showsteerdlux
Well-known member
What was the lawsuit about?
New Lautner Bulls
- Thread starter Turkey Creek Ranch
- Start date
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Jill
Well-known member
In an insane kind of way O0
CAB
Well-known member
Dusty, sorry to say, now this is JMO, somethings, yes Knabe is smarter than most, other things, I'm sure that you can hold your own somehow!!!!
red
Well-known member
Knabe is one of those people that would do well on Jeopardy. I think he has forgotten more things up in those little gray cells of his than I have ever remembered!
Dusty- I see you as someone that has streetsmarts or real world experience.
Red
Dusty- I see you as someone that has streetsmarts or real world experience.
Red
knabe
Well-known member
4x4 square means 16 maximum combinations. not sure if i did this right, but here's the actual combo's. a combo shows up twice except for the ones on the diagonal which show up once and the other diagonal where the heterohetero show up 4 times if i typed them in correctly.
PT Pt pT pt
PT PPTT PPTt PpTT PpTt
Pt PPTt PPtt PptT Pptt
pT pPTT pPTt ppTT ppTt
pt pPtT pPtt pptT pptt
PPTT 0.0625 (1) free
PpTT 12.5 (2) p carrier
PpTt 25 (4) p carrier t carrier
PPTt 12.5 (2) t carrier
PPtt 0.0625 (1) dead
Pptt 12.5 (2) dead
ppTT 0.625 (1) dead 42.275 % dead 56.26% alive. 6.25% clean calf. 25% of the time you could get an awesome calf to pay for all the death.
ppTt 12.5 (2) dead
pptt 0.0625 (1) dead
if it was cheap enough, seems to me, they would just do massive cloning of the steer and sell those rather than semen. you would get a "100%" chance of getting an awesome steer, rather than 25%. keeping track of all the genotypes would be arduous. if you had to add monkey mouth to have the perfect steer, the square would be 64 cells and the chance of the ultimate steer would be 1.56%. perhaps cloning that would be beneficial. add a fourth gene, spastic paresis......, it would be 0.04% chance of getting a good steer. perhaps that one would be worth cloning and just having a cloned steer show at that point since getting that many by breeding would cost more than cloning. if someone paid 50,000 for a steer, why not just clone more steers? at this point, the variation between envivonment would be maximized as opposed to the variation between clones and we could all see who are the real masters. it's pretty clear from these numbers alone, that without line breeding, it's pretty next to impossible to increase the ods in one's favor for specific combinations. pity that more people don't try it. imagine your kid crying because his steer was a carrier for 3 out of the 4 defects and you had to go find one with all 4. pretty sad.
i've known a couple of people on jeopardy, and the button thing is what gets them. you have to wait till alex is done with the question and buzz in. it's kinda like drag racing. anticipating on average will probably kill you. i've played the online jeopardy's at work and do ok against others. i'm not a big poetry fan or shakespeare or some of the other sifter categories. i wouldn't say i'm creepy smart, perhaps a creep though. perhaps insane is more appropriate.
PT Pt pT pt
PT PPTT PPTt PpTT PpTt
Pt PPTt PPtt PptT Pptt
pT pPTT pPTt ppTT ppTt
pt pPtT pPtt pptT pptt
PPTT 0.0625 (1) free
PpTT 12.5 (2) p carrier
PpTt 25 (4) p carrier t carrier
PPTt 12.5 (2) t carrier
PPtt 0.0625 (1) dead
Pptt 12.5 (2) dead
ppTT 0.625 (1) dead 42.275 % dead 56.26% alive. 6.25% clean calf. 25% of the time you could get an awesome calf to pay for all the death.
ppTt 12.5 (2) dead
pptt 0.0625 (1) dead
if it was cheap enough, seems to me, they would just do massive cloning of the steer and sell those rather than semen. you would get a "100%" chance of getting an awesome steer, rather than 25%. keeping track of all the genotypes would be arduous. if you had to add monkey mouth to have the perfect steer, the square would be 64 cells and the chance of the ultimate steer would be 1.56%. perhaps cloning that would be beneficial. add a fourth gene, spastic paresis......, it would be 0.04% chance of getting a good steer. perhaps that one would be worth cloning and just having a cloned steer show at that point since getting that many by breeding would cost more than cloning. if someone paid 50,000 for a steer, why not just clone more steers? at this point, the variation between envivonment would be maximized as opposed to the variation between clones and we could all see who are the real masters. it's pretty clear from these numbers alone, that without line breeding, it's pretty next to impossible to increase the ods in one's favor for specific combinations. pity that more people don't try it. imagine your kid crying because his steer was a carrier for 3 out of the 4 defects and you had to go find one with all 4. pretty sad.
i've known a couple of people on jeopardy, and the button thing is what gets them. you have to wait till alex is done with the question and buzz in. it's kinda like drag racing. anticipating on average will probably kill you. i've played the online jeopardy's at work and do ok against others. i'm not a big poetry fan or shakespeare or some of the other sifter categories. i wouldn't say i'm creepy smart, perhaps a creep though. perhaps insane is more appropriate.
knabe said:
We could just genetically engineer a calf and put in whatver traits we want. Insert the gene for TH, PHA, Moneky, Mouth, spastic paresis. I think that would be possible right now. We've been inserting traits in corn and soybean genes for years.
Frankly I'm just glad I came up with same result as you when I did my figuring.
And, I think you can get a calf cloned for 10-20K the more you do the cheaper per clone I think.
I would also pay for a pic, video would be better, of a calf born both TH and PHA positive.
knabe
Well-known member
the difference between plants and animals with inserting genes, is the number of individuals necessary to get the insertion in the location necessary to have minimal, or unnoticed affects on subject. in plants, one uses a selectable marker, ie antibiotic resistance, and only the ones that grow under a medium containing that antibiotic, grow. i'm not sure how it's done in animals. i'll look this up. of course if one just harvested ovaries, got all the eggs, that would be about 35-40,000 eggs, we would have to learn how to mature them or something like that. the early tests with humans was infecting people with a virus that had a gene that made the protein of interest. it doesn't affect the germ line, ie sperm or eggs, so even though you live, your offspring, if you are segregating for this gene, i guess could still be normal if you screened the embryo's. it's interesting, that when you have insertions, it's sometimes accompanied by a duplication of something.
basically, i feel the entire human population has been accumulating a bunch of ladies in waiting for about the last 150 years and this is going to have serious social discussions at some point in the future and will bring up the topic of eugenics again as humans clamor for food and water at some point again. the most interesting speculation here is that the plague in europe selected for people that had a mutation, that also potentially gives them immunity to aids. i'm pretty sure this is being studied.
oops, hijack.
so, at a steer show, should a dna database be kept for all winners, and a separate show be set up for regular breeding and no previous winner be allowed to enter in subsequent years as a clone, as opposed to the open, which appears to be headed for clones only at some point in the not too distant future? i guess breeding animals will probalby be headed the same wasy as well?
basically, i feel the entire human population has been accumulating a bunch of ladies in waiting for about the last 150 years and this is going to have serious social discussions at some point in the future and will bring up the topic of eugenics again as humans clamor for food and water at some point again. the most interesting speculation here is that the plague in europe selected for people that had a mutation, that also potentially gives them immunity to aids. i'm pretty sure this is being studied.
oops, hijack.
so, at a steer show, should a dna database be kept for all winners, and a separate show be set up for regular breeding and no previous winner be allowed to enter in subsequent years as a clone, as opposed to the open, which appears to be headed for clones only at some point in the not too distant future? i guess breeding animals will probalby be headed the same wasy as well?
red
Well-known member
Dusty- did you check out the YouTube video of the PHA calf being delieverd. It is thought provoking to say the least. Both cow & calf died but what's wose is that this was the cow's second PHA calf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bsu7tvjMUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_CA2qr17n8
DL had posted this earlier so I need to give her credit.
Red
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bsu7tvjMUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_CA2qr17n8
DL had posted this earlier so I need to give her credit.
Red
CAB
Well-known member
Red, do you happen to know when, approx., that this video was taken, B/C if it was after the test were available, that seems a little insane to have it happen 2 times, but if it was B4 the test, I can see how that could easily happen twice. My thoughts about it were that it was a pretty dramatic video, Kinda of like some of the anti-abortion pics and what not. I'm pro-choice BTW, if you couldn't guess.
CAB said:
CAB - The C-section video was after the test was available (May 2007) and actually since the cow already had a PHA calf the year before it was unnecessary to test her to know her status. However, she was bred in the fall before the test was available and she was bred according to the owners to a "PHA free bull" (NOT!). The smart thing to do knowing she was a PHAC since she had a PHA calf would have been to breed her to a known clean bull - maybe even an Angus
However, some people learn the hard way. Some people just don't. Certainly this was not a financially rewarding endeavor - 2 dead calves, 1 dead cow and 2 C-sections....
knabe
Well-known member
one scenario - but it came from the bull, and his sire was clean, how could this happen. (my neighbor actually said this)
2nd scenario - i don't care, that calf will be awesome and worth more than we have in the cow if we can get it out alive.
just think, there should be a new epd, the recip epd.
2nd scenario - i don't care, that calf will be awesome and worth more than we have in the cow if we can get it out alive.
just think, there should be a new epd, the recip epd.
Dusty said:
sorry pal - maybe I forgot why you think that that is acceptable - but that attitude is just SICK and really bad for the industry, but why should you care about the industry as long as you get your money?
Disposable cows - I think the idea that you toss them like a McDonalds wrapper, as long as you get your cash, is downright disgusting
CAB
Well-known member
I was curious about the time frame B/C the people are going to breed the cow back to a bull, so if B4 the test, I could understand it happening 2 times, but don't understand it happening 2 times after the test was available. The other thing is that we don't know all of the details that preceeded the C-section, as to the cows pre-op conditions, whether or not the calf was dead ahead of time or what all occurred. As far as I'm concerned, they were doing what needed to be done. I have had some C-sections over the years & never had one go or look that bad. We can't honestly compare the 2, but there are c-sections done every day delivering babies, it's what has to be done @ that moment. pretty much that simple. A decision has to be made with all of the information available @ the time.
DL,DL said:
OK first thing....show cattle and real cattle are two different industries. They both just happen to be cattle, after that is where they split. When we started to keeping cattle in refrigerators we pretty much crossed that line I think... And, most show cattle genetics have no business in commercial herds whether they are clean or not. They have too many other undesirable traits that come with the clubby business. There are way better purebred/commercial genetics out there for raising practical real world cattle. And I admire the people who raise those kind of cattle too. When we have pens of cattle that can go 60% prime, no 4's and be 14 months old. That's quite an accomplishment.
As a matter a fact I think most of the people who work with "real world" cattle probably think that the clubby people are pretty much nuts.... And I can see how they would think that by some the things that are practiced in the clubby business that are really impractical with commercial cattle.
I'd say raising that next great calf is the biggest motivator for using "dangerous genetics" along with the money that the good cattle generate. The show cattle industry will always be pushing the envelope on what is deemed acceptable whether that is with genetics, management, fitting, registration papers, etc...
I'm not SICK...I'm just not naive. Do you really think the ones getting slapped at the big ones are the products of 100% pure clean genetics that had unadulterated feed, care and management? Get real....
I'm not saying everything that happens is right, but you know what, not too much in life is really. If nothing else showing cattle will teach kids that nothing in life is really right and fair and they just as well get used to it.
What's the weather like on your planet??? It's actually pretty nice on mine today for a change...
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