afhm
Well-known member
Could have been to settle a score, or to recoup money owed. Also could have been to reap the benefits of a insurance policy. Its hard to believe that they didn't all know about it as tight as they all were with each other.
Legacy Plus
- Thread starter afhm
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Telos
Well-known member
Could these possibly be offspring of cows that were sold as breds by the legitimate LP partners?
DLD
Well-known member
afhm said:
Yep.
afhm
Well-known member
I don't remember for sure but it doesn't require a cert register a LP calf does it? I have some semen, and just haven't used it yet. I know in the past Hartman has given and sold semen on his "closed" bulls to people who bought alot of cattle from him.
Now in theory (this occurred to me while I was on the tractor in the rain - yes rain the first measurable rain we have had since the end of May - the rain gague is moving!! (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)) if an LP calf was a LP progeny and the "rules" of the LPJV were followed, then the breeder of the calf or the "breeder" of the embryos should be listed as one of the LPJV partners - which if memory serves me right would include Hartman, Lee, Hall, Weber (these are the guy who are the plaintifs) and Buck, Glover, Pannell and Nieman - so in theory if anyone else was listed as breeder there could be an issue - where is the lawdawg when we need him??? 
Jill
Well-known member
That was what we discussed last night, for embryo's you have to do a transfer and it has to be signed if I remember right by the breeder of the embryo. Doesn't matter who owns them the breeder doesn't change.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Anyone familiar with Marion Texas. If so, how about BovaGen in Seguin, TX. let me know.
Jill
Well-known member
http://www.bovagenet.com/staff.html
This is the web site, don't know anything about them
This is the web site, don't know anything about them
OH Breeder
Well-known member
dragon lady said:
Yes. What should I be looking for?
I could be wrong here - but if I interpreted the LPJV documents correctly the semen could/should only be used by the syndicate - therefore the cow should be owned by a member of the syndicate - I don't know if your paperwork lists "breeder" or owner of the cow - the ET paperwork may vary depending on the place where the work was done - sounds like a call to the AMAA is in order?
I believe that thissticky wicket trumps all previous sticky wickets!
I believe that thissticky wicket trumps all previous sticky wickets!
Jill
Well-known member
The only way in this situation that a non-owner could have embryos out of the bull would be if they agreed to flush a cow with one of the owners and they split the flush, this happens all the time and is not out of the ordinary. I guess I would call the owner of the cow and find out.
The AMAA doesn't have control over a syndicate, doesn't that I know of have an right to police the use of a bull, nor would they be able to tell you where the semen came from. I'm not sure why you would call the AMAA, although the outcome of the proceedings does affect board members and the association, I don't know how they could help you, unless the calf has been registered they will not have any information on the flush.
The AMAA doesn't have control over a syndicate, doesn't that I know of have an right to police the use of a bull, nor would they be able to tell you where the semen came from. I'm not sure why you would call the AMAA, although the outcome of the proceedings does affect board members and the association, I don't know how they could help you, unless the calf has been registered they will not have any information on the flush.
knabe
Well-known member
this is too funny. i have a hall's legacy plus cow with a freeze brand, purchased from a second party, along with a cow that had hall's legacy plus heifer twins, from the same party. that party bred the cow, i didn't. i also have 5 straws of legacy plus. Hall's legacy plus is listed as available for $100 at SEK. from a non-show perspective, halls legacy plus is not heavily saturated with tenderness genes or marbling genes which you can view when the results are posted at the bovigen site on my cattle. he is at least heterozygous for T1 and one of the marbling gene's. one of my heifers out of the freeze branded cow has 5 tenderness stars, her mother had one each of T1, T3 and one marbling gene, i forget which one, and her other stars, one each of T1,2,3, came from a paramount son and her PHA status is unknown at the moment. Her mother is clean. she is also kinda long, thick, yet pinchy in her heart girth. perhaps hall's legacy plus may have other carcass traits that show up with MMI's markers. by the way, those twins are very different, both in hair, bone, length of muzzle, hip shape. they have 4 distinct teats, my mature legacy plus cow has 3 undeveloped teats. they are not registered yet, so i'll call the office and let you know if i can. again, too funny. maybe i'll have to eat them. also, semen from legacy plus was available for sale when i purchased my cows. this could get ugly. man this is terrible and useless.
Several uninformed observations here:
1. If own part of an expensive bull and someone tells me he is dead or about to die, I'm showing up to either see a carcass or animal. Probably having a vet of my choice give a second opinion before anyone puts him down. Lots of very good businessmen get too busy to attend to details and something like this happens. Its never a good idea to trust your money or assets with someone else. Especially not good friends, etc. You've got to take care of business.
2. This probably much more common than you realize. A county extension agent recently lost his job and is in legal hot water because of similar deal with a billy goat. (I hate goats and don't pay much attention, but its the popular meat goat breed). He was partners on some six figure billy goat that "died". Called to tell his partner sorry. Somehow, months later partner found out said goat was still alive in south Texas. He went down anonymously to look a the goat. Tried to buy him, the "owner" got nervous, turned down six figure offers. Finally he broke down and came clean and now all hell is breaking loose. Again, a "money" partner didn't take care of business and took someone's word that his goat died.
3. Stories like these and lots of much smaller-scale examples of cattler partnerships gone bade make me quite content to not want to be partners with anyone on cattle. If I can't afford them outright I probably don't need them. I know way too many good friends who aren't friends any more. Learned the hard way personally. Plenty of gray areas for everyone to honestly think they are in the right.
4. The AMAA should take severe action on this if wrongdoing is proven by the courts. This can't be tolerated because it affects people who are spending hard-earned money on semen/animals that they are paying a premium for exclusive access to.
1. If own part of an expensive bull and someone tells me he is dead or about to die, I'm showing up to either see a carcass or animal. Probably having a vet of my choice give a second opinion before anyone puts him down. Lots of very good businessmen get too busy to attend to details and something like this happens. Its never a good idea to trust your money or assets with someone else. Especially not good friends, etc. You've got to take care of business.
2. This probably much more common than you realize. A county extension agent recently lost his job and is in legal hot water because of similar deal with a billy goat. (I hate goats and don't pay much attention, but its the popular meat goat breed). He was partners on some six figure billy goat that "died". Called to tell his partner sorry. Somehow, months later partner found out said goat was still alive in south Texas. He went down anonymously to look a the goat. Tried to buy him, the "owner" got nervous, turned down six figure offers. Finally he broke down and came clean and now all hell is breaking loose. Again, a "money" partner didn't take care of business and took someone's word that his goat died.
3. Stories like these and lots of much smaller-scale examples of cattler partnerships gone bade make me quite content to not want to be partners with anyone on cattle. If I can't afford them outright I probably don't need them. I know way too many good friends who aren't friends any more. Learned the hard way personally. Plenty of gray areas for everyone to honestly think they are in the right.
4. The AMAA should take severe action on this if wrongdoing is proven by the courts. This can't be tolerated because it affects people who are spending hard-earned money on semen/animals that they are paying a premium for exclusive access to.
justintime
Well-known member
This is a bit off topic... well, it is completely off topic, but I am still trying to get my head around a 6 figure goat! In my world, a billy goat is lucky to have a 2 figure value, so a 6 figure goat is a little hard to grasp. Actually, I do know that there are some big dollars being spend in the goat business. An ET vet who lives near here, spends over 1/2 his time in Texas flushing goats and he says it is the best paying part of his business.
Speaking of high dollar animals,several years ago, we were flushing some cows here on the farm. The vet who was doing the work asked if he could use our phone as he was bidding on a bull elk that had a record set of antlers. He bid 1 million dollars for this animal and was only going on the report of the size of the antlers. One hour later, the phone rang and this vet was called to the phone to be told that this animal had sold to a US buyer at $1.325 Million. Right now, you can buy some pretty good elk around here for about $500. Sorry, this is way off topic!
In regards to Legacy Plus, I am reading all this with great interest, as I had not heard anything about this until this was posted here. He was bred by Barry Hall, and I saw him numerous times while he was still in Barry's possession.
Speaking of high dollar animals,several years ago, we were flushing some cows here on the farm. The vet who was doing the work asked if he could use our phone as he was bidding on a bull elk that had a record set of antlers. He bid 1 million dollars for this animal and was only going on the report of the size of the antlers. One hour later, the phone rang and this vet was called to the phone to be told that this animal had sold to a US buyer at $1.325 Million. Right now, you can buy some pretty good elk around here for about $500. Sorry, this is way off topic!
In regards to Legacy Plus, I am reading all this with great interest, as I had not heard anything about this until this was posted here. He was bred by Barry Hall, and I saw him numerous times while he was still in Barry's possession.
Here is an article on the goat incident I mentioned. Plenty of similarities to the bull mentioned.
http://www.makeabgabetter.com/yellowjacket.htm
I remembered reading this article in our hometown newspaper last year. It's now posted on this site - which is apparently dedicated to "issues" in show goats. Folks involved in showing cattle have always qualified as saints compared to their counterparts in sheep - and now I guess goats.
http://www.makeabgabetter.com/yellowjacket.htm
I remembered reading this article in our hometown newspaper last year. It's now posted on this site - which is apparently dedicated to "issues" in show goats. Folks involved in showing cattle have always qualified as saints compared to their counterparts in sheep - and now I guess goats.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
justintime said:
JIT
You saw LP in person. What did you think of him? Female maker or ....
chambero - I believe that there are saints and sinners (and probably scum) in any endeavour involving money - be it cattle or goats or horses or show ferrets (OK maybe not ) - the only industry immune is the Beefpaca - which is of course why they are so special.
I agree that the AMAA needs to take a hard line - it relates to the integrity of the herd book and the validity of the registration papers
seems there is a lot of Legacy Plus floating around - wonder what the original contract said? My read of the document says it shouldn't be available on the open market.....the court document does say "Legacy Plus semen could be inseminated by LPJV members in leased cows" having never leased a cow would that information be on the ET paperwork?
anybody have any idea when the court date is? telos this could be better than Law and Order - heck they may make a L&O out of it
what an absolute mess - I am pretty dismayed (actually appalled might be a better word) at some prominent Maine breeders - makes some of the guys who don't list all the test results on their bull look like saints (OK, well not really)
) - the only industry immune is the Beefpaca - which is of course why they are so special.I agree that the AMAA needs to take a hard line - it relates to the integrity of the herd book and the validity of the registration papers
seems there is a lot of Legacy Plus floating around - wonder what the original contract said? My read of the document says it shouldn't be available on the open market.....the court document does say "Legacy Plus semen could be inseminated by LPJV members in leased cows" having never leased a cow would that information be on the ET paperwork?
anybody have any idea when the court date is? telos this could be better than Law and Order - heck they may make a L&O out of it
what an absolute mess - I am pretty dismayed (actually appalled might be a better word) at some prominent Maine breeders - makes some of the guys who don't list all the test results on their bull look like saints (OK, well not really)
