Malpractice? Advice- Calving loss. .....nightmare

[TPX]

You do'nt use club calf bulls period. I was told were a nice guy. BUT WOW if that ain't a lie.......  Do you know the breeders of HW? Do you use HW? Since you seem to be SUCH a club calf resource. Let me ask thanks in advance.
I do induce any cow that I suspect there are issues on or before due date. Any cow that is not bred ot calving ease bull is checked by my vet in the last trimester. I have used HW twice in my life. Like it matters AJ- You use carrier genetics and bash people for having carriers and then try to come on here with your hollier than thou attitude. What's the difference?
Maybe you should go to church more might make you a happier person. God Bless You!
[/quote]

This might be a little off topic and I dont know your program but if we are raising pure bred/registerd cattle and find that they are going over there due date so we induce them does this not affect the b/w which in the end affects all the epds for the cattle.  I wonder how much of this goes on out there and thus gives us false epd's.

 

[aj]

I didn't start this thread. I don't care if you use cow killing stuff. I just don't understand messing with this stuff then whining if you get a big one. Use a recepient cow. Then shoot the rip when she can't get up after partuition. I just don't get the suprise of having a big calf? How in the world could this happen?

 

[Bulldaddy]

I have been reading OH Breeders posts on this board since I joined and have found them to thoughtful and courteous.  Wish others responding to this post could do the same instead of being so rude.   He was asking for some feedback not a whipping.

 

[aj]

Malpractice requires a lawsuit. The subject line says malpractice. Words mean things.jmo

 

[DL]

OB - sounds like a nightmare any way you look at it - cow 2 weeks over due - calf 150 lbs  - no vets around - finally get a vet and he doesn't have suture because he has done several surgeries and the supply wasn't replenished - sounds like everything that could go wrong did go wrong

I remember the Glitter cow fondly - she was my pick at Hardings that year - unfortunately there were others with more $ Wink

these are some of the things I see
- you said you kept the calf alive but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have died had there not been a delay - was there a necropsy?
- you say you called several vets and finally this one came - you say he is a good vet - if you sue him he will likely never work for you again - I wouldn't - who will you call next time? who will come?
- the vet forgot to check to make sure he had everything - the system at his clinic failed - it was a mistake - I do not think that is rises to the level of "failing to meet the general standard of care" - had he done the c-section and used bailing twine or dental floss or wire that would be evidence of failure to meet the usual standard of care
- somewhere I believe you said that you were then thinking only about saving the cow - he did save the cow didn't he?
- just like human med - there is no guarantee of results - he put in his time in the middle of the night when no one else would come and help you, while I feel bad for your loss I think you should take a deep breath, be glad the death was a calf in your barn and not a loved on in your house and pay him

FWIW -

in regards to other comments on this thread
- only a fool would start a c-section while sending someone a hour away to get suture
-if you want your vet to come in the middle of the night you need to remember the "gravy work" - if you have no veterinary client relationship with the vet (he/she is NOT your vet) and they are under NO obligation to come out in the middle of the night to deal with your mess just because you called them
- and I agree with KLLR - AMEN to that When I get called out on an emergency it is essentially "on demand overtime", and trust me most clinics including ours don't charge near enough for it!  It is exceptionally consuming to be on call 24/7, and I guess it ticks me off to hear people like yourself complain about your vet charging extra for "after hours calls".  I'm guessing you would share my view on things if you actually were doing the work. 

 

[LN]

About all you can do in a situation like that is chalk it up to sh*t happens. Otherwise you'll eat yourself up stressing about it.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. At least the cow is ok.

 

[chambero]

Thanks for your response DL - a lot of good points for us all.

My only addition to this is that Murphys Law rears its ugly head most often when people get in a hurry.  I interpreted this as the vet probably tried to get to you as fast as he could at the end of a very long day. 

I consider it long odds to save a calf that big no matter the circumstances.  In the grand scheme of things, that would rule my decision on how mad to be.

My vet wouldnt charge me, but we use him all the time for little stuff- even boarding the dog when we go on vacation.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Lots of good points and lessons to be learned here. i guess after i have thought about it awhile, I agree with the theory sh.. happens. You have to believe the vet did not knowingly come out there without sutures. I would bet he was cussing all the way back to the office. If it was me, i would feel horrible about you loosing the calf and try to help you on the bill. Sometimes our first thoughts are not the right thoughts and emotion overules coomon sense. That was my mistake initially. My vet is wonderful. I have his cell and when he comes out, he teaches me what to do so he doesnt have to come back next time. i lost a calf and a heifer oncewhen the vet who lives 5 minutes from me wouldnt come out because it was a saturday evening.

 

[kattleluver]

I'm from OH too and thank God my vet doesn't charge $600 for a c-section! I've never had one done but inquired on one last year just in case!  OH-breeder I'm very sorry this happened I think I'd found some fishing line or something for a temp fix! (I know not proper but it probably would've worked for a few hours in a pinch!!) I've had to call out on a few after hours emergencies thanks mainly to my horses! I'm very thankful that my clinic has always been awesome about getting someone out ASAP! Yes I have to pay more but I pay more if I go to the ER myself rather than a dr office so, of course they charge more! I would wait on the bill and call the vet and just explain yourself and try to reach an agreement. I don't think you should pay for the extra miles.... If  I were you vet I would feel horrible as is! I had to put down my 4 year old gelding last fall... It was terrible, and my vet worked with me bill wise cause he tried a few diagnostic things with no results cause he'd never done it before. I also had a vet do a surgery on a crypt orchid and didn't find the one so he charged me supplies only... Worth a shot! Just scream about it before you call so you can stay calm while on the phone I'm sure it won't be  easy!! Good luck, again I'm sorry it worked out badly in the end!

 

[TJ]

You have to remember we are all humans and we all make mistakes. In this case you both made mistakes and you should just put this to rest. The calf more than likely would not have lived for long anyways.

I know I do.  We all do.  The most important part to consider here is that it sounds like the Vet didn't make his mistake on purpose.  Sometimes stuff just happens & unfortunately this sounds like one of those times.  Hopefully he will not bill for the extra trip or maybe give a discount on the rest of the visit too.  With that said, it's natural to be upset.  We all would be, especially when somebody else makes a mistake that costs us.  It's human nature.  So, with that in mind, I'd give it at least a few days (maybe a couple of weeks) & consider the potential consequences before I said or did anything that I might later regret.  Just my 2 cents.        

Sorry for your loss, OH Breeder!  God bless!
     

 

[TJ]

Lots of good posts in this thread... KLLR, Frostback, DL & others.  Everybody needs to keep in mind that there are 2 sides to every coin & I can see both sides.  For a few years we were without a local Vet to work on large animals.  Now we have a former football teammate of mine from HS who does large animals here locally... I know him quite well & we talk to each other a lot at times, so I now have a better appreciation for Vets who are willing to work on large animals.  The guy also goes to his clinic at all hours of the night & checks on sick dogs & cats, etc.  Based on my observations of what he does, you couldn't pay me enough to do what he does!  And he's certainly not getting rich!  I now don't blame those who choose to only work on dogs & cats because they can make a bunch more $$ doing that, with a whole lot less hassle!!  But, I am extremely thankful for those who are willing to work on large animals.  On the flip side, losing calves, especially ones that possibly could have been saved, is extremely frustrating!!  Been there & done that a few too many times.  Again, I can see both sides of this.  But, the bottom line is that this sounds like an unintentional mistake & unfortunately, those things do happen.    

Best wishes & God bless!      

 

[sue]

Steerplanet has been an interesting place to meet new people in all aspects of the cattle business-
I think about the hours my club calf friends spend creating a calf for a young person to show . Im not a parent but I sure see the value in all aspects of the cattle business . I choice a different path for production - but I sure value all of the friendships in the entire business. I have learned just as much from a Club calf breeder as any of the rest.

If you are getting started in the club calf business - I would definately want to visit with OH Breeder.

 

[CAB]

Sorry to read about your loss Shawn. Any of us on this board regularly have a great love for cattle and this industry no matter what segment of it we come from. For those of us that join into the clubbie world know that we are sure to get those outlying calves that there is no reason for other than we have clubbie bred genetics and we are going to get surprised every once in awhile. I usually get a calf or two each spring that just really rip @ your heart and I wonder why I don't go play another game so to speak. I know that for myself it takes days to kind of get over the loss of a calf and truth be told quite a bit longer to totally move on. I think that we carry a good dose of guilt around for sometime, after all we are the ones that make the breeding decisions. This is why it just really upsets me anymore the number of promoters that will call a bull calving ease before they know whether or not he is just to make a few extra dollars, but then again I/we should be smart enough not to use their new "PROVEN CALVING EASE" bull.  I know that from reading Shawn's posts that he would never on purpose breed to a bull that he knew would harm his cattle. I know that if we all put ourselves in Shawn's shoes for a minute,  I think that we would all have to say that we may have went a little nuts when the vet didn't have the sutures with him. I don't actually know how hard that would have set with me. I do know that it would have gotten me terribly upset to say the least. Shawn again I am sorry for your loss and how it happened to you. Like I said earlier, I know that you breed cattle B/C you love it and there are emotions involved with your love for these cows and calves.
  I hear what the vets are saying about the 24/7 on call deal, but I have to ask this question, when you went to school to be a large animal vet, what were your thoughts as to what would all be involved when mother nature called? It's kind of like the farmer saying well I only work from 8 to 5, see you in the morning Bessy, it just doesn't happen that way and we all know that when we study and take the job. JMO.

 

[DL]

  I hear what the vets are saying about the 24/7 on call deal, but I have to ask this question, when you went to school to be a large animal vet, what were your thoughts as to what would all be involved when mother nature called? It's kind of like the farmer saying well I only work from 8 to 5, see you in the morning Bessy, it just doesn't happen that way and we all know that when we study and take the job. JMO.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but it is not like a farmer working 9 to 5 - a farmer makes his or her own decisions and deals with the consequences. The on call vet deal often is dealing with messes made worse by the people who think they know what they are doing - pulling a calf by one leg with a jack, not checking cows for a long time and suddenly in the middle of the night the dead stinking calf becomes an emergency, c-sections with no facilities for a PHA calf etc etc the owner of the livestock bear a great deal of responsibility in many of these situations by the decisions they made and the action they took. If you are a good client, you know when you are in trouble and call before making a huge mess of a simple situation, I do your routine work, you have facilities, your cows aren't idiots, you pay your bill - I will gladly get up in the middle of the night or middle of the family dinner or middle of the movie to help you. If not I can choose to not be your veterinarian - there is no legal, moral or ethical reason that says I must deal with your mess in the middle of the night

research shows if you feed at night cows calve during the day - a great way to save after hours calls and make your vet happy

 

[CAB]

  I agree to what you are saying Lana and I do claim that I/we do stupid things, but when you decided to become a large animal vet the things that you are describing come with your decision. We can't pick & choose which, where, and when we decide to perform our job sometimes.It just doesn't work that way for us in real life sometimes. I commend PPL who are diligent and make the extra effort to get up 60 nights in a row to make sure that their cows are OK and help them if need be. I guess I just don't get that if you are planning on being a large animal vet, that you  wouldn't forsee some night time OB calls. JMO.

 

[TJ]

... I know that if we all put ourselves in Shawn's shoes for a minute,  I think that we would all have to say that we may have went a little nuts when the vet didn't have the sutures with him. I don't actually know how hard that would have set with me. I do know that it would have gotten me terribly upset to say the least. ...

You are absolutely correct that it would have upset every one of us.  Some probably more than others, but we all would have been bothered by it to some extent.  The fact that it probably caused sleep loss, due to it happening during the night, would likely elevate the level of frustration for all of us too.  Upset is bad enough, but tired & upset is often worse.  Anyway, this is the side of the coin where I totally sympathize with OH Breeder.  But, on the other hand, it sounds like an unintentional, honest mistake & we all make those from time to time.  IMHO, this is one of those... "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you" Matthew 7:2 NASB type of situations & the honest truth is that we've all made mistakes that were unintentional.  With all of that said, if he went ahead & billed for the extra mileage, I wouldn't be a real happy camper & I would have to have a friendly talk with him.  JMO. 



 

 

[jaimiediamond]

I didn't start this thread. I don't care if you use cow killing stuff. I just don't understand messing with this stuff then whining if you get a big one. Use a recepient cow. Then shoot the rip when she can't get up after partuition. I just don't get the suprise of having a big calf? How in the world could this happen?

aj you have a talent in life you see a moment where someone is down or unhappy and you feed on it.  Make it fester, claim to be a better cattleman, actually you know what you are doing...  supposedly! A calf gains approximately 2 lbs a day in utero at the end of term so if the cow had calved when she was due it would have been big (114lb) but not as disastrous.  If you read the person your attacking (OH Breeder's) previous posts he is all about the welfare of animals!  He is consistent, in his values. Aj welcome to "steerplanet" where people breed club calves and talk about club calves and deal with club calf issues. 

As a person that isn't in the club calf world I don't always get it but I do recognize that some people are  insecure bullies, others are here to learn and there are a select few who are willing to help. ja you are a bully I am here to learn and OH Breeder actually helps people!

 

[DL]

  I agree to what you are saying Lana and I do claim that I/we do stupid things, but when you decided to become a large animal vet the things that you are describing come with your decision. We can't pick & choose which, where, and when we decide to perform our job sometimes.It just doesn't work that way for us in real life sometimes. I commend PPL who are diligent and make the extra effort to get up 60 nights in a row to make sure that their cows are OK and help them if need be. I guess I just don't get that if you are planning on being a large animal vet, that you  wouldn't forsee some night time OB calls. JMO.

If your point is that people who chose to do LA work should expect some after hours calls for OB - yes I agree

My point is that after hours calls rarely cover the bills - if you want a vet to be around in the middle of the night when you need a vet it would be a really good idea to have them do your routine work

 

[Earthmover]

Let me start by saying I live about 20 miles from Shawn and have known him and his nephew quite awhile and you sir have my sympathy. But lets look at the big picture here, A major shortage of large animal vets. Lets all direct this anger to the vet schools. Although they claim to be focusing on providing more Drs. the money is not there for these people. They make tons more on pets and its alot easier on there bodies in the long run. My daughter is a prevet major and in one of here first classes they told the kids what they could expect to make, 30K for large and 70K for pets. Its a no brainer. In our area the nearest vet is 30 miles away and he does about 5 counties. Untill there is a focus on food animal medicine the problem will only get worse. So please everyone write your elected officials and let them know of this impending catastrophe, it will only get worse. The only way to get better service and better Drs. is through competition.  (Shawn please PM me and let me know who the vet was, I hope it wasnt mine.)

 

[CAB]

  I agree to what you are saying Lana and I do claim that I/we do stupid things, but when you decided to become a large animal vet the things that you are describing come with your decision. We can't pick & choose which, where, and when we decide to perform our job sometimes.It just doesn't work that way for us in real life sometimes. I commend PPL who are diligent and make the extra effort to get up 60 nights in a row to make sure that their cows are OK and help them if need be. I guess I just don't get that if you are planning on being a large animal vet, that you  wouldn't forsee some night time OB calls. JMO.

If your point is that people who chose to do LA work should expect some after hours calls for OB - yes I agree

My point is that after hours calls rarely cover the bills - if you want a vet to be around in the middle of the night when you need a vet it would be a really good idea to have them do your routine work