Itty Bitty Angus calves

[DL]

There have been 20 reports of (what I am calling) itty bitty babies - these calves weigh between 20 and 30 pounds, are full term and may be born alive. They are Angus or commercial with Angus base and all so far have traced to a well known Angus bull. They have been reported across the country and the suspicion is that there is a genetic component. These calves (by picture) are fine bones and the meta carpus and tarsus seem longer and angled out, head is larger than expected and has a wider base, calves actually look normal but small at first glance ...most die shortly after birth. Although Dr Beever has ears from 5 there has not been a necropsy to characterize the pathology - so a fresh calf for necropsy would be a grand thing. We are on the look out for these calves,i f you should have one please save the ear for Dr B and if you are close to a U or state lab take the calf for necropsy - if you have any questions please email me

 

[red]

question I might get in trouble over but here goes. When the defects were known about the Maines it seemed that some Angus people were warning buyers of the defects & selling angus bulls. Are Angus breeders now letting people know of the defects in their breed?

Red

 

[GLZ]

I don't expect a response, but was curious.

Which bull?

 

[bluffcountrycattle]

Red...there has been a lot of press and awareness of the angus defects, and articles in magazines and papers that I was surprised to see them in.  They also have a notice on their site looking for samples on the Hydro and Fawn calves to pinpoint the bad genes.  This was the first I heard of the itty bitty's though.  I think the association is handling the situation the best it can at this point, until further tests can confirm the defects and affected parties.  The breeders seem to be handling the AM tested animals differently judging by the spring sale catalogs...either no mention of it, or providing complete info on the problem and carrier animals.  Even saw a catalog with tested AMC carriers that were still in the sale.  So, while there is a way to go, they seem to be addressing the problems...

 

[red]

that's good to know but what about non Angus breeders buying for the first time? I was just curious how it was being relayed to buyers. Are all carriers identified?

Red

 

[Show Steaks]

I honestly wouldnt mind buying a carrier female. I 100% garuntee you she will be cheaper with the same genetics and epd's.
Breed her smart and use non carrier bloodlines.

Just wondering if they let a carrier register?

 

[TJ]

OK, I'm going to admit it...

When I 1st read the title of the tread & the first few words in the original post, my 1st thoughts were that some Angus breeders were using some of the smaller Lowline Angus bulls on the down-low.   

It's amazing how the Angus breed is getting punched & jabbed, left & right with all these defect coming out into the public right now.  The sad part is, how many Maintainers, Shorty Pluses, Balancers, Optimizers, & all the other part Angus composites under the sun, might be carrying some of these defects too?   Almost sounds like we all need to linebreed for a while & eliminate all these genetic defects.         

 

[bluffcountrycattle]

that's good to know but what about non Angus breeders buying for the first time? I was just curious how it was being relayed to buyers. Are all carriers identified?

Red

I believe a lot of the bigger operations that can handle it financially are pulling all tested AMC carriers from the sales, and most likely selling them to the salebarn or privately.  A couple smaller operations that had AMC carriers in the sale strongly stated "for terminal use only".  So, buyers should be aware.  As for the other defects, there still isn't a test and rumors are only that...so it is difficult to address those situations and carrier lines until we have the proof and test available.  Most breeders have taken the stance that they will stand behind their cattle 100%...if a test is developed soon, and their purchase turns out to be a carrier of a defect down the road, most breeders will want to do the right thing to keep their customers happy.

 

[Cattledog]

that's good to know but what about non Angus breeders buying for the first time? I was just curious how it was being relayed to buyers. Are all carriers identified?

Red

I Raise angus and am fortunate thus far to not have any carriers.  We will see when the hydro testing comes out.  If I had an AM calf I probably wouldn't relay it to the buyer because the buyer would be buying a steer.    I would never sell a carrier heifer for seedstock unless someone had to have her and I would make it known that she has a genetic defect.  You just can't make it in this industry unless you completely honest about your cattle.  You may have short term gains by telling a whopper but it will come back to haunt you!

Here is another thing to think about.  If someone has just an awesome angus female I can see them actually crossing with some clubby line.  I think this could be a big problem down the rode for the club calf industry.  Just think TH, PHA, AM, Hydro, FCS, and possiblY itty bitty.  The angus defects will eventually work their way out of the registered angus breed and into something else because people just won't throw away genetics.  I may be a contributor to this problem if one of my cows(My best one!) comes down with hydro.  I will breed her clubby and hope for bulls too steer.  If I get a heifer and somebody has to have her it is up to them what to do from there.  Any way you look at it the angus breed will just continue to get stronger.  I am not sure if it is right but it is just a fact.  There are too many of these black critters running around for it to kill the breed.

 

[aj]

I will let my black hided buddies down at the coop coffee table. I assume the itty bitty deal isn't proven bullet proof assumption. It must look like it is a genetic problem. There are always enviroment deffects and sound like the am,fawn calf, and dwarfism, whatever are being confused with each other. I assume thats why the itty bitty was idscovered was that people were wondering if they had a ccs defect. I heard MIF might be in the scenario of carriers but they probably more info to make sure. I think ten years from now the black hide will be held synonomous  with defects. I think the black hide fad is is such a mistake. People will be laughing at themselves and wondering how could we have been so stupid to jump on the black hided train. jmo The guys I know won't believe anything till it is in the Angus Journal though.

 

[Cattledog]

I think the black hide fad is is such a mistake. People will be laughing at themselves and wondering how could we have been so stupid to jump on the black hided train. jmo The guys I know won't believe anything till it is in the Angus Journal though.

If someone were to tell me that the Angus breed has absolutely no genetic defects in it before all of this stuff came out I would have told them they were crazy.  The number of Angus out there pretty much tells you that there is a pretty big chance of there being defects. Look at how many genetic defects we as humans have.  With addressing these defects you will eliminate them.  There will be more defects come out of every breed...it is just proven science.  Seriously, in most operations managing scours is a bigger problem than managing carriers.

 

[DL]

At present there is insufficinet information to name bulls or lines

 

[JSchroeder]

Red, every Angus catalog I've seen since data was published lists know cattle as "AMF" or "AMC" in the pedigrees.

 

[klintdog]

Around here quite a few of the catalogs are making no mention of the AM status on the animals. I've also seen more then one of the 'big boys' catalog with no information.

 

[red]

Red, every Angus catalog I've seen since data was published lists know cattle as "AMF" or "AMC" in the pedigrees.

Ohio must be really behind the 8-ball. I just got the Ohio Cattleman's magizine & some large bull sales but no mention of defects.
Sorry I asked the question but after seeing the Maines thrown under the bus I was curious. I'm glad that most breeders will make it right. How far back does this go though?

Red

 

[ELBEE]

Found out yesterday from Agri-genomics office there should be a hydrocephalus test within the next 6 months. Found out today from Dr. Steffen's office that the defect described decades ago in the Shorthorn breed "is a unique phenotype from the ongoing hydrocephalus problem being investigated in the Angus breed". Just what we need 2 separate gene pools resulting in the same clinical defect. So if you cross a carrier Angus to a carrier Shorthorn you shouldn't see the defect until the offspring end up with both alees?

           

 

[red]

do these defects run the same way as TH/PHA in % of carriers?  ))

Red

 

[Cattledog]

Red, every Angus catalog I've seen since data was published lists know cattle as "AMF" or "AMC" in the pedigrees.

Ohio must be really behind the 8-ball. I just got the Ohio Cattleman's magizine & some large bull sales but no mention of defects.
Sorry I asked the question but after seeing the Maines thrown under the bus I was curious. I'm glad that most breeders will make it right. How far back does this go though?

Red

This goes pretty far.  The last I heard Rito 9J9 was in the mix.  He was used like 15 years ago...maybe farther back.  I was talking to one old boy and he told me he doesn't care how far back it goes as long as the bulls he buys are clean.  After thinking about what he said it made alot of sense.  Why should you care if the cow or bull are possitive if the offspring are clean.  Since 1680 is a major bloodline in the Angus breed this is going to be the stance the association will take.

I consider myself a small player in the Angus breed and I want all of these defects out in the open.  If I have more than 3 cows as carriers it will hurt.  

So, when do you think we will see the first triple...quadruple(hydro) carrier club calf bull?

 

[ELBEE]

do these defects run the same way as TH/PHA in % of carriers?  ))

Red
[/quote


As I understand it, (simple recessive).

 

[CM Cattle]

The angus breed is having a lot of trouble these days.