Malpractice? Advice- Calving loss. .....nightmare

[knabe]

Untill there is a focus on food animal medicine the problem will only get worse. So please everyone write your elected officials and let them know of this impending catastrophe, it will only get worse.

one way would be to distribute processing and allow non-usda inspection selling from smaller plants.

but that would require someone else besides the big processors to write the legislation and no one would allow that.

 

[showsteerdlux]

OH Breeder,

Makes me cringe reading this post....we've known each other for quite some time, and I consider you an intelligent cattleman, and I don't like seeing all these harsh comments in this thread.  To me it sounds like a situation of several worst case scenarios colliding together to make a flat out disaster.....My family raises club calves and I am a large animal veterinarian, so I guess it gives me a unique perspective on the situation.  I don't want to be critical of anyone involved, my only piece of advice to you would be the following:  If your vet is someone you find to be skilled, and someone whom you have had a good relationship with over the years.  Don't let one negative outcome allow you to burn bridges which you may regret down the road....I guess what I'm saying is think it over and talk with your vet before doing anything rash.

I do have to address one particular comment made by MCC in this thread:

Personally, I do have a problem with this. It's like wanting to be a fireman but only fighting fires 8am to 5 pm. This brings me to another pet peeve. "After hour" charges. I can't control when a heifer decides to have a calf and I would just as soon be in a nice warm bed myself. If you are smart enough to be a vet you should be smart enough to realize you might have to go to work "After hours".

MCC you are free to have your opinions my friend, however I'm sure you are not a veterinarian or you would not be so against "After Hours" charges.  Your comparison to a fire fighter is laughable, fireman work generally work 24 on then 48 off, and I guarantee you that they are not asked to fight fires during those 48 hours they have off.  I work regular hours from aprox. 7:30 to 5 every day (except sunday)....I put in my 50 hours a week, and our clinic does provide "after hours service"  (which is getting to be more the exception than the norm).  When I get called out on an emergency it is essentially "on demand overtime", and trust me most clinics including ours don't charge near enough for it!  It is exceptionally consuming to be on call 24/7, and I guess it ticks me off to hear people like yourself complain about your vet charging extra for "after hours calls".  I'm guessing you would share my view on things if you actually were doing the work.  


[/quote]
Not trying to stir the pot even more, but FWIW, career Firefighters are "on call" 24/7/365. If there are enough calls, we will get called back on shift no matter what. With taht said, I am in no way comparing the 2, just pointing something out. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[OKshorthorn]

OH Breeder...I feel for ya. Hopefully the rest of your calving goes well. I know it's difficult but don't let that waste of oxygen deter you from your opinions and observations. You, contrary to aj, actually do provide insight and knowledge to genuine questions that some of us have. Thank you for that. Personally, I look forward to the day he gets banned permanently.

 

[Show Dad]

So what have we learned from OHB's unfortunate experience (it would be just plain dumb of us and down right rude to OHB if we don't get something out of all this)?

What comes to mind is the old Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared." I already have an emergency kit that contains needles, syringes, colostrum, drencher, scalpels, bloat guard and well you get the picture. But now it will also include sutures. Might even talk to the vet to see what else I should include.

Second thing I was thinking (dangerous I know) is that it is easier to catch flies with honey. So I will find out what kind of pie my vet likes or a gift certificate to his favorite restaurant. But I will make sure to keep him rewarded beyond paying his bill.

JMHO

 

[Jenny]

Having lived with cattle all my life and knowing a number of cattle vets, most of them good, what happened to you just happens.

Have had the vet out to pull a calf and when he got here he discovered the endgate of his truck opened and he had lost his calf puller somewhere along the road; he had to go back to town and get another one....he was just a beginning vet and pulled the calf, the pull was so hard the calf was brain damaged and never stood up nor even held his head up; he shoulda been a section; could have saved him but the vet did the best he could, he felt bad was a bad deal.

Vets have come out for chute work and forgot at the clinic their saw for removing horns, or a number of times some vaccination or implants; we sit and wait if they go back and get it or better yet you get to haul those in that need dehorning for example at more expense to us...

probably one of the most upsetting times to me was when a cow had prolapsed her uterus after calving so got the vet out immediately; most times if this is treated quickly the cow will breed back with no problems, and that type of prolapse will never happen to her again; so did everything right, kept her quiet, got the vet out ASAP but he brought along one of his kids who spooked the cow then she tore her uterus that was hanging out and had to have essentially a hysterectomy to stop the bleeding and save her life.  She was a very good cow and this saved her life but rendered her a non breeder, good for nothing but the sale barn.  The vet didn't even apologize cause to him, I am sure, it was just another cow,we have lots of cows, she had salvage value, and he did not GET IT that her value to our program was much more than just a sale barn cow.

But shit does happen.  
We did not complain to the vet, what good would it do?  He is a good vet and has also saved animals that we didn't think had a chance either.  Life goes on.

Sadly in your case as happens sometimes, everything that could go wrong, goes wrong.
You made a huge error, the vet or most likely his hired help made a huge oversight (mistake) also.  
LOL, this reminds me of another story...our son is an attorney and he has a secretary....as he signs papers she has typed, he is putting his signature on those documents....he is essentially at her mercy; if she makes an error, it is his signature that goes on the document, essentially making her errors his responsibility; it drives him crazy.  He has caught her in error on occasion, as we are all human, and he is unsure yet how much do you trust another human  in affairs in which YOU are the one responsible for the end product???  This is what essentially happened with your situation; we don't know what the consequences were to the person who SHOULD  have restocked the suture thread.. Perhaps none, perhaps they had consequences.....I would sure think that it was not the vet that should stock his supplies, they don't around here, in fact during calving the vet sleeps in the truck as the hired help drives him from call to call....

 

[LN]

So what have we learned from OHB's unfortunate experience (it would be just plain dumb of us and down right rude to OHB if we don't get something out of all this)?

What comes to mind is the old Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared." I already have an emergency kit that contains needles, syringes, colostrum, drencher, scalpels, bloat guard and well you get the picture. But now it will also include sutures. Might even talk to the vet to see what else I should include.

Second thing I was thinking (dangerous I know) is that it is easier to catch flies with honey. So I will find out what kind of pie my vet likes or a gift certificate to his favorite restaurant. But I will make sure to keep him rewarded beyond paying his bill.

JMHO

Actually sending a Christmas gift to your vet works out quite well. We sent CAB steaks to our vet and he's more than happy and prompt to answer our questions.

 

[Shady Lane]

So what have we learned from OHB's unfortunate experience (it would be just plain dumb of us and down right rude to OHB if we don't get something out of all this)?

What comes to mind is the old Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared." I already have an emergency kit that contains needles, syringes, colostrum, drencher, scalpels, bloat guard and well you get the picture. But now it will also include sutures. Might even talk to the vet to see what else I should include.

Second thing I was thinking (dangerous I know) is that it is easier to catch flies with honey. So I will find out what kind of pie my vet likes or a gift certificate to his favorite restaurant. But I will make sure to keep him rewarded beyond paying his bill.

JMHO

Actually sending a Christmas gift to your vet works out quite well. We sent CAB steaks to our vet and he's more than happy and prompt to answer our questions.

If you had of sent him some Shorthorn Steaks, he might give you correct answers.


(lol)

 

[shakin not stirred]

I agree stuff happens, and this is an unfortunate scenario. However, when "stuff" happens in the real world there are financial consequences tied to those mistakes. In this case the vet really should, at minimum, lower the bill if he hopes to retain your business. I don't know too many businesses that would permit too many "mistakes" and not make adjustments whether it be a firing, or a monetary credit.  Maybe I'm being heartless but the last thing on my mind would be to send the SOB a cake...

I'm really sorry to hear what happened OHB, I've been in a similar situation but did not let it slide. For some of us who do have substantial amounts of money in these animals it's hard not to get upset when it hits us in the pocket book because of someone else's stupidity or lack of preparation.

AJ... You  need to write a book on your superior herd and management skills, sure it'd be a best seller. I'm sure your show barn is plum full of purple banners hanging...

 

[MCC]

MCC you are free to have your opinions my friend, however I'm sure you are not a veterinarian or you would not be so against "After Hours" charges.  Your comparison to a fire fighter is laughable, fireman work generally work 24 on then 48 off, and I guarantee you that they are not asked to fight fires during those 48 hours they have off.  I work regular hours from aprox. 7:30 to 5 every day (except sunday)....I put in my 50 hours a week, and our clinic does provide "after hours service"  (which is getting to be more the exception than the norm).  When I get called out on an emergency it is essentially "on demand overtime", and trust me most clinics including ours don't charge near enough for it!  It is exceptionally consuming to be on call 24/7, and I guess it ticks me off to hear people like yourself complain about your vet charging extra for "after hours calls".  I'm guessing you would share my view on things if you actually were doing the work.

I guess I'm just to old and stupid to know when to shut up. KLLR you are correct I am not a vet or have never played one on TV. However I owned and operated my own ag business for 30 years. There were times a customer called at 2 or 3 in the morning or we were there all night long servicing their needs and never once charged them more money. We got paid for doing the work just like it was 10 am. No one twisted my arm to get in that business. To make a living and build a successful business I tried to take care of my customers the way I wanted to be treated. Many times we ran 24/7. Many people I know including myself now are on salary and if we have to go in after hours or work late we don't make anymore money than we would have working our "50 hours". I guess it ticks me off to hear someone complain about having to work over 50 hours a week. OK I just dug my hole deeper go ahead and throw in the DIRT.

 

[KLLR]

I guess I'm just to old and stupid to know when to shut up. KLLR you are correct I am not a vet or have never played one on TV. However I owned and operated my own ag business for 30 years. There were times a customer called at 2 or 3 in the morning or we were there all night long servicing their needs and never once charged them more money. We got paid for doing the work just like it was 10 am. No one twisted my arm to get in that business. To make a living and build a successful business I tried to take care of my customers the way I wanted to be treated. Many times we ran 24/7. Many people I know including myself now are on salary and if we have to go in after hours or work late we don't make anymore money than we would have working our "50 hours". I guess it ticks me off to hear someone complain about having to work over 50 hours a week. OK I just dug my hole deeper go ahead and throw in the DIRT.


Well since you asked me to throw the dirt i guess I should respond. 

I understand that veterinarians are not the only people in the world who at times perform there trade outside of normal business hours, as you clearly illustrate in your post (i guess you've got me curious as to what your agribusiness was?  Machine shop?).  However I would say that you are certianly in the minority for not charging your customers for your time.....which tells me that this was not a common occurance for you.  I know I'm wasting my breath hear trying to convince you of this fact, and it's not something you can appreciate  untill you've experienced it.  However for those of us who CHOOSE to offer on call services it is a lot more common occurance....For instance, in the past three monthes I've had 34 emergency calls.....that means 1 out of every 3 nights I've spent my evening doing something other than trying to keep my own 75 cows healthy or sleeeping.  Now this is something that I don't mind doing, but trust me when I say that I don't mind charging extra to drive out to your farm at 4 am on a cold snowy night!  Clinics who offer round the clock emergency service are becoming more and more of a rarity, especially for large animals.  You should feel fortunate if you have a vet who comes to ur place at the dorp of a hat, and you should smile and pay the "after hours" charge each and everytime.  Because as DL stated emergency service is not something which we are bound to do, and I know there was nothing in the veterinarian's oathe that says anything regarding what we charge for these "emergency" services.....I guess the one anaolgy i would give is this...you are sick and you go see your docotor by apointment at 2:30 thursday afternoon vs. you are sick and you go to the emergency room at 2:30 Thursday morning....please tell me which bill is goin to be higher?  (compartively we are much more conservitive with our emergency feees than those who are in human medicine)


I'll close by saying this....I hope you don't share your distaste for "after hours" charges with your vet, because the only thing  worse than an ungrateful client who feels as though they are entitled to your time 24/7, is an ungrateful client who feels they are entitled to your time 24/7 at a discount!!!!

PS if you ever would like to come out and do ride alongs with me for a monnth or two, I'd be glad to take you on all the emergencies you'd like...I bet by the end of the month you might have a little different take on things

 

[OH Breeder]

Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to send me an email or pm. Seriously. Still working through the confusion. Of course its always the best one's you have ever raised that die on you.  

Few things as this thread has grown.
I am not here to throw vets under the bus. I have allot of respect for what they do. I just had such a level of frustration I wanted to gain some insight as to HOW to handle it and had anyone else had this experience. BELIEVE me when I say, I have learned a valuable lesson. My calving kit will now carry 3 Cat Gut Suture that I have already found for $122 on line. That is a positive thing and has forced me to reevaluate MY readiness.

NO ONE....hint hint ....AJ ....ask how she was BRED. Well, she was bred to a long time marketed calving ease bull. Bull has been out there since 1999 and was used in LOTS of sales on heifers and every AI book sells him as CALVING EASE deluxe end quote. I will not post name of the bull on here because people like AJ will say....." I heard a guy had a 150# calf out of that bull".... and forget the 18 days over due part. Its not the bulls fault. If someone wants to know who the bull was personal message me. I don't believe in running bulls down on internet forum. ALSO- the Heat Wave calves out of this cow WERE carried by a recip that the prior year delivered on her own, nursed and raised TRIPLETS that weighed 65#'s a piece. She calved the HW calves at 85#'s spit them out like peanuts. I do care about MY RECIP cows too. When you find one like that they are worth their weight in gold.  In fact 4 calves nursed her that year and she stayed in condition. Never quiet have ever found one like her. If I ever had a doubt I would have induced her as well. So there were my two Heat Wave calves.

Now- thank you for the advice and the words of wisdom. I  keep coming back to this forum because of the high level of intelligence demonstrated by the MAJORITY of people on here. There is a ton of wisdom that is shared on a daily basis that has helped me in my operation and in LIFE in general.

 

[OH Breeder]

PS

Dr Keller et all VETS... I am not bitching about the after hours service call charge in ANY WAY. I understand that. I am sorry I opened that can of worms.

 

[MCC]

Well, KLLR, I want to congratulate you on becoming a vet. I'm serious. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I could go on but I don't see any constructive reason to. My uncle was a vet so I really don't think you could teach me much on your ride alongs. I thankyou for your time.

 

[knabe]

If you had of sent him some Shorthorn Steaks, he might give you correct answers.

if they are shorthorn steaks, you might get the wrong answers, just like the epds.

sorry, just a joke.

 

[aj]

As I understand calving ease bulls tend to have shorter gestation calves. The cow killers calves have cavles that usually go past a text book number of days. I don't understand your excuse of a cow going long in gestation cause alot of this is determined by the bull. The sire is a major contributor to a calfs gestation length last I knew. There had to be some junk in the pedigree somewhere back when to produce a 150# calf. A fire and ice mating. Its always the diet or gestaion length or lack of exercise or elevation or something else that is used as rationalization. There have been discussions on here since steerplanet started about how using big birth weight cattle is no big deal. I think it is. OH breeder is the hero. he stayed up late the one night and tried to save the next great ai sire alive. He was a hero to his cows. A vet who is the only one in hias practice never gets a break from being on call. A vet service with 3 or 4 vets rotate out the late night shifts. During calving season in our vets area they nomally have 2 emergency cow calls a night. This is every night for 60 days or so. Its not just the one night a year like OH breeder has stay up. In cow country this deal can wear out a single practice vet. I've seen them just walk away form the trade and not come back.

 

[aj]

And Jamie thanks for welcoming me to steer planet......I guess. But as I understand it I am the senior poster on this deal. No one has been here longer cept jason maybe DL.

 

[OH Breeder]

As I understand calving ease bulls tend to have shorter gestation calves. The cow killers calves have cavles that usually go past a text book number of days. I don't understand your excuse of a cow going long in gestation cause alot of this is determined by the bull. The sire is a major contributor to a calfs gestation length last I knew. There had to be some junk in the pedigree somewhere back when to produce a 150# calf. A fire and ice mating. Its always the diet or gestaion length or lack of exercise or elevation or something else that is used as rationalization. There have been discussions on here since steerplanet started about how using big birth weight cattle is no big deal. I think it is. OH breeder is the hero. he stayed up late the one night and tried to save the next great ai sire alive. He was a hero to his cows. A vet who is the only one in hias practice never gets a break from being on call. A vet service with 3 or 4 vets rotate out the late night shifts. During calving season in our vets area they nomally have 2 emergency cow calls a night. This is every night for 60 days or so. Its not just the one night a year like OH breeder has stay up. In cow country this deal can wear out a single practice vet. I've seen them just walk away form the trade and not come back.

You have an excuse for everyting don't you. You are the savior. You do it right. ALL HAIL AJ the one and only. WHere is your research on the gestation periods? Is this something you have been doing in your big moon town? SO- for over 12 years the bull I used has been marketed and successfully used as calving ease BUT its still my fault for using THAT bull. WOW. You just want to find ME at fault in someway. I admit falut in my service dates. Never was an issue. Thought was bull covered stuck to AI my mistake. Believe me I have and will never forget that mistake. I know its been a painful way to learn.

BTW- I did my 16 years Straight NIGHTS 645pm to 730am  (got off at 730am if I was lucky and there was no trauma, gun shot or amputation) in Open Heart Surgery and inner city ER. So don't lay that excuse on me AJ. I never said I didn't have sympathy for the vets on call blah blah blah.

 

[Okotoks]

As I understand calving ease bulls tend to have shorter gestation calves. The cow killers calves have cavles that usually go past a text book number of days. I don't understand your excuse of a cow going long in gestation cause alot of this is determined by the bull. The sire is a major contributor to a calfs gestation length last I knew. There had to be some junk in the pedigree somewhere back when to produce a 150# calf. A fire and ice mating. Its always the diet or gestaion length or lack of exercise or elevation or something else that is used as rationalization. There have been discussions on here since steerplanet started about how using big birth weight cattle is no big deal. I think it is. OH breeder is the hero. he stayed up late the one night and tried to save the next great ai sire alive. He was a hero to his cows. A vet who is the only one in hias practice never gets a break from being on call. A vet service with 3 or 4 vets rotate out the late night shifts. During calving season in our vets area they nomally have 2 emergency cow calls a night. This is every night for 60 days or so. Its not just the one night a year like OH breeder has stay up. In cow country this deal can wear out a single practice vet. I've seen them just walk away form the trade and not come back.

Ok, now I am totally confused. In the midst of cattle country where the commercial cattleman demands low birth weights the vets are run off their feet in calving season! ??? I think I need a  <beer>
I had no idea JA was making it all up. I didn't think this happened when everyone used only black bulls.

 

[OH Breeder]

And Jamie thanks for welcoming me to steer planet......I guess. But as I understand it I am the senior poster on this deal. No one has been here longer cept jason maybe DL.

Share with everyone why you came over here AJ. You were BANNED from the other popular internet forum too.....Amazing I was on there the same time and never was banned or put in a time out.

 

[aj]

There is no doubt in my mind that you are a hero. A very special man.