Johnny Football

[blackdiamond]

Consistency: Reliability of uniformity

The genetics of these bulls are mongrelized: v. crossed between different breeds, groups, or varieties, especially a mixture that is or appears to be incongruous: adj. inconsistent - that's why you have full sib calves that look nothing alike.

I would say they have a better chance of being consistent than others. There dam is pretty proven with all 6 of her calves this year averaged over 40,000. And they are not full sibs Johnny Football is a monopoly and TT is a HW which could also be why they look different because they breed different and are bred different

vut they're sires are father and son...  therefore, still sharing a large percent of the identical genetics...

back to a lack of consistency.  and it has nothing to do with commercial or clubby.. consistent is needed in both.

 

[frostback]

So consistency means only that calves look alike?

 

[knabe]

So consistency means only that calves look alike?

consistency is whatever is passed on with respect to random.

clearly there's an effect with these bulls.

my biggest complaint with them is that they are over selected for skeletal width behind with less regard for muscle.

i think really the only problem with these bulls is keeping back females, as the sires are clearly terminal.  yes, there's the oddball female everyone claims exist, but they are passed on less with respect to random.

they are like a pendulum, more androgenous look, less male or female look.

 

[Quick fire]

Consistency: Reliability of uniformity

The genetics of these bulls are mongrelized: v. crossed between different breeds, groups, or varieties, especially a mixture that is or appears to be incongruous: adj. inconsistent - that's why you have full sib calves that look nothing alike.

And one sire is HALF angus.
I would say they have a better chance of being consistent than others. There dam is pretty proven with all 6 of her calves this year averaged over 40,000. And they are not full sibs Johnny Football is a monopoly and TT is a HW which could also be why they look different because they breed different and are bred different

vut they're sires are father and son...  therefore, still sharing a large percent of the identical genetics...

back to a lack of consistency.  and it has nothing to do with commercial or clubby.. consistent is needed in both.

 

[RyanChandler]

Consistency: Reliability of uniformity

The genetics of these bulls are mongrelized: v. crossed between different breeds, groups, or varieties, especially a mixture that is or appears to be incongruous: adj. inconsistent - that's why you have full sib calves that look nothing alike.

Could not agree with u more and that was a great definition. However, in the market they r serving their inconsistency is crucial. For in the club calf market it is a show of outliers, its not a pen of cattle, it is one outstanding individual. And the fact that this one mongrelized female made two prospective outstanding individuals from 2 different matings is commendable. In addition the 'inconsistency' of those two offspring is what makes them so valuable. They are different in type and color which opens the door to a wide variety of breeding opportunity.  

I see your point of view in that these cattle do not fit the commercial cattle market, but that is simply not who they are targeting. For the club calf industry those 2 bulls are outstanding individuals and that should not be taken away from them.

The problem is because their genetics are so mongreled, their chance of replicating themselves with any degree of certainty is unlikely.  

 

[vc]

Here is how I see it, the club calf side is not looking for consistency they are looking for something that stands out, EPD's are not even a consideration. If they could produce sexed male semen how many heat wave heifers do you think there would have been?  That special calf that combines everything you are looking for in a show calf is what their goal is not a flush that all the calves look like clones, you want the one that can enter the ring and make jaws drop. The guys that make a habit of this know how many calves that will just go to the sales yard until they get the one (this would be no way to produce seed stock or commercial outfit) I think where the b/:;(ing comes from is when the seed stock and commercial calves try and compete in the ring with a club calf they more times than not stand behind them, and if they do beet them the calf is not  one that was uniform it is one that was different than the other calves .
I enjoy watching a good class of breed or club cattle, I just don't try and compare the 2.

 

[frostback]

So consistency means calves that look like the sire?

 

[RyanChandler]

The club calf side ABSOLUTELY is looking for consistency.  Anyone that uses Johnny Football hopes every damn one of their calves looks exactly like him.  Unfortunately, because the genetics of JF are not stabalized and his geneology is composed of not only different BREEDS but different phenoTYPES as well, the chances of him replicating himself is slim.  He will sire many calves. Some that take after him, some after his sire, some after his dam, some after his PGS some after his MGS and so on.  And because not only are these animals different breeds but types,  the offspring will be highly inconsistent (to each other) not only colorwise but phenotype as well.  IF these people would learn how to linebreed and operate with stabilized genetics, it wouldn't be such a crapshoot and there would be less waiting for "the one."  Look at show heifers- they want the trump look so what do they do? LINEBREED Trump.
Great promoters no doubt.  Cattlemen? I don't know.

So consistency means calves that look like the sire?

If you have a goal in mind, the sire and dam should be of the same type.  THis is where many more problems come in where the breeder tries to mate two extremes (fire and ice) to make a middle of the road.  It doesn't work like that. The dominant genes are expressed, they're not blended.

 

[qbcattle]

I know exactly where Yall are coming from when talking consistency and the mongrel factor. I have devoted a great deal of time into consistently making great ones. But even if I did and they had to show against one another only one would end up a winner . With that in mind it takes an extra punch and we often find that x factor if u will in the hybrid vigor of a mongrel. Those 2 bulls could be bred to pb cows and the calf crop should be fairly consistent.

Breeding these things is more complicated then most think and o.e has to be careful with crosbreeding.  But purebred and most 2 breed crosses are not goin to give u enough punch to play.

 

[Quick fire]

Monopoly took off because of consistency. When I breed to monopoly I do not want them to look like him, I place him on a powerful, big boned, good framed cow and let him do the rest. You chose sires that compliment the female you are breeding, consistency is huge, that is why HW is failing away and you see others rise up. However, it's hard to beat a great HW.

Faiding*

 

[sizzler14]

Line breeding and single trait selection will ruin any herd. Leave the club calf people alone.lol they make more money than most people do. I dont understand why your so worried about cattle being consistent. Your profile pic is a shorthorn. only thing consistent about them is they look like aa damn dairy cow when you turn the, out on pasture and they milk like a heat wave heifer

 

[RyanChandler]

Hybrid vigor is maximized at the 3rd cross. After that regression occurs.  If you want that kick bred a purebred bull to a first cross cow. Using animals with mongrelized genetics diminishes hybrid vigor considerably.

 

[RyanChandler]

Line breeding and single trait selection will ruin any herd. Leave the club calf people alone.lol they make more money than most people do. I dont understand why your so worried about cattle being consistent. Your profile pic is a shorthorn. only thing consistent about them is they look like aa damn dairy cow when you turn the, out on pasture and they milk like a heat wave heifer

You've officially lost all credibility.  Your cattle sense is nil.  How'd that coon footed heifer in your avitar do?

 

[qbcattle]

Hybrid vigor is maximized at the 3rd cross. After that regression occurs.  If you want that kick bred a purebred bull to a first cross cow. Using animals with mongrelized genetics diminishes hybrid vigor considerably.

And what do u get when u maximize hybrid vigor? Max performance , which 9 times out of 10 will give u a calf that is a frame score to big for the show string..........so therefore that can as well shoot u in the foot.

 

[blackdiamond]

Line breeding and single trait selection will ruin any herd. Leave the club calf people alone.lol they make more money than most people do. I dont understand why your so worried about cattle being consistent. Your profile pic is a shorthorn. only thing consistent about them is they look like aa damn dairy cow when you turn the, out on pasture and they milk like a heat wave heifer

that ranks right up with some of the dumb stuff I say---  no, I lied... that is by far the stupidest thing I've ever read...

Line breeding is the key to success of anything, without it, you have nothing.  It doesn't matter if you are a seedstock, commercial, replicative, or whatever kind of producer, or reproducer you might be.

If fake money counts, count me in-- I'll sell plenty of 'expensive' ones... 

Here's what I don't understand about club calf people who claim they don't want 'consistency'.  If you don't want it, then why would you continue to breed with certain bulls, that CONSISTANTELY sire great ones?  That's the biggest case of the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Line breeding and single trait selection will ruin any herd. Leave the club calf people alone.lol they make more money than most people do. I dont understand why your so worried about cattle being consistent. Your profile pic is a shorthorn. only thing consistent about them is they look like aa damn dairy cow when you turn the, out on pasture and they milk like a heat wave heifer

God I really hope you were jokeing...  ))

 

[vc]

Bar I've seen pictures of some of your heifers you are getting consistency in your program, and must have a good idea on what you are trying to do, I just wish you would let the rest of us do what we want with our goals in mind. If I was breeding for pure breds or replacement cows the bull choices would be different.
Blackdiomond, based off of some of your calves you  have some work to do to come close to x-bars calves or most club calf breeders.
I would like to know, does it make you all feel better about your cattle to come onto a show cattle based web site and bash show cattle, or are you tired of your calves not placing in the top at shows?

 

[blackdiamond]

are you tired of your calves not placing in the top at shows?
[/quote

The only calf we've had shown-- was champion at MO State fair, plus show...

Sorry, we're not into showing, try again!

 

[sizzler14]

Back in the 1940's, Dairy cattle didnt produce as much milk but on average the bred-back percentage was 67% on the first try and 92% on the second try. Due to consistent line breeding which after done more than twice leads to single trait selection focusing on cows that milked well, they have went from cows that produced 35-40 pounds of milk to cows that produce over 100 pounds of milk. Which is great, but the problem occurs with the bred back percentage on average is now 19% on fist try and 32% on second try. If you choose to line breed once, that is fine, but if you choose to do it more than that, you will have one good trait and a bunch of crappy ones. It is okay in pigs whch can turn a trait around in 2 years, but for a trait to truly be able to be shown, university studies show that it takes around 5 years for cattle. So although you people think the post was dumb, that is fine please continue to line breed more than once for consistenty, but then I wll applaud you as it takes you around 5-6 years to fix all the other problems with your cattle.  (clapping)

 

[blackdiamond]

Back in the 1940's, Dairy cattle didnt produce as much milk but on average the bred-back percentage was 67% on the first try and 92% on the second try. Due to consistent line breeding which after done more than twice leads to single trait selection focusing on cows that milked well, they have went from cows that produced 35-40 pounds of milk to cows that produce over 100 pounds of milk. Which is great, but the problem occurs with the bred back percentage on average is now 19% on fist try and 32% on second try. If you choose to line breed once, that is fine, but if you choose to do it more than that, you will have one good trait and a bunch of crappy ones. It is okay in pigs whch can turn a trait around in 2 years, but for a trait to truly be able to be shown, university studies show that it takes around 5 years for cattle. So although you people think the post was dumb, that is fine please continue to line breed more than once for consistenty, but then I wll applaud you as it takes you around 5-6 years to fix all the other problems with your cattle.  (clapping)

that's bullshit..

I grew up on a dairy farm, and the breed back ability is compromised for the same reason that it's horrible in first calf beef heifer's...  Too much production and body draining down.

I know a guy who's not used an outcross in 50 years, bullshit again. 

I've got 4 generations here that are half brother/ half sister matings, not seen any recession yet. 

Linebreeding is successful if you start with good stuff, and keep the crap out of the gene pool, but if you have a bunch of junk hiding in the woodpile-- it would be better if you did linebreed and brought that crap to the surface to be culled away...

Maybe if more people would linebreed, genetic defects like TH and PHA would have surfaced before the problems did...