Legacy Plus

[knabe]

here's a hall's legacy plus heifer out of a midas cow.  this one is the lighter boned, more angular one

 

[knabe]

i'll resize before i do that again, that was terrible, sorry.

HA! Beat ya to it! She was hard to view as a 45 inch picture  (lol) (lol)

 

[knabe]

i hang my head in shame.  thanks DL

 

[justintime]

This is a bit off topic... well, it is completely off topic, but I am still trying to get my head around a 6 figure goat! In my world, a billy goat is lucky to have  a 2 figure value, so a 6 figure goat is a little hard to grasp. Actually, I do know that there are some big dollars being spend in the goat business. An ET vet who lives near here, spends over 1/2 his time in Texas flushing goats and he says it is the best paying part of his business.
Speaking of high dollar animals,several years ago, we were flushing some cows here on the farm. The vet who was doing the work asked if he could use our phone as he was bidding on a bull elk that had a record set of antlers. He bid 1 million dollars for this animal and was only going on the report of the size of the antlers.  One hour later, the phone rang and this vet was called to the phone to be told that this animal had sold to a US buyer at $1.325 Million. Right now, you can buy some pretty good elk around here for about $500. Sorry, this is way off topic!
In regards to Legacy Plus, I am reading all this with great interest, as I had not heard anything about this until this was posted here. He was bred by Barry Hall, and I saw him numerous times while he was still in Barry's possession.

JIT
You saw LP in person. What did you think of him? Female maker or ....

Legacy Plus was a younger bull when I saw him as he was still at Hall's. At the time we thought of him as a moderate framed bull, but today he may be considered a little bigger framed. I also saw him when he won both the Canadian and US national Championships andhe certainly looked the part.  He had an excellent top and lots of muscle expression. He was very well balanced and structurally sound on his feet and legs. I thought he was a bull that would probably sire some good calves of both sexes. I am not exactly sure if he left better females than bulls, but if I was to guess, I would think he would lean more towards siring better females. His dam was a great cow, so I am sure there are some excellent females off him.

 

[knabe]

bear with me while i practice my resizing skills.  here's both heifers, the first one with a better stance, the second has a shorter muzzle, squarer hip, thicker, more bone, more hair (when it was there).  both walk in their tracks, decently forward with their feet.  for twins they are not very similar, well i guess they are separate eggs.

 

[knabe]

i realize this is only verbal, but i just got off the phone with John Boddicker and he informed me there should be no restriction on using legacy plus semen, registering calves be they regular AI in nature, or ET as there is no certificate requirement.  to me, the most annoying topic is the animals that are out there under a different name, and then you go and have them typed and they are wrong, and who the semen has been selling as.  more hiding and circling the wagons.  diagnostics is a great light.  turn on the floodlights.

 

[DL]

Excellent resizing! Nice heifers too.

So all LP progeny can be registered - the issue being between the syndicate members not the AMAA.

Do we know if when the bull was collected in Wisc was he collected as LP or Fred or Mystery Bull 47?

 

[knabe]

can the date collected info be determined from cane info?  i haven't looked closely at canes in a long time, and if it has the collector, there must be inventory, lot numbers etc.  any thoughts on other "fingerprints" garybob?

 

[DLD]

Collection date should be stamped on the straw, along with the registration number of any registered bull. I believe that the stud's id either plainly or in code is supposed to be there as well. So if the bull was collected as Legacy Plus it should include his registration number, and a collection date - I guess this is possible, since it's not the stud's job to police that this bull supposedly died some time ago. If he was collected under another name as a registered Maine bull, then he'd either have to have been issued another set of papers (in which case DNA might match the papers) or used a completely different set of papers from like another deceased bull (in which case DNA would not match), or more than likely he was just collected as an unregistered bull. There's really no way that anybody outside of the original LPJV could openly market the semen as being from Legacy Plus, so any semen that the people who had possession of the bull in the end had collected pretty much had to have been marketed as something other than Legacy Plus, if at all.

As with most things of this nature, it's just not all as it seems.

 

[DL]

DLD - you are of course correct, but any way you slice it - it still is pretty slimy  (although I really wasn't aware that slime could be sliced ;D)

 

[knabe]

a few more animals have popped up at bovigen's site on tenderness, including two of mine.  the three heifers don't show up because i'm too lazy to register them, but yes, they are current on their vaccinations DL, including brucellosis. ;D  on of the heifers is 7 stars, 5 for tenderness, two for marbling, alas, that one isn't one of the legacy heifers, who had a poor showing :'(, though not totally devoid.

 

[DLD]

DLD - you are of course correct, but any way you slice it - it still is pretty slimy  (although I really wasn't aware that slime could be sliced ;D)

Yes it is, DL. Like I said earlier, they're all big boys and made the decisions that led them to this point.

 

[OH Breeder]

Collection date should be stamped on the straw, along with the registration number of any registered bull. I believe that the stud's id either plainly or in code is supposed to be there as well. So if the bull was collected as Legacy Plus it should include his registration number, and a collection date - I guess this is possible, since it's not the stud's job to police that this bull supposedly died some time ago. If he was collected under another name as a registered Maine bull, then he'd either have to have been issued another set of papers (in which case DNA might match the papers) or used a completely different set of papers from like another deceased bull (in which case DNA would not match), or more than likely he was just collected as an unregistered bull. There's really no way that anybody outside of the original LPJV could openly market the semen as being from Legacy Plus, so any semen that the people who had possession of the bull in the end had collected pretty much had to have been marketed as something other than Legacy Plus, if at all.

As with most things of this nature, it's just not all as it seems.

Then how can SEK Genetic Horizons have LP in inventory and for sale for 125 straw?

 

[DLD]

It should have originated from one of the LPJV partners. It's my understanding that even though the original agreement was not to sell semen, at some point in time, the decision was made to go ahead and sell it. I don't know the details, whether the partners were each to sell semen out of the amount they were allowed annually or if it was sold out of a common bank and then split up. There's been LP semen on the market for years - there's no way that if it was in violation of the contract that it's just now being questioned.

 

[OH Breeder]

Okay,
thanks DLD. This all seems like it is getting more and more convoluted.

 

[afhm]

It'll be interesting to see how many LP daughters and how much semen is in the RAy/ Berwick dispersal later in the fall.

 

[DL]

Yes it certainly will be.

Since there is acollection date on the straw one could get an idea if the semen was collected prior to death or after the bull miraculously reappeared in the dairy state

 

[knabe]

i wonder if all the animals generated with the "dead" semen are kept track of and not mislabeled and if they can be registered by blood typing if there is an identity issue of the semen if it has the "wrong" name, and if anyone obtaining semen with the wrong name will be allowed to change names on registration papers now that the fertile cat is out of the bag.  i wonder if whoever collected him was in on it, got the straws labeled.  i will ask my vet to look at my straws over the weekend.  would be really interesting if there was both kinds of legacy semen, one set marked correctly, the other marked incorrectly. 

over on the angus side, they are pawning for quietly using a test for snorter dwarfism.  i understand the sympathy for breeders caught unaware's, but in the long run, i think it will be a marketing plus to get out front of the issue, rather than be someone who says "we never had that problem here, and we've heavily used that bull".  it could happen, but if it's a single gene, it's obviously highly unlikely.

 

[DL]

I don't know that much about the politics of the Angus breed (but there is a lot of info on the Advantage cattle board) but apparently the AAA paid some money for the development of the test and is (was?) controlling its use - maybe somebody can enlighten us...

 

[knabe]

here's a link to a previous attempt to isolate the source of the snorter dwarfism gene.

i'll try to attach a partial doc with a picture, but it's a converted pict, so it may not be viewable

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/56/5/243

if you don't have access, it may require login, say so and i'll post some excerpts or email you the pdf

as with any disease, this may just be one source and/or one allele.

anyone know anything about the front royal breeding program?

comments in the article were made that to maintain the inbred lines, carriers had to be maintained or the line would die.  they were selecting for growth rate and conformation.

in herefords, a carrier was identified in the "comprest" line, a bull line that was noted for lots of beef popular in the 50's.  all i could find on the angus side is a cow numbered 253

there does seem to be a response to hybrid vigor, particularly when hereford and angus are crossed, producing dwarves.  no info whether this was proportionately the same as for normal calves.

hmm, perhaps this would be a good gene to study for hybrid vigor in it's normal state or a modified state unassociated with dwarfism.