June 07 Heifer Out of SS KABOOM

[chambero]

I don't know very many people that raise shorthorns, but the ones that I do know tend to feed them more like pets than "cows".  

I think a whole of high birthweight issues has to do with feeding the cows too much when they are pregnant.  I think that is just as big of a factor as genetics, especially combined with cows that are too small to begin with.

We have larger-framed cows than a typical "club calf" operation, but we haven't seen calving problems even when using black bulls known for high birth weights.  But our cows run on native pasture year round with supplemental feeding of corn cake during the winter (about 4 lbs per cow a day).  They aren't getting anything but grass during the spring and summer when they are in the second and third trimesters.

The only time I've used a shorthorn bull was on a couple of colored crossbred cows with a Shortie called Lights Out who is supposedly horrible on birth weight.  With only a sample size of two, the cows have spit them out just fine and haven't been any larger than anything else we use - AI or natural.  Maybe we've just been lucky.

 

[Jill]

I do know we had 100 - 102 pound birth weights on our Radio Actives, but they had no problems having them and they were the 1st 2 steers to sell.  Don't have any experience with Kaboom, but I can tell you most that are only registering 2-3 head per bull are your normal average breeder these days, we have 49 that calved last year and 3 was the most we registered out of any 1 bull.  How many calves did you register out of your herd GB?

 

[knabe]

hmm, this seems to indicate some hybrid vigor for BW between breeds as opposed to within a breed

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN165

also, the reporting of only registered calves might skew the numbers a little bit, especially at the rate of only 6% calves registered if jill's is a typical herd, which is probably even a high number.  hmm, whole herd reporting seems like a reasonable gesture after all.  never happen though, and it'll just create a whole new way to skew numbers.  it seems reasonable that if one herd is selected to be moderate on BW alone, that when you took a bull out of that herd and put him in one that had less pressure, one would EXPECT to have more variability.  it doesn't have to get personal or bull bashing.

 

[C-CROSS]

Our were all out of purebred cows and I am sure they had something to do with it, however when you breed them to numerous other bulls and dont have 130-140 pund births something is wrong.  We do not run a show cattle string, our cows run out in the pasture 1000 acres in s (pop)ize so lack of exercis is not a facture and neither is fat.  I am glad you had good luck, just like verything , not everyone is going to be happy.

 

[knabe]

which is why it's useful to have actual numbers, as opposed to an epd.

a breed association could easily do this with an application that would render a scatter plot and have it updated annually.  one could also link each one of the data points, and if enough data was there, perhaps even have clues to what crosses with what animals forward in the pedigree were creating problems.  but, most due increases will probably go to ads and travel expenses for the association into areas with little penetration (not that that's a bad thing)

 

[garybob]

I do know we had 100 - 102 pound birth weights on our Radio Actives, but they had no problems having them and they were the 1st 2 steers to sell.  Don't have any experience with Kaboom, but I can tell you most that are only registering 2-3 head per bull are your normal average breeder these days, we have 49 that calved last year and 3 was the most we registered out of any 1 bull.   How many calves did you register out of your herd GB?

Haven't registered a calf in about 3 years. Currently, the remnants of my herd, are being run with Dad's herd, as Commercial cows. Black (horned, red carrier)Gelbvieh Bull is the current Sire-in-Service. Am partnering with Brian Banzet(of Chetopa, Kansas) on a Flush. It took a while, but I've found a Breeder who shares my same Philosophies. That, in itself, was a vast undertaking. Brian is rougher on his Registered Shorthorn Cows than the Commercial guys down here, in Arkansas, are with thier cows. We are flushing a good, outcross bloodline Cow (May Hill Jeff X J&R Fortisimo)to Dunbeacon Venture. I plan on taking my share of the heifers to either Canadian or Australian Bulls to produce, as You said, "Cattle that more 'fit' "what I'm trying to achieve.
Tired of people like You, Ma'am, who breed a few "Shorthorns"to sell as Club Calves telling Me, how to do things. At one time, Ma'am, I registered about 15 calves a year. The most ever registerd was 17. I concede, that's not many, however, I always reported BW(actual weights, not "tape-measured" estimates) and WW (by way of Sale Barn Check stub--federally certified scales), and waited forever on the papers(which, usually came back with parentheses around the EPD's anyway, making my efforts useless). While you folks that do what you guys do, got more faster service out of the ASA Staff. I think this is due to the $$influence$$ the Show Ring has upon the breed.

Just my thoughts,

GB

 

[garybob]

which is why it's useful to have actual numbers, as opposed to an epd.

a breed association could easily do this with an application that would render a scatter plot and have it updated annually.  one could also link each one of the data points, and if enough data was there, perhaps even have clues to what crosses with what animals forward in the pedigree were creating problems.  but, most due increases will probably go to ads and travel expenses for the association into areas with little penetration (not that that's a bad thing)

Had an AG-Econ Professor say this funny, little quote.

:"I'm an Economist. Data are very important to my Profession. However, ladies and gentlemen, you need to keep one thing in mind, when analysing any set of numbers. Figures Lie, when Liars Figure" John L. Goodwin

You younger folks out in Western OK at Panhandle State University might know him as the Chief Administrator at that School in Guymon. He was in the AG-Econ/Agribusiness Dept at UA-Fayetteville from the 80's through the later part of the '90's.
GB

 

[kanshow]

Nice Heifer!!

We've been in this business for a long time and can tell ya one thing..  never depend on anything being the same.  There are years when birthweights are consistantly higher and other years they aren't.    Seen heifers spit out a 100+ calf and cows get hung up on a lighter calf in a hip lock.  YOu never know.  We do try to stick with proven CE bulls on heifers...    3C Full FIgures & Limit Up are two that have been essentially problem free for us.  The main thing is to get a marketable calf on the ground without killing your heifer that first year.  After that, we feel like we can breed her whatever way she needs.

Hey GB.. watch those Gelbviehs and their pelvic size. 

 

[garybob]

Nice Heifer!!

We've been in this business for a long time and can tell ya one thing..  never depend on anything being the same.   There are years when birthweights are consistantly higher and other years they aren't.    Seen heifers spit out a 100+ calf and cows get hung up on a lighter calf in a hip lock.   YOu never know.   We do try to stick with proven CE bulls on heifers...    3C Full FIgures & Limit Up are two that have been essentially problem free for us.   The main thing is to get a marketable calf on the ground without killing your heifer that first year.   After that, we feel like we can breed her whatever way she needs.

Hey GB.. watch those Gelbviehs and their pelvic size.   

Not my Sire-of-Choice. One ting I have noticed, is, that my Shorthorns, and Daddy's older crossbred cows with every breed under the sun in 'em, don't have a lick o' trouble. The 3/4 and 7/8 Angus cows ( 3rd calf, now) We have to pay close attention to--they just don't have any "room" for a calf that is bigger than 6% of their mature weight. That's weighing BOTH the Live ones and the "Lost". We have at least two breach calves each year, but ONLY from the Blacks. The Shorthorns ( with Rodeo Drive, Tar Heel Drive, and Waukauru Carnegie in their pedigrees), Brafords, Charolais ( we got somwe good yellow-baldies), Simmental-Angus Crosses, don't have a moment's concern when calving to Him.

GB

 

[KDSC]

where can I find pictures of 3C Full FIgures & Limit Up at??? thanks a lot

 

[Doc]

I do know we had 100 - 102 pound birth weights on our Radio Actives, but they had no problems having them and they were the 1st 2 steers to sell.  Don't have any experience with Kaboom, but I can tell you most that are only registering 2-3 head per bull are your normal average breeder these days, we have 49 that calved last year and 3 was the most we registered out of any 1 bull.   How many calves did you register out of your herd GB?

Haven't registered a calf in about 3 years. Currently, the remnants of my herd, are being run with Dad's herd, as Commercial cows. Black (horned, red carrier)Gelbvieh Bull is the current Sire-in-Service. Am partnering with Brian Banzet(of Chetopa, Kansas) on a Flush. It took a while, but I've found a Breeder who shares my same Philosophies. That, in itself, was a vast undertaking. Brian is rougher on his Registered Shorthorn Cows than the Commercial guys down here, in Arkansas, are with thier cows. We are flushing a good, outcross bloodline Cow (May Hill Jeff X J&R Fortisimo)to Dunbeacon Venture. I plan on taking my share of the heifers to either Canadian or Australian Bulls to produce, as You said, "Cattle that more 'fit' "what I'm trying to achieve.
Tired of people like You, Ma'am, who breed a few "Shorthorns"to sell as Club Calves telling Me, how to do things. At one time, Ma'am, I registered about 15 calves a year. The most ever registerd was 17. I concede, that's not many, however, I always reported BW(actual weights, not "tape-measured" estimates) and WW (by way of Sale Barn Check stub--federally certified scales), and waited forever on the papers(which, usually came back with parentheses around the EPD's anyway, making my efforts useless). While you folks that do what you guys do, got more faster service out of the ASA Staff. I think this is due to the $$influence$$ the Show Ring has upon the breed.

GB, I don't see where she was telling you how to do anything. I think you need to take a chill pill. All she said was in an average herd most people will use 1 particular bull on every 2-3 cows. I, myself will try to mate each cow to what bull will work best on them. So in my herd of 25 cows ,I will A.I. to 4 or 5 different bulls , put eggs in 4-6 head, & breed a few to the bull.
Also in regards to your earlier post I don't understand how you can say that everybody who tries a Shorthorn for the first time has a negative experience. I've got plenty of people around me who tried Shorthorns for the 1st time & love them!!!!!!!! If every experience was negative there wouldn't be a breed.JMO

 

[KDSC]

I agree with Doc, this board has made me want to try shorthorns, espeically Shotyjocks perfect timeing heifer, and Doc's heifer in his avatar

 

[Jill]

I do know we had 100 - 102 pound birth weights on our Radio Actives, but they had no problems having them and they were the 1st 2 steers to sell.  Don't have any experience with Kaboom, but I can tell you most that are only registering 2-3 head per bull are your normal average breeder these days, we have 49 that calved last year and 3 was the most we registered out of any 1 bull.   How many calves did you register out of your herd GB?

Haven't registered a calf in about 3 years. Currently, the remnants of my herd, are being run with Dad's herd, as Commercial cows. Black (horned, red carrier)Gelbvieh Bull is the current Sire-in-Service. Am partnering with Brian Banzet(of Chetopa, Kansas) on a Flush. It took a while, but I've found a Breeder who shares my same Philosophies. That, in itself, was a vast undertaking. Brian is rougher on his Registered Shorthorn Cows than the Commercial guys down here, in Arkansas, are with thier cows. We are flushing a good, outcross bloodline Cow (May Hill Jeff X J&R Fortisimo)to Dunbeacon Venture. I plan on taking my share of the heifers to either Canadian or Australian Bulls to produce, as You said, "Cattle that more 'fit' "what I'm trying to achieve.
Tired of people like You, Ma'am, who breed a few "Shorthorns"to sell as Club Calves telling Me, how to do things. At one time, Ma'am, I registered about 15 calves a year. The most ever registerd was 17. I concede, that's not many, however, I always reported BW(actual weights, not "tape-measured" estimates) and WW (by way of Sale Barn Check stub--federally certified scales), and waited forever on the papers(which, usually came back with parentheses around the EPD's anyway, making my efforts useless). While you folks that do what you guys do, got more faster service out of the ASA Staff. I think this is due to the $$influence$$ the Show Ring has upon the breed.

Just my thoughts,

GB

I would prefer that I not be referred to as ma'am unless there a wham bam thank you  in front of it. 
I do not raise Shorthorns, do not care to, you actually have no idea what my business is, so please don't tell me how I operate it.

 

[Jill]

I do know we had 100 - 102 pound birth weights on our Radio Actives, but they had no problems having them and they were the 1st 2 steers to sell.  Don't have any experience with Kaboom, but I can tell you most that are only registering 2-3 head per bull are your normal average breeder these days, we have 49 that calved last year and 3 was the most we registered out of any 1 bull.   How many calves did you register out of your herd GB?

Haven't registered a calf in about 3 years. Currently, the remnants of my herd, are being run with Dad's herd, as Commercial cows. Black (horned, red carrier)Gelbvieh Bull is the current Sire-in-Service. Am partnering with Brian Banzet(of Chetopa, Kansas) on a Flush. It took a while, but I've found a Breeder who shares my same Philosophies. That, in itself, was a vast undertaking. Brian is rougher on his Registered Shorthorn Cows than the Commercial guys down here, in Arkansas, are with thier cows. We are flushing a good, outcross bloodline Cow (May Hill Jeff X J&R Fortisimo)to Dunbeacon Venture. I plan on taking my share of the heifers to either Canadian or Australian Bulls to produce, as You said, "Cattle that more 'fit' "what I'm trying to achieve.
Tired of people like You, Ma'am, who breed a few "Shorthorns"to sell as Club Calves telling Me, how to do things. At one time, Ma'am, I registered about 15 calves a year. The most ever registerd was 17. I concede, that's not many, however, I always reported BW(actual weights, not "tape-measured" estimates) and WW (by way of Sale Barn Check stub--federally certified scales), and waited forever on the papers(which, usually came back with parentheses around the EPD's anyway, making my efforts useless). While you folks that do what you guys do, got more faster service out of the ASA Staff. I think this is due to the $$influence$$ the Show Ring has upon the breed.

GB, I don't see where she was telling you how to do anything. I think you need to take a chill pill. All she said was in an average herd most people will use 1 particular bull on every 2-3 cows. I, myself will try to mate each cow to what bull will work best on them. So in my herd of 25 cows ,I will A.I. to 4 or 5 different bulls , put eggs in 4-6 head, & breed a few to the bull.
Also in regards to your earlier post I don't understand how you can say that everybody who tries a Shorthorn for the first time has a negative experience. I've got plenty of people around me who tried Shorthorns for the 1st time & love them!!!!!!!! If every experience was negative there wouldn't be a breed.JMO

Thank you Doc, that was exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

[NHR]

SS Kaboom per Shorthorn.org

EPDS:

Calving Ease = +2.2 (this is very good)
Birthweight = +1.0 (which is below the breed average and very good)

This is with 72 herds and 113 progeny.

Why don't we let C-Cross tell His/Her experiences, in detail? Perhaps, Shorthorn cows were not used, and the higher BW of the Shorthorn calf, combined with the often-times lower pelvic area of Black-based cows, works togwether to create a problem when folks decide to try a Shorthorn Bull for the first time.

EXACTLY.....72 HERDS........only 113 progeny. This tells me two things.
1.) Small herds breeding less than two females to him. The more larger the contemporary groups, the more accurate and meaningful data.
2.)These people probably bred three or four to him, and, aren't reporting the dead ones.

Just my thoughts,
GB

The 72 herds and 113 progeny were from Spring of 2007.

Right now at this moment there are 253 registered progeny.

I dont register all my progeny out of AI Bulls. The reason I dont is because I dont want to pay the certificate cost for bull calves that I steer. You only should register those cattle that will stay in the breeding realm of the world.

Also I would like to check out this "034" venture bull you reference to see how many progeny he has registered. I went on the shorthorn web site and searched under dunbeacon venture for an "034" bull but found nothing. By the way in the Spring 2007 EPD period Venture had 89 herds registering 442 progeny. Venture was born in 1992 while Kaboom was born in 2001. Looks like Kaboom progeny will outnumber Venture progeny pretty soon.

This brings up another topic. GENETICS!!!

Breeding purebred animals is an art and a science. You have to understand when you use "outcross" bulls all bets are off. Only by careful linebreeding can you actually have predictable results. We used HHFS Dream Weaver on some of our Trump Cows in the past and had a big variation in birthweights and mature frame score. We kept that animals that met our standards and culled the others. Since then we have come back into the linebreeding with this outcross and are finding that we have some really nice calves. This is evident throughout Shorthorn history especially in the early development of the breed. If you have time read the book "Short-Horn Cattle" by Alvin H. Sanders. Its an old book but it details the breeding programs of the early Shorthorn breeders and how they developed the cattle. Linebreeding with occasional outcrosses works wonders. If all you do is pick the outcross flavor of the week then you will be highly disappointed with your Mongolization of your herd. Know what you want and determine what will get you there and once you get there, Stay there.

 

[Doc]

NHR, You brought up some real good points. You are also correct on the  book.

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

WELL THAT WAS AN EXPERIANCE. MY DADDY CALLED IT HEIFER ENVY! FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO CONGRAGULATE NHR ON HIS HEIFER I BELIVE SHE IS A FINE ANIMAL AND A GOOD SPECIMIN OF HOW FAR THE BREED HAS COME SINCE MY YOUNGER YEARS. JILL I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGIZE FOR GARYBOB WHO WOULD RAG ON ANYONES CATTLE JUST TO PROVE HES TOP DOG, (NOT THE BEST WAY TO BUILD BUSINESS RELATIONSHIPS) YOU NEVER KNOW WHO WILL BE TURNING YOU DOWN, LATER ON THE ROAD. C-CROSS YOU SOUND LIKE A COMERCIAL CATTLE BREEDER, THEREFORE IT’S PROBLY NOT THE BEST IDEA TO BE BREEDING TO TOP SHOW BULLS. PASTURE COWS AND SHOW LINES= INCONSISTANY. AND COME ON GB SNEED & LAKESIDE - MAN THAT’S SO OLD SCHOOL THAT MAKES ME FEEL YOUNG AGAIN. FROM PERSONAL EXPERIANCE IF YOU DONT CHANGE WITH THE TIMES YOU’RE BOUND TO BE LEFT BEHIND. GARY BOB COME ON, YOU TELL ME YOU AND C-CROSS ARE SMART ENOUGH TO AVOID TRAIN WRECKS, (SEEMS LIKE YOUR THE BEST THING THATS EVER HAPPENED TO CATTLE) EVEN GOOD CONSISTANT ANIMALS HAVE TRAIN WRECKS, REMEMBER ITS ALL A GAME OF CHANGE. IT’S JUST HOW WELL YOU PLAY THE GAME. TO BAD IF $$influence$$ HAS HURT YOU OR THE BREEDS IN ANYWAY. MAYBE YOU SHOULD GET SOME $$influence$$ SO YOU CAN CALL ALL THE SHOTS.

 

[chambero]

 

The 3/4 and 7/8 Angus cows ( 3rd calf, now) We have to pay close attention to--they just don't have any "room" for a calf that is bigger than 6% of their mature weight. That's weighing BOTH the Live ones and the "Lost". We have at least two breach calves each year, but ONLY from the Blacks.

GB

You are stretching things a little on that one or you have had some sorry black cattle.  There are about "gillion" black cattle owners that would prove you wrong on that one. 

 

[C-CROSS]

We do raise show cattle and I have two horn cows were are flushing and have sold numerous steers out of them.  When I refer to cows running out in 1000 acres that is summer.  we check our cattle every 2-3 hours 24/7 when calving.  so don't tell me not to be in the purebred business.  Just because that is not our only outlet for our calves means nothing. the calves that don't make the sale go to a feed yard and are gone to kill in April.  We don't just breed for the ring.  We will be in Denver showing, 2 chars.

 

[garybob]

 

The 3/4 and 7/8 Angus cows ( 3rd calf, now) We have to pay close attention to--they just don't have any "room" for a calf that is bigger than 6% of their mature weight. That's weighing BOTH the Live ones and the "Lost". We have at least two breach calves each year, but ONLY from the Blacks.

GB

You are stretching things a little on that one or you have had some sorry black cattle.  There are about "gillion" black cattle owners that would prove you wrong on that one. 

No stretching, at all, Chambero. We bought these girls from My Dad's Brother-in-law. He has used nothing but Low BW, High Marbling Angus Bulls( He sells freezer beef), for about 12 of the 15 years He's been in the Cattle Business. These girls were the daughters of first-calf heifers,They were small, roly-poly, and never really grew. I wish they were like your good Black Cows, but, they're not. If it were me, I'd try to find someone that was looking for smaller-framed Angus cows to breed to a Lowline Bull. Daddy says, We'll use 'em till they're old.

All's going on here, is a Pelvic-area deficiency. These cows only weigh 1150 (tops), I promise.

Actually, I wish these cows were more like your "Smokey" heifer.
GB