show and our FFA program at school took over after the first show. Ok so she came to our school and i decided that i wanted to show her so i asked my ag teacher and he said ya so i took over the care of this heifer she stayed at our school but it was up to me if i wanted her to have hair and how good i wanted her to look. But the owner paid for feed and i paid for entrys and i got class winnings and he got grand or reserve money. Well after a few months of her showing i decided to take her home, owner still paying for feed. Well as she was at my house i groomed,washed, feed, cleaned stalls. Would yall consider this cheating?? oh ya and at shows ME and MY ag teacher got out there and he clipped and then we started fitting, we had a team going on after the first 2 shows. I mean the owner didnt see this calf for 6 months atleast as i did ALL the work and showed and everything. Is this considered cheating as this calf didnt belong to me??? 

CCSG - NOT CHEATING IN MY BOOK! DL