Oh and another thing on the video. Yeah it was pretty gruesome, but there are a lot of gory things that happen anytime you have a biological process such as preganancy and birth when something goes wrong. Genetic defect or not. Like CAB said it kinda reminded me of anti-abortion propaganda. Oh and BTW if it's not mine child, I'm Pro-whatever...
New Lautner Bulls
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knabe
Well-known member
this brother (not really a brother) from another planet has had sunny weather going on almost two weeks. grass going crazy. i'd plant sweet corn if i didn't think it would rot.
along the lines of not really a defect, using an early 80's fullblood maine bull with an unknown BW, let alone an epd, what management guidelines are recommended to minimize birthweight from a 1500 pound pb maine? choice of cow either a known higher birth weight cow, or a lower one, at least determined in my hands. keep her in a pen and just control feed her the last 3 months after she attains sufficient BCS of 5-6?
what has been best experience with heavier birth weight bulls to retain his good qualities and walk his birthweight down through the generations.? half sib matings, daughter matings, or to a cow with low bw in several generations or something else including feed management?
along the lines of not really a defect, using an early 80's fullblood maine bull with an unknown BW, let alone an epd, what management guidelines are recommended to minimize birthweight from a 1500 pound pb maine? choice of cow either a known higher birth weight cow, or a lower one, at least determined in my hands. keep her in a pen and just control feed her the last 3 months after she attains sufficient BCS of 5-6?
what has been best experience with heavier birth weight bulls to retain his good qualities and walk his birthweight down through the generations.? half sib matings, daughter matings, or to a cow with low bw in several generations or something else including feed management?
When i said we I mean the beef industry in general. I am not a cattle feeder. I have seen kill sheets where the cattle went 60 or 61% Prime.
I specifically said that most of what happens is not right. I never specifically mention lying or cheating in my post. I just said people will continue to play on the edge.
And there are some good clean cattle out there, but i think the carriers are winning that battle right now.
Can you honestly tell me Sunseeker would be siring the calves he is if he were clean?
I specifically said that most of what happens is not right. I never specifically mention lying or cheating in my post. I just said people will continue to play on the edge.
And there are some good clean cattle out there, but i think the carriers are winning that battle right now.
Can you honestly tell me Sunseeker would be siring the calves he is if he were clean?
Show Heifer
Well-known member
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- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,221
First off, the two industries (show and "real") ARE tied together very closely, because when the show industry screws up, it is the real commercial sector that pays dearly. So lets not be cutting ties for the sake of cheating or using dirty bloodlines.
Second, "I never specifically mentioned lying or cheating in my post." What about your signature line "if your not cheating your not tryin"???? Isn't that condoning, in fact ENCOURAGING, cheating???
Would you support DNA testing of all chamption and res champion cattle for TH/PHA for information only? And then checking parentage, just for the sake of arguement? I'm willing to bet some of those "so and so super AI calves" are actually out of the ol' herd bull #56, but for the sake of making "big money" and the fact that certain show people can't see past a name, they called it "super AI bull" sired.
Then for the sake of breeding heifer shows, I think EVERY HEIFER should be DNA'd and the results be put on the show card. Only with complete information can a judge select the correct "future" of the industry.
I think both test would reveal some very interesting answers....
Second, "I never specifically mentioned lying or cheating in my post." What about your signature line "if your not cheating your not tryin"???? Isn't that condoning, in fact ENCOURAGING, cheating???
Would you support DNA testing of all chamption and res champion cattle for TH/PHA for information only? And then checking parentage, just for the sake of arguement? I'm willing to bet some of those "so and so super AI calves" are actually out of the ol' herd bull #56, but for the sake of making "big money" and the fact that certain show people can't see past a name, they called it "super AI bull" sired.
Then for the sake of breeding heifer shows, I think EVERY HEIFER should be DNA'd and the results be put on the show card. Only with complete information can a judge select the correct "future" of the industry.
I think both test would reveal some very interesting answers....
knabe
Well-known member
heifer dna'd. do you mean blood typed, like they do in canada for fullbloods? hm, i'm thinking that would be good for any breed. the test won't reveal any answers to suspicions, as probably very few would try and beat that. what would probably happen is that currently registered animals, after being typed, would probably not agree with their papers, especially on suspect parentage bulls. sorting that would be more annoying than a simple steer show.
if people want a PHAF/THF show, they should make one.
there will never be complete information, and the future is not knowable. the future is guaranteed by differing opinions and directions. these are the protections against an excess of democracy. it's why consensus to gain compliance never works. some people with a vision must sustain extended periods of mockery before reward. some must wait till they are dead. consensus never enters their mind to change their beliefs. the only belief worth extinguishing is the belief that extinguishes this. jim jones had consensus, his son is doing well playing basketball without consensus. consensus is ruining our economy because it seeks to fuel itself into a reverberating echo chamber whose chant is hard to resist.
if people want a PHAF/THF show, they should make one.
there will never be complete information, and the future is not knowable. the future is guaranteed by differing opinions and directions. these are the protections against an excess of democracy. it's why consensus to gain compliance never works. some people with a vision must sustain extended periods of mockery before reward. some must wait till they are dead. consensus never enters their mind to change their beliefs. the only belief worth extinguishing is the belief that extinguishes this. jim jones had consensus, his son is doing well playing basketball without consensus. consensus is ruining our economy because it seeks to fuel itself into a reverberating echo chamber whose chant is hard to resist.
shortyisqueen
Well-known member
Dusty said:
I haven't actually heard of anyone breeding a carrier to a carrier on purpose. I'm not sure who is willing to take this risk, but it is no one I know. I know people who are breeding carrier's to non-carriers from carrier lines, but if someone can get it done with carrier genetics and still avoid the disasters, it seems silly even for 'purely show' breeders to decrease their profit right from the get-go.
Most of the time, the mathematical probability doesn't line up with how things turn out (refer to the thread about 80% heifer calves). If you put in eight eggs and get seven dead cows and seven dead calves and a live one, the live one is going to have to be worth 30K to break even. Even cheaters and liars aren't that stupid.
Dusty - some of us realize what you meant in your post.
But...
You probably meant 60% choice. I don't even know if a feedlot would consider 60% prime to be vey good because your Yield Grades would be probably be too high. That being said, probably 99% of cattlemen couldn't tell you how their cows grade out and don't care. Unfortunately, it doesn't make that much of a difference in price yet to really get peoples attention. We do get kill data on our calves that wind up in the feedlot and our "show calf" bloodlines actually do very good in the feedlot.
I don't think there is any evidence the show calf industry has ever hurt the commercial industry. That would be a very tiny tail wagging the dog. It has probably helped in some ways by getting a lot of exotic influence into british-based cow herds. The commercial industry does drag the show calf industry in certain directions.
You can't regulate stupidity. Despite the information, a few idiots will breed carriers to carriers. The vast majority of show calf producers aren't doing that. I don't even know of any good calves that are coming out of Heat Seeker bloodlines mated to themselves. If TH didn't get you plenty of other issues (structural) would.
Show Heifer - you are exactly right in regards to parentage. A lot of these cattle aren't bred as advertised. And I really don't care, but it would be fun to see the data.
They might as well start requring DNA typing on all show heifers. Wouldn't bother me a bit.
But...
You probably meant 60% choice. I don't even know if a feedlot would consider 60% prime to be vey good because your Yield Grades would be probably be too high. That being said, probably 99% of cattlemen couldn't tell you how their cows grade out and don't care. Unfortunately, it doesn't make that much of a difference in price yet to really get peoples attention. We do get kill data on our calves that wind up in the feedlot and our "show calf" bloodlines actually do very good in the feedlot.
I don't think there is any evidence the show calf industry has ever hurt the commercial industry. That would be a very tiny tail wagging the dog. It has probably helped in some ways by getting a lot of exotic influence into british-based cow herds. The commercial industry does drag the show calf industry in certain directions.
You can't regulate stupidity. Despite the information, a few idiots will breed carriers to carriers. The vast majority of show calf producers aren't doing that. I don't even know of any good calves that are coming out of Heat Seeker bloodlines mated to themselves. If TH didn't get you plenty of other issues (structural) would.
Show Heifer - you are exactly right in regards to parentage. A lot of these cattle aren't bred as advertised. And I really don't care, but it would be fun to see the data.
They might as well start requring DNA typing on all show heifers. Wouldn't bother me a bit.
Dusty said:
Gross and horrible things happen, often time people have no control over them and get sucked into a terrible vortex. TH and PHA are gross thing over which humans have control. You can choose not to breed carrier to carrier. Your attitude (over which, incidentally you have control) - disposable cows, cheating, winning at all costs, money is king is more gross (IMHO) that a necropsy on a 30 day dead cow. You just don't give a da** and that is what I find most appalling. There is a huge difference between playing devils advocate or discussing different points of view and your jaded approach to cattle and the industry. But don't worry red will give you more karma and everything will be right with the world.
knabe
Well-known member
just read a market research report and cattle are going to get less days on feed. with 50% of the market going to costcoo and walmart, and another 20-25% going to the hamburger market, ie fast food, there really isn't a large market for premium beef. i don't think the majority of people who are consuming 75% of the beef really care about marbling, they care about price. since i couldn't buy "premium" beef, i decided to try it for myself and break even with about a quarter of beef for every two steers. it seems to have worked faster than i thought as i don't have enough to sell, which, granted, mine is not remotely a business in my wildest dreams.
it seems like there should be a contest for the perfect walmart/costco steer, the perfect premium steer, the perfect grass fed steer, and have a walk of champions similar to the westminster dog show to see which product best suited a market rather than one animal to fit all of the market. it seems there's room to make a profit in each segment without trying to be all things to all people. course the grass fed steers would have to be tested for grain, the costco steers for hormones. it's just never gonna end. i just wish the shows would reflect a little more reality in the diversity of the market. perhaps i'm wrong on this and the 1's and 2's with low marbling is the something for everyone, with the oddball IM carcass sifted for premium. i wonder how many dairy carcasses end up at the french laundry and other high end restaurants.
it seems like there should be a contest for the perfect walmart/costco steer, the perfect premium steer, the perfect grass fed steer, and have a walk of champions similar to the westminster dog show to see which product best suited a market rather than one animal to fit all of the market. it seems there's room to make a profit in each segment without trying to be all things to all people. course the grass fed steers would have to be tested for grain, the costco steers for hormones. it's just never gonna end. i just wish the shows would reflect a little more reality in the diversity of the market. perhaps i'm wrong on this and the 1's and 2's with low marbling is the something for everyone, with the oddball IM carcass sifted for premium. i wonder how many dairy carcasses end up at the french laundry and other high end restaurants.
I agree that he is a good bull. From what I've seen he doesn't have throw aways, even his calves that don't make club calves are still good feeding, good doing cattle. That could be attributed to the cow family behind him. I applaude you for raising his mother, she must be quite a specime. It has been my experience thought, that the really good ones by him are carriers. TH is a "side effect" if you will of good calves.Sundy said:
3GCC
Well-known member
one socalled breeder that we USED TO deal with knows that a heifer that we got from him, is a th carrier .told me that if we didnt breed her to a carrier we would never get a good calf. i said at least it will be a live calf if i dont
OK here it goes,
In response to Show Heifer's post:
As to my signature. I thought it would be funny a one to have after DL and Show Heifer wanted to round up posse to get the kid in Ohio that had the calf that had traces of DEX in his post show test... There's cheating and then there's cheating.
I agree with show heifer in that I think a lot of calves sired by the clean up bull get sold as being sired by one of the name brand bulls. Say the clean-up bull is heatwave son and you sell the calf as a heatwave, it happens a lot in my opinion.
But noone is going to pay the high dollar for a calf out of the cleanup bull so I see why the breeders and/or traders do it.
In the breeding heifer shows in a perfect world they would all be clean, church going virgins, but this a not a perfect world. It's the judges job to try and pick the most PHENOTYPICALLY correct female on show day. Nothing else. No cattleman worth his salt would take the word of one judge as gospel as to what he needed to raise for the future of the industry anways.
In response to Knabe's post:
I agree that if they want to have a TH/PHA free show they should have it....Otherwise run 'em all together and pick the best one. If you're gonna test for TH/PHA you could just as well have the steer show at Tyson and then judge them on the rail to find the truly best market steer. That would be about as fair as it gets in my opinion. no hair, no neck, no head, just meat; you wouldn't even have to break them to lead..... But that's not the point of a steer show is it. They have to be pretty and have the intangibles that make a great steer look great.
In response to Shortyisquenn:
I have talked to people on this board who have mated carriers to carriers. The juice is worth the squeeze from what they've told me. And it's their choice too... And, how do you figure 7 dead recips are worth 30k. Even when u figure the feed they're not worth even half that much.
Resonse to Chambero:
No, I meant 60% prime. I will try and get a hold of the breeder to get a copy of the kill sheet. It was a couple years ago. They were majority Angus based steers. There were no YG4's in the bunch. The same guy that bred them fed them out. I think that the guys that buy the higher quality, higher priced commercial/purebred bulls for the most part are the ones that feed out their own calves because they know just how much genetics impact the bottom line.
DL where do i start???
In response to your earlier post about disposable cattle being compared to McDonalds wrappers. "Disposable Cow Herd" is actually kind of an industry term nowadays. It is meant to describe a herd which consists of a few good donors and the recips that calve out their calves. I wonder where they got the disposable part?
And talking about TH/PHA as things humans have control and should not be subjecting cows to that situation. I would be venturing to bet that Heat Wave himself as caused more bovine death(cow and/or calf) than TH/PHA has. Yet everyone still has no problem sticking that straw of HW in there...Why? because he sires the best, most marketable calves of any bull. Yet noone shouts from the rooftops that it is wrong and inhumane to use a bull known for high BW and calving difficulty...Hmmmm? That is something u can't agrue.
And your comment about cheating and winning at all costs. That's what happens all the time!!!!!!! That's my point.
Raising show cattle is a business. With any business the point is to make money. You make it sound like it is evil and wrong to make money. Lemme guess....Hillary supporter???
I don't need red to give me karma. It really doesn't matter that much too me. I'm not soliciting Karma. I do find it funny though that I have accumulated it rather quickly. Maybe there are a few people out there that agree with me on some things????
In response to Show Heifer's post:
As to my signature. I thought it would be funny a one to have after DL and Show Heifer wanted to round up posse to get the kid in Ohio that had the calf that had traces of DEX in his post show test... There's cheating and then there's cheating.
I agree with show heifer in that I think a lot of calves sired by the clean up bull get sold as being sired by one of the name brand bulls. Say the clean-up bull is heatwave son and you sell the calf as a heatwave, it happens a lot in my opinion.
But noone is going to pay the high dollar for a calf out of the cleanup bull so I see why the breeders and/or traders do it.
In the breeding heifer shows in a perfect world they would all be clean, church going virgins, but this a not a perfect world. It's the judges job to try and pick the most PHENOTYPICALLY correct female on show day. Nothing else. No cattleman worth his salt would take the word of one judge as gospel as to what he needed to raise for the future of the industry anways.
In response to Knabe's post:
I agree that if they want to have a TH/PHA free show they should have it....Otherwise run 'em all together and pick the best one. If you're gonna test for TH/PHA you could just as well have the steer show at Tyson and then judge them on the rail to find the truly best market steer. That would be about as fair as it gets in my opinion. no hair, no neck, no head, just meat; you wouldn't even have to break them to lead..... But that's not the point of a steer show is it. They have to be pretty and have the intangibles that make a great steer look great.
In response to Shortyisquenn:
I have talked to people on this board who have mated carriers to carriers. The juice is worth the squeeze from what they've told me. And it's their choice too... And, how do you figure 7 dead recips are worth 30k. Even when u figure the feed they're not worth even half that much.
Resonse to Chambero:
No, I meant 60% prime. I will try and get a hold of the breeder to get a copy of the kill sheet. It was a couple years ago. They were majority Angus based steers. There were no YG4's in the bunch. The same guy that bred them fed them out. I think that the guys that buy the higher quality, higher priced commercial/purebred bulls for the most part are the ones that feed out their own calves because they know just how much genetics impact the bottom line.
DL where do i start???
In response to your earlier post about disposable cattle being compared to McDonalds wrappers. "Disposable Cow Herd" is actually kind of an industry term nowadays. It is meant to describe a herd which consists of a few good donors and the recips that calve out their calves. I wonder where they got the disposable part?
And talking about TH/PHA as things humans have control and should not be subjecting cows to that situation. I would be venturing to bet that Heat Wave himself as caused more bovine death(cow and/or calf) than TH/PHA has. Yet everyone still has no problem sticking that straw of HW in there...Why? because he sires the best, most marketable calves of any bull. Yet noone shouts from the rooftops that it is wrong and inhumane to use a bull known for high BW and calving difficulty...Hmmmm? That is something u can't agrue.
And your comment about cheating and winning at all costs. That's what happens all the time!!!!!!! That's my point.
Raising show cattle is a business. With any business the point is to make money. You make it sound like it is evil and wrong to make money. Lemme guess....Hillary supporter???
I don't need red to give me karma. It really doesn't matter that much too me. I'm not soliciting Karma. I do find it funny though that I have accumulated it rather quickly. Maybe there are a few people out there that agree with me on some things????
shortyisqueen
Well-known member
Dusty said:
Dusty, Here are my calculations:
7 Dead Recips @ $1200/each = $8400
What 7 Dead Recips Ate For the Year $500/ea = $3500
Cost of flush $1000 (or if you bought the right to flush, substantially more)...
7 Dead Calves @ $2500/ea = $17,500 (no, maybe they weren't Louisville Champions, some would sell for more and some would sell for less than this price, but your recip could be raising a $4000 - $5000 non-carrier heifer calf - that adds up pretty quickly)
Grand Total: $30,400.00
I'm probably a 'bit high' according to some on my recip price, but I certainly wouldn't sell any of our recips for under $1200. We specifically breed and raise some of our females to be recip cows, so I don't understand the thought pattern that recips are throwaways. They still have to milk (ALOT), have good udders so you don't have to spend a week trying to get the calf to suck after its born, good feet and legs, soundness, mothering instinct, the ability to keep herself in good shape and longevity so that you don't have to spend $1200 on a new recip every year. We find the fertility of the female impacts the chances the egg is going to stick, so that's worth something too. Our recips must be good enough that if the egg doesn't stick, they can be bred AI and raise a show calf themselves. One of our recips has raised $24,000 in CLEAN calves in her first three years - Would I put a possible PHA calf in her to risk it? No, probably not. I'd rather have her raise eight more calves. JMHO.
It is their choice on whether people want to risk it (unless an animal rights group member read this post)... I'm probably just being a bad business-woman and committing economic suicide by not breeding carriers - but I would feel very very very guilty if one of my cows had to suffer because I decided to take a chance and implant a PHA egg. I just don't think it would feel right...I'll be okay standing in second to a PHA calf if I don't have to go through that, and I'll probably still get my calf sold...
Sonny, Trump, Solution, etc. aren't TH or PHA carriers and their calves seem to still make out alright in the ring...
justintime
Well-known member
Dusty, I know you are not alone in how you think about the show industry and the beef industry, but the shallow, no consequences attitude I read in your posts really bothers me. I really get concerned when you say what happens in the show industry has no real affect on the beef industry. YOU ARE TOTALLY DEAD WRONG!!
I think if you personally knew shortyisqueen, you would know that she is, along with her family, have a very competitive and excellent show oriented operation. When they come to town they are loaded for bear... and they usually have to bring a spare suitcase for the ribbons and trophies. They are living proof that you do NOT have to use carrier lines to win. I will agree that a lot of winners are carriers... but that does not make it right ... and it does affect our industry.
I love cattle shows as much as anyone, but if I thought that this nonsense about continuing to breed to carriers was going to continue to affect the industry as a whole, I for one would do everything in my power to make sure that carrier cattle were not allowed to show .... Period. Everyone says that these defects are manageable. Well, in theroy maybe. I know too many breeders who think it is not ever going to bother anyone if they sell their carrier bulls to commercial producers. I may not affect them this year or 10 years from now, but the fact remains that it may affect them down the road sometime.
I have heard of defective calves being born from carriers who have pedigrees in which these defects were introduced 9 or 10 generations before. Even the smartest pedigree guru is going to miss one of these and if you have a handful of cows in your herd, you can pull bloods and keep Dr Beever's office busy. If you have 250 cows... or like many commercial producers 500 to 1000 cows, you probably will not test.
I agree 100 % with what Shortyisqueen posted as to the cost analysis. I also find your attitude about having to shoot a few cows every year or so, to be ... well... nothing but quite sick. I make my living from my cows and occasionally I have to shoot an animal for humane reasons. I do not consider shooting a cow because the owner decided to breed her to a sire that could, at the least affect the life of her calf, and at most affect the life of her calf and her own life, to be anywhere's close to logical or understandable. In my mind, this is pure and simple abuse and it upsets me just as much as if you starved you cows and had to shoot the ones that could not get up. I hope you have a pretty good job to supplement you clubby habit, because I have a notion it may come in real handy.
I find your position about chasing the elusive $20,000 - $30,000 clubby furball to be unrealistic.Yes, there are several that sell for these prices every year, but there are probably tens of thousands that don't. So what are your plans for all your carrier females that don't quite cut it and are worth about 70 cents a pound? Are you just going to sell them at the local market and sit there and watch some unexpecting farmer buy them for replacement heifers for his herd? Or are you going to make sure that every one of them gets fed out and slaughtered? Yes, these females can be managed as carriers, but how to you guarantee that this management is provided once they leave your herd?
I could go on and on ... as I have on numerous occasions on this topic. I have a problem when people say that continuing to propogate harmful defects is OK in a business that a very small profit margin at the best of times.
I think if you personally knew shortyisqueen, you would know that she is, along with her family, have a very competitive and excellent show oriented operation. When they come to town they are loaded for bear... and they usually have to bring a spare suitcase for the ribbons and trophies. They are living proof that you do NOT have to use carrier lines to win. I will agree that a lot of winners are carriers... but that does not make it right ... and it does affect our industry.
I love cattle shows as much as anyone, but if I thought that this nonsense about continuing to breed to carriers was going to continue to affect the industry as a whole, I for one would do everything in my power to make sure that carrier cattle were not allowed to show .... Period. Everyone says that these defects are manageable. Well, in theroy maybe. I know too many breeders who think it is not ever going to bother anyone if they sell their carrier bulls to commercial producers. I may not affect them this year or 10 years from now, but the fact remains that it may affect them down the road sometime.
I have heard of defective calves being born from carriers who have pedigrees in which these defects were introduced 9 or 10 generations before. Even the smartest pedigree guru is going to miss one of these and if you have a handful of cows in your herd, you can pull bloods and keep Dr Beever's office busy. If you have 250 cows... or like many commercial producers 500 to 1000 cows, you probably will not test.
I agree 100 % with what Shortyisqueen posted as to the cost analysis. I also find your attitude about having to shoot a few cows every year or so, to be ... well... nothing but quite sick. I make my living from my cows and occasionally I have to shoot an animal for humane reasons. I do not consider shooting a cow because the owner decided to breed her to a sire that could, at the least affect the life of her calf, and at most affect the life of her calf and her own life, to be anywhere's close to logical or understandable. In my mind, this is pure and simple abuse and it upsets me just as much as if you starved you cows and had to shoot the ones that could not get up. I hope you have a pretty good job to supplement you clubby habit, because I have a notion it may come in real handy.
I find your position about chasing the elusive $20,000 - $30,000 clubby furball to be unrealistic.Yes, there are several that sell for these prices every year, but there are probably tens of thousands that don't. So what are your plans for all your carrier females that don't quite cut it and are worth about 70 cents a pound? Are you just going to sell them at the local market and sit there and watch some unexpecting farmer buy them for replacement heifers for his herd? Or are you going to make sure that every one of them gets fed out and slaughtered? Yes, these females can be managed as carriers, but how to you guarantee that this management is provided once they leave your herd?
I could go on and on ... as I have on numerous occasions on this topic. I have a problem when people say that continuing to propogate harmful defects is OK in a business that a very small profit margin at the best of times.
justintime said:
There are some good clean genetics out there. I never said there wasn't. In the shorthorns Sullivan Farms from Iowa has done great job IMO at propagating clean shorthorn genetics. They do win a few shows now and then too....
Personally it would bother me to sell a carrier bull to a commercial cattleman w/out tellling him. That is just bad business. I'm not a fan of screwing people on deals like that. That is why a lot of purebred breeders have built successful, long standing, reputable businesses. People buy from them and they stand behind their cattle, it's good business to sell good cattle.
You said that it was inhumane and sick to use a bull that could at the very least affect the life of the calf. You never answered my earlier post on why it is ok to use the high BW bulls that sire dead calves a lot. BW has probably killed more than TH ever has? Why is one side effect ok in the minds of most breeders and others are not? And is it just me or do the dead ones always look like they woulda been d*** good SOB. Maybe it's just me?
Yes there are tens of thousands every year that don't make it, thats what makes the goal of raising that great one such a big deal.
On the heifers that go to the sale barn. If someone buys them for replacements and doesn't do their homework as to what they are....I have hard time feeling sorry for them. Anytime you buy breeding cattle out the sale barn, it's kinda like going to the bar on Saturday night and finding a date, ya never what ur gonna get!!! If the farmer that bought them contacted me and asked me what they were I would tell him, I would also inform him that they could possibly be carriers and educate him the best I could on what those defects are. If he asked me before they sold I would still tell him what they were, not telling someone or flat out lying to them is bad business.
Jill
Well-known member
Ok, I am going to break this down a little different because I think I understand what Dusty is saying and you are coming from 2 different points of view.
View 1-The people on this board, myself included raise cattle from an emotional point of view, most of us are the day to day managers and operators of our business. For us (myself included) we can't imagine that someone would breed a carrier to a carrier, when I lose a calf it is a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and a wasted year, time and money wise. Most of my recips are x show heifers and all are registered cattle.
View 2-There is a segment of the industry that run this as a business with no emotional attachment. Most are not the daily managers, they have people that handle the day to day. Recips are purchase to put embryo's in or a cooperator herd is used with a buy back program. When you look at this from a stricty logic/money point of view I can see where you could justify carrier to carrier. Using the same formula shortyisqueen used:
7 Dead Recips @ $1200/each = $8400
What 7 Dead Recips Ate For the Year $500/ea = $3500
Cost of flush $1000 (or if you bought the right to flush, substantially more)...
7 Dead Calves @ $2500/ea = $17,500 (no, maybe they weren't Louisville Champions, some would sell for more and some would sell for less than this price, but your recip could be raising a $4000 - $5000 non-carrier heifer calf - that adds up pretty quickly)
Grand Total: $30,400.00
Breeding carrier to carrier you have a 25% chance of having a dead calf, so in this senario you have 28 recips, you have 7 deads that cost you 30,400 but you have 21 live calves and 14 of those are carriers and in theory would carry the "type". In this scenario you're selling those 14 from 3000-30000 (realistic pricing) I can see where from a strictly profit stand point it could be justified and like it or not that is what people in any business are in business for, to make a profit.
To address the winners answer-I do not think that your major show winners in the past couple of years are out of someones clean up bull. There hasn't been a bull come on the market yet that is able to duplicate the Heat Wave winners and there have been dozens of sons that come out each year, what makes you think someone's clean up bull at home was able to do it? Can't really say about any of the other sire lines, but I have to say I think the Heat Wave's (or clones) are legit.
View 1-The people on this board, myself included raise cattle from an emotional point of view, most of us are the day to day managers and operators of our business. For us (myself included) we can't imagine that someone would breed a carrier to a carrier, when I lose a calf it is a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and a wasted year, time and money wise. Most of my recips are x show heifers and all are registered cattle.
View 2-There is a segment of the industry that run this as a business with no emotional attachment. Most are not the daily managers, they have people that handle the day to day. Recips are purchase to put embryo's in or a cooperator herd is used with a buy back program. When you look at this from a stricty logic/money point of view I can see where you could justify carrier to carrier. Using the same formula shortyisqueen used:
7 Dead Recips @ $1200/each = $8400
What 7 Dead Recips Ate For the Year $500/ea = $3500
Cost of flush $1000 (or if you bought the right to flush, substantially more)...
7 Dead Calves @ $2500/ea = $17,500 (no, maybe they weren't Louisville Champions, some would sell for more and some would sell for less than this price, but your recip could be raising a $4000 - $5000 non-carrier heifer calf - that adds up pretty quickly)
Grand Total: $30,400.00
Breeding carrier to carrier you have a 25% chance of having a dead calf, so in this senario you have 28 recips, you have 7 deads that cost you 30,400 but you have 21 live calves and 14 of those are carriers and in theory would carry the "type". In this scenario you're selling those 14 from 3000-30000 (realistic pricing) I can see where from a strictly profit stand point it could be justified and like it or not that is what people in any business are in business for, to make a profit.
To address the winners answer-I do not think that your major show winners in the past couple of years are out of someones clean up bull. There hasn't been a bull come on the market yet that is able to duplicate the Heat Wave winners and there have been dozens of sons that come out each year, what makes you think someone's clean up bull at home was able to do it? Can't really say about any of the other sire lines, but I have to say I think the Heat Wave's (or clones) are legit.
knabe
Well-known member
i was thinking that when legacy plus was reborn, those offspring still aren't as good as the original (some people can't stand the first or the second one). if a clean up bull beat a heat wave, perhaps he would be a new bull in lautners line up and would make more money than siring a couple by accident every odd year or so.
I think that the "top end" calves are probably what they are supposed to be most of the time. I think the ones that get sold out of the clean up bulls are more the lower end middle of the road type county fair type calves.
Who know's maybe the next great sire is running around as a cleanup bull in someone's pasture. Crazier things have happened. Some bulls take a few years to be "found." The popularity and the quality of calves out of bull are kind of a snowball effect if you will. Once a bull starts to click on some cows, more cows are bred to him next year, better cows are bred to him the next year. As people get a better handle on what cows a bull works on there is going to better calves out the bull in proceeding years. Thats why if you want to sell semen in my mind you have to practically give it away at the beginning, to start the snowball rollling. Sell the semen cheaper than you should, give some away to the breeders that you know have good cows, etc.... Then once you have a popular bull there is going to be a lot more good ones when your bull is used on 10,000 cows a year instead of just the few that that same bull might breed as a cleanup bull. Something to ponder anyway.
I guess I always try raise cattle with compassion and you do get attached to animals that you see everyday. I actually prefer being around animals more than people most days. Sometimes having manure flung out you is still more enjoyable than dealing with people.
But, I learned very young not to fall in love with 'em. They're an animal. I have never owned an animal that I wouldn't part with for the right price. Except for maybe a couple good dogs I had when i was younger. But when they got old and couldn't get around and they were not living a good life, I didn't think twice about ending it for them.
I hate dead calves too..like I said the dead ones always look like they coulda been a state fair winner. But with regards to ethics of breeding cattle, breeding a carrier to a carrier isn't really any different than using a bull you know is going to throw a big calf that is going to jeopardize the cow and the calfs well being. I'm still waiting for someone to argue that point.
With regards to 7 dead calves being worth 30k. You can't figure it like that. When you say that recip could have been raising a 5000 clean calf you have to assume another recip could do that so you can't say that that recip's dead calf was worth 5000.
Here are my figures on 28 recips carrying a carrierxcarrier mating
7dead 1200x7=8400
Feed for dead cows=500x7=3500
Embryo work=3000(most likely will take multiple flushes to get 28 preg)
Dead calf=no expense for dead calf you factored that cost in by feeding the recip
Feed and depr. for live cows=600x21=12,600
Total expense=27,500
27,500/21 live calves=$1310/calf (keep in mind this is what you have them when they are born, not weaning)
So I think it is very plausible to make money by breeding a carrier to a carrier. I would not do it just to breed a carrier to a carrier, but if you want to use a bull on a certain cow, I think that the TH risk can be one that is worth it if it is the right mating.
Who know's maybe the next great sire is running around as a cleanup bull in someone's pasture. Crazier things have happened. Some bulls take a few years to be "found." The popularity and the quality of calves out of bull are kind of a snowball effect if you will. Once a bull starts to click on some cows, more cows are bred to him next year, better cows are bred to him the next year. As people get a better handle on what cows a bull works on there is going to better calves out the bull in proceeding years. Thats why if you want to sell semen in my mind you have to practically give it away at the beginning, to start the snowball rollling. Sell the semen cheaper than you should, give some away to the breeders that you know have good cows, etc.... Then once you have a popular bull there is going to be a lot more good ones when your bull is used on 10,000 cows a year instead of just the few that that same bull might breed as a cleanup bull. Something to ponder anyway.
I guess I always try raise cattle with compassion and you do get attached to animals that you see everyday. I actually prefer being around animals more than people most days. Sometimes having manure flung out you is still more enjoyable than dealing with people.
But, I learned very young not to fall in love with 'em. They're an animal. I have never owned an animal that I wouldn't part with for the right price. Except for maybe a couple good dogs I had when i was younger. But when they got old and couldn't get around and they were not living a good life, I didn't think twice about ending it for them.
I hate dead calves too..like I said the dead ones always look like they coulda been a state fair winner. But with regards to ethics of breeding cattle, breeding a carrier to a carrier isn't really any different than using a bull you know is going to throw a big calf that is going to jeopardize the cow and the calfs well being. I'm still waiting for someone to argue that point.
With regards to 7 dead calves being worth 30k. You can't figure it like that. When you say that recip could have been raising a 5000 clean calf you have to assume another recip could do that so you can't say that that recip's dead calf was worth 5000.
Here are my figures on 28 recips carrying a carrierxcarrier mating
7dead 1200x7=8400
Feed for dead cows=500x7=3500
Embryo work=3000(most likely will take multiple flushes to get 28 preg)
Dead calf=no expense for dead calf you factored that cost in by feeding the recip
Feed and depr. for live cows=600x21=12,600
Total expense=27,500
27,500/21 live calves=$1310/calf (keep in mind this is what you have them when they are born, not weaning)
So I think it is very plausible to make money by breeding a carrier to a carrier. I would not do it just to breed a carrier to a carrier, but if you want to use a bull on a certain cow, I think that the TH risk can be one that is worth it if it is the right mating.
There are so many good bulls - cleanup and otherwise - running around in pastures all over the country there are plenty of "accident" calves that turn out really good. Those are the ones I think often get called something else. I know we have a hard enough time selling calves out of our bulls. They never have as many good ones consistently as the "big ones", but there are so many calves out of other bulls you get plenty of good ones just on sheer number.
I think this discussion is comparing way too many apples to oranges now. We've got folks talking about registered shorthorn cattle vs. crossbred black cattle vs. lots of talk about killing cows (i.e. PHA) when I think most people were referring to TH (most commonly just a dead calf).
In show steers, nothing has touched Heat Wave for a while. Nothing has dominated shorthorn steers like Double Vision for a long time. Despite use of these bulls, there isn't near as much "cow killing" going on as is being depicted. 99% of people got smart about this in a hurry.
I used the devil for the first time this past fall so I don't know first hand, but in reality how much trouble does Heat Wave really cause calving? Can anybody put a percentage on how many calves you have to pull, c-sections, etc? I know there are more than a few, but is it really more than say 10% of the cows bred to him? I haven't had ANY calving trouble out of some of his sons for two years now (around 40 calves total).
I think this discussion is comparing way too many apples to oranges now. We've got folks talking about registered shorthorn cattle vs. crossbred black cattle vs. lots of talk about killing cows (i.e. PHA) when I think most people were referring to TH (most commonly just a dead calf).
In show steers, nothing has touched Heat Wave for a while. Nothing has dominated shorthorn steers like Double Vision for a long time. Despite use of these bulls, there isn't near as much "cow killing" going on as is being depicted. 99% of people got smart about this in a hurry.
I used the devil for the first time this past fall so I don't know first hand, but in reality how much trouble does Heat Wave really cause calving? Can anybody put a percentage on how many calves you have to pull, c-sections, etc? I know there are more than a few, but is it really more than say 10% of the cows bred to him? I haven't had ANY calving trouble out of some of his sons for two years now (around 40 calves total).
Jill
Well-known member
I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that we have never done a C-Section at all, the ones we have had serious trouble getting the calves out were full flush cows on calving ease bulls. We do help with most of our Heat Waves, but we help with a lot of sires, we aren't very patient, I'd rather help and have a live calf than wait and find out we should of helped. I can say this, Heat Wave is one sire we have never lost a calf, they do come big and if bred to a heifer you are going to have a problem, but in our herd they are a non issue.
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