Leasing programs for club calves - for kids

[RyanChandler]

The quality has always been a lot better than I can afford.

I feel like you are doing a disservice to both the kid and the other kids in the show who paid or raised a calf. 

I don't see it like that at all-  If the kids were the one's actually paying for the calves that would be one thing but, seeing as how adults are having difficulty affording calves, I have a hard time believing the kids are able to. 

 

[RankeCattleCo]

99% of those calves are bought by wealthy parents.. I don't know any kid who spends their own money on a calf. What is the difference if the calf is bought by your parents or by someone outside of your family? Just my thinking.

 

[RyanChandler]

99% of those calves are bought by wealthy parents.. I don't know any kid who spends their own money on a calf. What is the difference if the calf is bought by your parents or by someone outside of your family? Just my thinking.

exactly- but you can see why people with money would push to implement those type of 'ownership' rules though. 

 

[BlkAngus]

99% of those calves are bought by wealthy parents.. I don't know any kid who spends their own money on a calf. What is the difference if the calf is bought by your parents or by someone outside of your family? Just my thinking.

You must not get out much.  My child purchased a heifer with show winnings. It's not a national champ or anything but my kiddo owns it.

 

[RankeCattleCo]

99% of those calves are bought by wealthy parents.. I don't know any kid who spends their own money on a calf. What is the difference if the calf is bought by your parents or by someone outside of your family? Just my thinking.

You must not get out much.  My child purchased a heifer with show winnings. It's not a national champ or anything but my kiddo owns it.

Let me rephrase that- 99% of the class winners, show winners, high placers, etc. are bought by adults.

Across the board, it is still a high percent.

 

[RyanChandler]

99% of those calves are bought by wealthy parents.. I don't know any kid who spends their own money on a calf. What is the difference if the calf is bought by your parents or by someone outside of your family? Just my thinking.

You must not get out much.  My child purchased a heifer with show winnings. It's not a national champ or anything but my kiddo owns it.

hmmm

 

[rrblack78]

My kids also purchased their beef projects with show winnings. My kids did very well with broilers last year and were able to use the winnings to buy their own animal.
As to the original topic my son had his show calf given to him by a family friend last year. He had about 60 head of heifer calves penned to haul to the sale and he told my son to pick him out one to show. No contracts or return deals were made. We housed and paid for all feed and grooming supplies. She won second in her class and 8th in the sale. The man who gave her to us and the feed store owner we did business with went 60/40 and bought her. Technically she was donated back to my son but we didn't have room for her so she is in the pasture she came from with a new heifer calf at her side. It may sound hinky to some but was all on the up and up. My son is still her owner and her calf is going to be his for our replacement heifer show next year.

 

[BlkAngus]

99% of those calves are bought by wealthy parents.. I don't know any kid who spends their own money on a calf. What is the difference if the calf is bought by your parents or by someone outside of your family? Just my thinking.

You must not get out much.  My child purchased a heifer with show winnings. It's not a national champ or anything but my kiddo owns it.

hmmm

  My kids each get a heifer as a gift out of the herd for their 1st year in 4-H.  Nothing fancy.  The show winnings I was referring to was from showmanship as well as animal placing's.  They show a couple species at several fairs, so it didn't take more then 4 years to save enough for the heifer.  So no, they didn't buy the first but they are slowly building their own herds.  I was just shocked that the above poster didn't know ANY kids that bought their own animals.  Don't get me wrong, I fully suspect most don't.

 

[RankeCattleCo]

99% is less than all. And if you think that anymore than 1% of kids buy calves from year 1 of showing to senior year, you are misinformed and delusional.

Not knocking your kids. They are an exception.

 

[BlkAngus]

I think If you actually read what I wrote you would have noticed the last sentence where I said that I suspect most kids don't.  So I don't think I'm delusional, but thanks.  Now I remember why I rarely ever post on here.

 

[DLD]

One thing to spell out, discuss, and understand if the calf is housed at the kids place is what responsibility occurs in case of a death of the calf.  Can avoid an uncomfortable discussion later if not talked about ahead of time.

This resolution would be the basis for why I would be so liberal in the lease arrangement.  I would make them pay the premium for the insurance policy in exchange for using my calf-  and they would pay for feed.  I've seen some on here say, "well that's not helping the kid out much" but my thinking - is that purchase price is over half the cost of the total project.  To me, providing the calf and reducing the total cost of their project by 50%  would be a very appealing proposition.

Sure you reduced the cost of the project, you also removed any chance the project has of even paying for itself in most cases, at least in our part of the world.  Many counties don't have premium sales for heifers, and most of the ones that do only pay a few hundred dollars.  I don't know of any state level bonus sales for breeding females, do you?  I don't know of a jackpot where anything but the grand and reserve pay enough to cover entry fees and expenses.  Maybe winning supreme champion or reserve at a state fair or "major" will cover a years worth of feed... maybe.  A breed champion at those same shows might be worth even a $1000 scholarship - yeah, it's great, and it's worth $1000, but it's hard for a 14 year old to pay this years feed bill with college scholarship money.  And it's only gonna be a handful of pretty elite heifers that win those $ I just mentioned. 

While we're breaking this thing down and trying to be honest about it, let's be honest about this - very few kids (families) will even break even, much less make money on a loaner heifer under the terms you describe.  Most of them do it because they don't care about having something to sell or put in the pasture when it's over - they just figure showing cattle is losing money anyway.  They're happy to save the upfront cost and still get to go chase a banner. 

 

[DLD]

99% is less than all. And if you think that anymore than 1% of kids buy calves from year 1 of showing to senior year, you are misinformed and delusional.

Not knocking your kids. They are an exception.

There's a huge difference in a parent, grandparent, whoever helping a kid buy a calf or even buying it for them, and in a breeder or trader lending out a calf that they will get back.  Lot's of kids around here go to a bank and borrow money to buy show calves (it's amazing how much money a normally very conservative small town bank might loan for a show calf, especially if you've got a good co-signer).  Many Farm Credit Associations and even FSA have zero or low interest youth livestock project loans - and they make a lot of them, around here anyway.  Borrowing the money to buy a calf is still way different than just borrowing a calf, though. 

 

[RankeCattleCo]

99% is less than all. And if you think that anymore than 1% of kids buy calves from year 1 of showing to senior year, you are misinformed and delusional.

Not knocking your kids. They are an exception.

There's a huge difference in a parent, grandparent, whoever helping a kid buy a calf or even buying it for them, and in a breeder or trader lending out a calf that they will get back.  Lot's of kids around here go to a bank and borrow money to buy show calves (it's amazing how much money a normally very conservative small town bank might loan for a show calf, especially if you've got a good co-signer).  Many Farm Credit Associations and even FSA have zero or low interest youth livestock project loans - and they make a lot of them, around here anyway.  Borrowing the money to buy a calf is still way different than just borrowing a calf, though.

I wouldn't relate the man in my situation as a trader or breeder. He is more of a father figure to me than my own father is.

 

[RyanChandler]

One thing to spell out, discuss, and understand if the calf is housed at the kids place is what responsibility occurs in case of a death of the calf.  Can avoid an uncomfortable discussion later if not talked about ahead of time.

This resolution would be the basis for why I would be so liberal in the lease arrangement.  I would make them pay the premium for the insurance policy in exchange for using my calf-  and they would pay for feed.  I've seen some on here say, "well that's not helping the kid out much" but my thinking - is that purchase price is over half the cost of the total project.  To me, providing the calf and reducing the total cost of their project by 50%  would be a very appealing proposition.

Sure you reduced the cost of the project, you also removed any chance the project has of even paying for itself in most cases, at least in our part of the world.  Many counties don't have premium sales for heifers, and most of the ones that do only pay a few hundred dollars.  I don't know of any state level bonus sales for breeding females, do you?  I don't know of a jackpot where anything but the grand and reserve pay enough to cover entry fees and expenses.  Maybe winning supreme champion or reserve at a state fair or "major" will cover a years worth of feed... maybe.  A breed champion at those same shows might be worth even a $1000 scholarship - yeah, it's great, and it's worth $1000, but it's hard for a 14 year old to pay this years feed bill with college scholarship money.  And it's only gonna be a handful of pretty elite heifers that win those $ I just mentioned. 

While we're breaking this thing down and trying to be honest about it, let's be honest about this - very few kids (families) will even break even, much less make money on a loaner heifer under the terms you describe.  Most of them do it because they don't care about having something to sell or put in the pasture when it's over - they just figure showing cattle is losing money anyway.  They're happy to save the upfront cost and still get to go chase a banner.

What does breaking even have to do w/ it? I just see showing cattle as more of a hobby. Some kids travel across the state playing select ball, other kids travel across the state going to jackpots.  Kids need to learn early that hobbies are expensive- what better incentive is there to work hard?

 

[DLD]

I guess I just have a different philosophy about all this than you guys do.  I'm old school, I still feel like the point of the program is for the kids to learn about the business of producing livestock, not just having expensive hobbies.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[BlkAngus]

I guess I just have a different philosophy about all this than you guys do.  I'm old school, I still feel like the point of the program is for the kids to learn about the business of producing livestock, not just having expensive hobbies.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I'm right there with you!  While showing is fun, at the end of the day it's the bonus for working hard and learning about beef/beef production. 

 

[vc]

Our area is different (in more ways than one) For the whole county we probably have 3 or 4 families that go to more than one jackpot out of the 60 to 80 beef projects at our fair. Most jackpots are at least 300 plus miles away, so it is a bit costly. There are a few FFA teams that go to one show "Western Bonanza" and that is it. Most kids are in it for the county fair and trying to make some money, now our average price was $3.50 a pound last year so most made some money. I would guess that the range of $ spent for our area is $1000 to $4000 for an animal (the families that spent big $ are gone now) with the grand bringing over $10 a pound every year. The kids who jackpot also have better steers for the same $ as the kids who don't. The breeders they work with help them out since they know they will put in the work and represent they breeder in a positive way.

The kids that go to the jackpots are usually the ones near the top each year, they buy better calves, work with them more and tend to be better showmen (more practice). My boys paid for their calves, they started with commercial calves bought with money they made from their showpigs, I may have paid for their feed up front the first few years but after they sold their animal they reimbursed me. We did not count the cost of jackpots towards their project, like Xbar stated that was the hobby part, we spent time together, met a lot of nice people, and they learned a lot.

As far as a lease on an animal, If you have a kid you want to help, there are a few ways I see to do it, For steers: give them an animal out right and just right it off. Have them work off the cost off a animal (market price) or supply the animal, the feed and when their done take it back and either sell it or eat it. (I would give them a few hundred bucks at the end). The heifer deal has pretty much been discussed enough, I just have one question, if all they want to do is show, why not just let them show in the commercial division (non papered) they get to show an animal, you get to keep the papers on it?

 

[Tallcool1]

In my opinion, there are a few factors that determine what we are REALLY dealing with in the different situations.

First off, the exhibitor must be involved with the daily care of the animal.  That is a given.  To have a producer handle all of the preparation and hand over that halter is just not acceptable to me.  NOTHING pi55e5 me off more than getting beat by a steer that I KNOW is in the trader/producers cooler all summer long and the exhibitor lives 100 miles away!

I believe that a lot of it boils down to the caliber of the calf that we are talking about.  To allow a young exhibitor to "borrow" a heifer that is going to stand middle of the pack is one thing.  To "loan" out a heifer that wins every time out is a completely different situation.  The lessons are in the preparation, not in the winnings.  How many of us would honestly be upset by standing 6th in class KNOWING that the calf standing 5th is a "loaner"?  Now how many of us would be upset standing Reserve Champion KNOWING that the Grand Champion is a "loaner"?  Some may say that in principal it doesn't matter.  I believe it does matter.

To me, what makes those two scenarios different is the spirit of the transaction.  If the spirit of the transaction is for the trader/producer to live through an exhibitor and put a whipping on everyone each weekend, that is wrong.  If the spirit of the transaction is for the trader/producer to extend an act of kindness and give a helping hand to a deserving exhibitor or family with NO regard for the ultimate success in the show ring, then I am all for it.

The one thing that makes this harder is the quality of the cattle today.  I had a very prominent producer tell me something last week that I had never really thought about.  He told me that 20 years ago, it was about 80% the calf and 20% the care that the calf received.  Today, it is about 50/50 because there are so many good steers being produced.  He told me that 20 years ago, he would never have a "left over" that would even be able to win a moderately competitive county fair.  Today, he ends up with an unsold sleeper that can compete at a State Fair......if he receives the proper care. 

 

[RyanChandler]

To me, what makes those two scenarios different is the spirit of the transaction.  If the spirit of the transaction is for the trader/producer to live through an exhibitor and put a whipping on everyone each weekend, that is wrong.  If the spirit of the transaction is for the trader/producer to extend an act of kindness and give a helping hand to a deserving exhibitor or family with NO regard for the ultimate success in the show ring, then I am all for it.

I think you have to keep in mind that the success that calf has is a reflection on the breeder just as much as the kid showing it.  I wouldn't 'loan' out a calf that I didn't think was going to be competitive.  The promotion of 'my stock' would be one of the incentives for me to engage in that type of arrangement.  The first steer I ever showed was "sponsored" by one of our subs.  The only stipulation was that I had to put a sign advertising his ranch where my calf was stalled.  I don't see anything wrong w/ this. It's a win - win. 

 

[RankeCattleCo]

To me, what makes those two scenarios different is the spirit of the transaction.  If the spirit of the transaction is for the trader/producer to live through an exhibitor and put a whipping on everyone each weekend, that is wrong.  If the spirit of the transaction is for the trader/producer to extend an act of kindness and give a helping hand to a deserving exhibitor or family with NO regard for the ultimate success in the show ring, then I am all for it.

I think you have to keep in mind that the success that calf has is a reflection on the breeder just as much as the kid showing it.  I wouldn't 'loan' out a calf that I didn't think was going to be competitive.  The promotion of 'my stock' would be one of the incentives for me to engage in that type of arrangement.  The first steer I ever showed was "sponsored" by one of our subs.  The only stipulation was that I had to put a sign advertising his ranch where my calf was stalled.  I don't see anything wrong w/ this. It's a win - win.

Another thing to look at is who it is sponsored by... Pretty big difference in if a breeder who raised the calf is sponsoring or if it is a trader who bought the steer. Just my opinion.