One of our junior herd sires

[oakbar]

I haven't been on SP in months and I've got to say that I enjoyed reading this entire thread.  Seems like a lot of opinions  haven't changed too much and the dicussion is still pretty lively!! LOL 

 

[oakview]

By natural I meant that he did not appear to be so "show stuffed."  He was in more moderate condition and might be more able to breed cows in the next 90 days than some of the other bulls.  I don't think he spent the last 6 months in a cooler and just appeared to be in more moderate condition.  I really appreciate cattle that look good, or outstanding in this case, in reasonable condition.  Roger Hunsley lectured us 30 years ago about our show cattle getting too fat.  They're fatter now, in some cases by far, and we're told it is "fleshing ability."  How many products are advertised and used to promote that "full" look?  How many inquiries on this site have been about getting that show animal to deepen and appear softer?  That's the nature of the beast now and I understand it.  I'm just commenting that Moore's bull looked like maybe he hadn't been babied as much as some of the others and still looked great. 

 

[justintime]

By natural I meant that he did not appear to be so "show stuffed."  He was in more moderate condition and might be more able to breed cows in the next 90 days than some of the other bulls.  I don't think he spent the last 6 months in a cooler and just appeared to be in more moderate condition.  I really appreciate cattle that look good, or outstanding in this case, in reasonable condition.  Roger Hunsley lectured us 30 years ago about our show cattle getting too fat.  They're fatter now, in some cases by far, and we're told it is "fleshing ability."  How many products are advertised and used to promote that "full" look?  How many inquiries on this site have been about getting that show animal to deepen and appear softer?  That's the nature of the beast now and I understand it.  I'm just commenting that Moore's bull looked like maybe he hadn't been babied as much as some of the others and still looked great.


Lonny, you have identified one of my major concerns about what is happening in the show ring today. It is happening in every breed. I am shocked when I see how fat some of the females ( and bulls) are that are being shown today. We hear all the time, about certain show cattle that can't make it in the real world, and I feel that much of this is due to the way they have been stuffed with feed, rather than their genetics. Of course, there are some genetic issues with some cattle which make them more prone to failure when their show careers are over, however, there are also many who can't make it, simply because they have been ruined by their owners. I don't know how we can change this, but it sure would be nice to see the industry in all breeds, get back to showing breeding cattle.

 

[caledon101]

JIT....I think the only way the show ring will move in that direction (more realistic body condition) is if Roger Hunsley and all the other judges on the "A" list get their heads together and make it happen. Once they start punishing exhibitors for over fitting then the trend will begin and the criteria will cascade down to most other judges who won't want to be "out of fashion" in their placings.
Correct me if I am wrong....wasn't it Hunsley and Ritchie who got together years ago and started the trend to reduce frame scores?
You can feed for fat but you have to breed for muscle.
Just back from NAILE and it is concerning to see young heifers being compromised by overfeeding.

 

[TPX]

By natural I meant that he did not appear to be so "show stuffed."  He was in more moderate condition and might be more able to breed cows in the next 90 days than some of the other bulls.  I don't think he spent the last 6 months in a cooler and just appeared to be in more moderate condition.  I really appreciate cattle that look good, or outstanding in this case, in reasonable condition.  Roger Hunsley lectured us 30 years ago about our show cattle getting too fat.  They're fatter now, in some cases by far, and we're told it is "fleshing ability."  How many products are advertised and used to promote that "full" look?  How many inquiries on this site have been about getting that show animal to deepen and appear softer?  That's the nature of the beast now and I understand it.  I'm just commenting that Moore's bull looked like maybe he hadn't been babied as much as some of the others and still looked great.


Lonny, you have identified one of my major concerns about what is happening in the show ring today. It is happening in every breed. I am shocked when I see how fat some of the females ( and bulls) are that are being shown today. We hear all the time, about certain show cattle that can't make it in the real world, and I feel that much of this is due to the way they have been stuffed with feed, rather than their genetics. Of course, there are some genetic issues with some cattle which make them more prone to failure when their show careers are over, however, there are also many who can't make it, simply because they have been ruined by their owners. I don't know how we can change this, but it sure would be nice to see the industry in all breeds, get back to showing breeding cattle.

The simple fact that there were a lot of Bred Heifers at Agribition that weighed over 1600 lbs blew my mind.  The average cow on our farm weighs 1400-1600 and most bred heifers in that 1100-1250 range.  The bred heifer we showed weighed a little over 1200 lbs and for he frame size we were worried she was a little over conditioned. 

 

[caledon101]

I remember 25 years ago at the RAWF in Toronto seeing some Simmie bred heifers that were pushing a ton. Just unreal to see that. However, never saw them again after that either.
Everybody has to do what they think is best. That particular breeder was very open and honest about trying to build them as big as possible. That was the program.....but, different era too! Those were the days when frame score hugely influenced show placings. Feed was cheap I guess.

 

[oakview]

I enjoy walking through the aisles of all the breeds at shows.  Last week I saw some Angus heifers that had to be pushing 16-1700 pounds.  Time to moderate?  Yeah, right.  The show cattle of most every breed are still big.  15-20 years ago there were ton Angus Junior Yearling females in Denver and I'll bet there will be some again next January.  Many years ago Rick Hoyt judged Shorthorns in Louisville.  He commented about how big the cattle were, but said something that I always thought and really agree with.  He said that show cattle will always be bigger than their commercially oriented relatives simply because of how they have been handled.  Show cattle, for the most part, never have a hungry moment, always have a comfortable environment, and never have to walk around 240 acres looking for feed. Cattle taken care of like show cattle will generally be heavier at all stages of life.  Or at least until their show careers are over!  I still say the best way to buy true breeding cattle is to identify somebody that raises cattle similar to how you do, has genetics you think will work, and pick them out in their plain clothes.  Why anybody wanting a herd bull would buy a bull out of a show barn is beyond me.  Unless, of course, his sole purpose is to produce show calves.

 

[aj]

I would agree with oakview......but wait.....there will be a new Shorthorn breeder come on here and it will be the ole "How come thebeef /industry doesn't embrace the Shorthorn breed"? And some one will have to lead through the big bwt and cow size all over again.

 

[r.n.reed]

But wait............. AJ, If you agree with Oakview does that mean you are only selling show calves by your Denver Champion? ;D

 

[aj]

Well played my friend.

 

[r.n.reed]

Sorry AJ I could not resist.I concur with Oakview as well.Happy Thanksgiving !

 

[justintime]

I started this thread about our junior herd sire back last summer. We were taking pictures of our sale bulls and replacement heifers today, and decided to take a picture of Free Spirit as well. Here is how he looked today. We could hardly get him on our scale which is supposed to weigh up to 4000 lbs, but we eventually squeezed him into it. He weighed 2508 lbs today and he was 3 year old on Feb 2nd/14. His first calf arrived in January and it is an impressive bull calf that weighed 92 lbs unassisted from a 3 year old DF Pure Gold daughter He has excellent thickness and length just like his sire.

Free Spirit is extremely easy fleshing and he probably gets most of this trait from his dam Elsie's Jade. She is still here at 15 years of age and still is one of the fattest cows on the place while only getting hay for nutrition during a very cold winter.

 

[justintime]

Here is another picture of Free Spirit. We now have semen stored at Hawkeye for the US. Semen also available in Canada and a large shipment of his semen is in the process of being shipped to Ireland. A group of Irish breeders have purchased the European semen rights in him.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Put him on a 0 BW cow and all the bases are covered-it may not be a big time show animal,but it would incorporate an extremely impressive and enough generations( with practicality) away from some of the hugest non-calving ease genetics:along with progeny that will do as well in commercial conditions as any. The Salutes were very attractive none-the less: and he appears to still have that deep ribbed look of some of the line bred Solution-Salute ET-als-along with his dams and grandams qualities. He looks to me (from the pictures) to be the best bull from my perspective youve come up with in a while.If I ever get a hiefer out of my 3 embryos on Hardings Capital Gains,and my old Marjorie cow ,Id try him second round for sure. O0

 

[oakview]

That bull is flat out good.  I liked him in the original post, but his development has been incredible.  I stumbled across some cow named 'Dorothy' that he might work on.  At least he'd be an improvement over the Angus bull she was bred to when I got her!  (Private joke with the UB). I haven't AIed too many over the past few years.  Might be time to get the kit out of the basement.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

That bull is flat out good.  I liked him in the original post, but his development has been incredible.  I stumbled across some cow named 'Dorothy' that he might work on.  At least he'd be an improvement over the Angus bull she was bred to when I got her!  (Private joke with the UB). I haven't AIed too many over the past few years.  Might be time to get the kit out of the basement.

// YOU READ MY MIND: PLUS-Kaba works on her family,and her (OLD old school) mother is a grandaughter of Huberdale PM Lora x MSF Equity-cant see for the life of me why Touchdown didnt knick on Dorothy-he did on everything else. O0 (clapping)

 

[jaimiediamond]

I think that he would do a lot of herds a lot of good, his dam is one of my all time favorite females in the breed. Free Spirit was one of my favorite bulls at Agribition in both 2012 and 2013.    <beer>

 

[justintime]

A few weeks before weaning, Free Spirit got his tail stepped on, out in the pasture, and when I found him, he was covered in blood and his switch was completely tore off. I expect he was lying down and when his tail was stepped on, he must have jumped up, and tore his own tail off. I have heard from vets that this can be a very dangerous injury as if bacteria or infection enter the tail, it will go through the animal very fast and it can kill an animal before any treatment can have affect.
I had never worked with this calf at all, and I decided out on grass was probably the cleanest place for him to be until some healing took place. He was so quiet, that he would let me spray his bloody stump of a tail with wound treatment, and I  would walk up and spray it on his tail at least a couple times a day. Once it looked like it was healed, I then weaned him. Despite losing his switch, some hair has grown back, but it took a very long time. It still doesn't look like a normal switch but it is better than I thought it would be at the time it happened.

 

[justintime]

I thought I would post a picture of our Free Spirit bull as he looks after a month of breeding cows on pasture. He was 3 year old in February and weighed 2508 lbs then. I am really pleased with how he is holding his condition on pasture after breeding most of the cows he is with. I think he is close to what a real beef bull is supposed to look like. He has tremendous thickness and length and is quite moderate framed. He has great feet and legs and excellent testicles ( 44 cm). After seeing his first calves here, we are using him extensively in our ET program and have already sold embryos sired  by him to Scotland and the US. So far, all his calves have been born unassisted and all have been in the 88-95 lb range. We have sold the European semen rights in Free Spirit to a group of breeders in Ireland. We have semen stored in the US at Hawkeye Breeders, in Iowa and in Canada at Alta Genetics and Eastgen in Ontario. Of all the bulls we have collected over the years, Free Spirit holds the record here of producing 1328 straws of excellent quality semen on his first collection.

 

[Doc]

He looks really good Grant.