aj... you seem to be missing my point. I agree that we need to lower the top end of our BWs. Nobody wants them. Absolutely nobody. What my main concern is that if we all go chasing the lowest BWs we can get, what other economical traits are we giving up? If low BW is your main concern, use a Longhorn bull. There is lots of research out there now, and lots of work done especially in Australia on selection for low BW and using low BWs sires for generations. It has been proven that pelvic measurements decrease in size after selection for low BWs for too long a period. Should we not be talking more about calving ease rather than just low BWs. I band every bull calf with a BW of 110 or more. None above that are spared, no matter how good they are or if they have pure golden genetics. That may be 100 lb in some southern herds, or in other environments. I started this 8 years ago now, and I have not had a single complaint about calving issues from my bull buyers. I have one commercial buyer who buys one or two bulls every year, and this spring he purchased his 14th bull.He hardly never sees a cow calve as they calve in the hills and he keeps coming back. I think that tells me he is not having too many calving issues. The majority of my bulls sell to repeat buyers each year.
I think you have probably insulted the breeders and owners of some pretty good cattle, in most every breed, with your statements about all cattle that walk in a show ring are no earthly good. I would suggest that you take a look at some of the biggest and most successful commercial Angus bull sales in Montana, and see how many of the bulls selling in these sales are grandsons of some great show bull. Why is it, that when you go to Denver, many of the best producers of commercial bulls in the land are standing at ringside. I am sure they don't like all the show winners, but that is no different than anyone else. We all have to pick and choose. A number of years ago, we took a herd bull and 13 of his calves and displayed them in front of the Exchange building at Denver. We sold 11 of the 13 head with only two selling to purebred breeders. The ones we sold to commercial breeders averaged almost $500 more than the two heifers sold to breeders. I was overwhelmed by the commercial interest we had, and we sold groups of bulls to two of these ranches for several years following this. The $1500 we spent on the stall space and the cost of the trip was probably the best investment we ever made.
I am only saying that we all need to be careful in this breeding game, and single trait selection ( such as selection for low BWs) is often not good in the long run. You seem to think that I am saying that the way you run your cattle is wrong. I am certainly not saying that at all. I have never seen your place and I would have no right to tell you what kind of cattle you should raise. I am thinking that you and I both run our cattle similarly in that, we try to run our cow herds as commercially as possible. My cows seldom see a barn or shed. Most calve on grass, or in open sheds. Most of our calves come from March - May so most of them do not need to be inside, and they are only inside until a baby calf is dry and nursed. We run way too many cattle to keep them inside very long. I have never used a video camera, and I have no intention of ever getting one. I check the cows at 11 pm and only stay up if something is starting to calve, otherwise, they are in God's hands until 6 am.Most years, over 98% of our calves are completely born unassisted, including our heifers. Basically, the only ones I assist are malpresentations. I try to manage my cows and heifers to calve on their own, whenever possible. Sometimes our weather conditions do not allow us to do this all the time. I do not think that I raise show ring cattle. There is a big difference between breeding show stock and showing breeding stock. We show at 1 show every year, with an additional show every few years. I do not go to shows to win ribbons, but I go to shows to meet people, and to compare what I am producing with other breeders. It is hard to pay bills with ribbons and banners. I have sold many head over the years to commercial producers who have come to the show to see the cattle. Believe me, I would gladly stop showing in a heart beat if it wasn't so important to me making a decent living. In 2008 I banded two bull calves that had BWs over 110 lbs. Every other bull calf born in this year was sold in the spring of 2009 as a breeding bull. Over 80% went to commercial cattlemen. Are you suggesting that I am doing something wrong in my breeding program? I raise cattle to make a living and because I cannot think of anything I would rather do. I dread the day, that I can no longer go out every day and work with my cattle, but I also realize that this day will come. I hope I am smart enough to realize when I should quit. I probably will always own cattle, and I probably will always have a few to look after for as long as my body will allow me to do so. I cull my cows on how functional they are, and on their ability to pay their own way. I will keep a big cow if she proves she can pay her way. I have a ton plus cow that generated my top selling bull this spring and also generated over $25,000 in embryo sales in the last 6 months.She averaged 27 grade 1 embryos in 6 flushes and settled to an AI service 12 days after her last flush. Are you suggesting she should be shipped? Since I have owned this cow, she has never had a calf over 105 lbs at birth. I find it interesting that the majority of her embryos have sold to Australia into some herds that are experiencing a severe drought for the last 5 years. Do I want to have all my cows like her? Probably not. She is unique and she is also one of the easiest fleshing cows I have ever owned. She never sees grain, and always raises a good calf. I am not for 1 minute suggesting big cows are the answer. I am just pointing out that you cannot make blanket statements that all big cows are bad cows.
I have no issues with the way you raise your cattle, or the type of cattle you think work best in your environment and with the management systems you want to provide. You are surviving so you are obviously are doing something right. My issue is with your blanket statements such as "the trumps, rodeo drives and all of the popular showring cattle have big bwts. " I just responded that I did not agree with this blanket statement, as I know from my experience it is not correct. There are good and bad cattle in every bloodline, and there are some good cattle that get shown, and some that don't. There is a very popular bull that is promoted on this site from time to time as being one of the best calving ease sires in the business right now. I am not going to even mention this bulls name as I do not feel it is my place to bash a bull on the two calves I have had from him. I have only had two calves from this sire, and both were bulls. The first weighed 122 lbs at birth, the second was 115 lbs. Both were born unassisted and both were excellent calves. They were both banded before they were dry, even though they would have made excellent herd bulls for someone. I am not going to dispute this bull as being a calving ease sire, simply because he sired some big BW calves in my herd. Both calves were born very easily in minutes, and the only issue was their BWs. I would not even if they were hard pulls as I would be basing my judgment on two calves, and this is not right. Obviously some other factors were at play in this case. Sometimes, combinations of genetics seem to work to generate these types of surprises.
I am not sure if you are accusing me of lieing on birth dates and birth weights, but if you are, I take great exception to this. You can accuse me of a lot of things but I really have to take exception where my integrity is concerned. If you weren't, I apologize for even stating this, but I thought I had to set the record straight if you were. As for being richer than god, you made me laugh out loud at that one. I make my living from cows... that should be all you need to know. I also have to say that I have spent my entire lifetime chasing cows, and that is about all I have ever done. This business is not for the weak hearted, and I have seen more than my share of drought, financial disasters and pure wrecks. If I were to dwell on the bad stuff that has happened I am sure I would be dead by now.Believe me, this has not been an easy road I have chosen as my life's work. I have made many mistakes, but I hope I have learned a little from each of them.
You say it is not your responsibility to make the feedlot guy money. I would suggest that you had better hope the feedlot guy makes some money as he is your market. I was in that game for several years and I know that most of these guys know who's cattle worked for them, and who's did not. When I was buying cattle, I oftentimes would have a feedlot manager tell me that he did not want to buy cattle from certain cattlemen, unless they were at discount prices, because the cattle they purchased before did not work. You see this in every auction market in N America. When a reputation ranch sells their calves, the buyers are all paying attention, and they are trying to own some of them. I would hope,that no matter what conditions any of us raise our cattle in, that we are try to produce cattle that work for the end user, no matter if that is you, or the feedlot owner.
This thread has got way off the original subject. I personally liked the bull that Select Sires purchased, the best of all the bulls in that pen of bulls in Denver. He is the most correct and the soundest structured. I like the fact that he has a good lower quarter, and I think he is a sire who will work well on many bigger framed cattle. I am not convinced yet, that he will be the ultimate calving ease sire to use on heifers because of his low BW. That was my original post, in which I only mentioned that we all need to consider more than BW when selecting calving ease sires. From that comment, you seem to have taken it that I am suggesting we need our cattle all to be big and have huge BWs. Not so. I am only saying that if you had a bull that you have used for 3 years and have not touched a calf at birth, yet his calves BWs are 100 or more lbs, why is this totally wrong? I am NOT suggesting that this is totally right either, but if it is working for you, is it still wrong? You seem to suggest that this would never be right. If this is what you are saying, I think it is again another blanket statement, which I do not agree totally with. It may indeed not be perfection, but it still works for you.
If you have understood what I have written in previous posts, I am a great believer in optimum genetics. Too much or too little of any trait is not where we should be, in my opinion. This reasoning also stands the test for everything in our lives as well. I cannot think of anything that is not best in optimum amounts.Whether it be BWs, cow size, rib eye area, money in your bank account, food you eat, hours you work, etc etc etc.... everything is the best in your life in optimum amounts. That is all I am trying to say.
