Opinion on defect carriers

[Telos]

Someone said on another site, that TH and PHA will eventually weed themselves out.

I think people are the only thing which will weed out these defects. With the the show ring presence which seems to come from these two defects, it will be difficult for many not to breed for TH or PHA clean cattle. For instance, at the present time, TH carrier bulls are still in high demand because they produce winners and winner equates to more dollars. PHA is perhaps a little different. I think the clean offspring from PHA carriers will have tremendous value. Attention to good management practices and honesty will need to be more deligent when breeding PHA carriers to acquire clean offspring. JMHO

I think  having a test changes the dynamics of these defects. The questions I have are, does the extra time and expense to manage these two defects make it worthwhile to even mess with?  Will these practices be a complete turn off to the prospective commercial cow calf operators in search for herd bulls or replacement females?  Will certain breeds of cattle get a bad reputation?  What will the short and long terms ramifications be when practicing this kind of management?

 

[DLD]

I've got to say that I've struggled with this one all day. I'm pretty firm about my stance on using carriers, and I think everyone that's read my posts on showsteers knows what it is, so I'm not going to even get into that again. I do feel like I need to address a couple of statements that have been made in this thread, however.

First of all, I do not have so much disposable income that I can afford to use carriers. Fact is, I can't afford not to use the dozen or so outstanding females I've raised that are potential carriers. Simple enough for SJ to tell me to just dispose of them... It would cost me at least 4 or 5 times what they'd bring for slaughter to replace them with tested clean females of the same quality - to me that makes testing and management look pretty darn cheap.

It's fine with me that some of you find steer shows stupid or silly - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but you probably need to remember it's just that - an opinion. If you want to see something more than 750 pounds of meat  resulting from a steer show, I'd like to introduce you to some very fine young people who have become succesful in many different fields, who credit their experience in showing steers with being a big step in getting them where they are today.

I've been involved in showing cattle - junior steers, junior heifers, and open class breeding stock for my whole life. Back stabbing and bad mouthing are hardly limited to the steer barn. Neither is impracticality. If you want to be serious about raising commercial cattle that are low input, high performing, good feeding cattle that hang top dollar carcasses, I honestly believe that the percentage of cattle in the steer show that'll do that is just as high as the percentage of breeding cattle shown that will. I'm not knocking any of it, I love it all, but anybody who considers the breeding shows to be more fair or practical than the market shows is  just another pot calling the kettle black.

But of course, that's all just my opinion...

David

 

[deep]

First of all, I do not have so much disposable income that I can afford to use carriers. Fact is, I can't afford not to use the dozen or so outstanding females I've raised that are potential carriers. Simple enough for SJ to tell me to just dispose of them... It would cost me at least 4 or 5 times what they'd bring for slaughter to replace them with tested clean females of the same quality - to me that makes testing and management look pretty darn cheap.

I'm not a very good computer operator, Red has probably already hit the sack, but I want to HIGHLIGHT what DLD said in previous post.  The SECOND PARAGRAPH.  Could not agree more !!!  The cost of testing and management is a lot less than to dispose of and replace carriers or potential carriers !!!  Amen, amen, amen !!

(Is this what you wanted?- Red)     
(dog)

 

[Jill]

I don't think we should be "hammering" anyone, I don't have a problem with your choice of not to use a carrier bull, but the comment "Are they so desperate to win a stupid steer show that they think they need to use this genetic garbage to get it done?" makes me just a mad.  For some of us, winning a stupid steer show IS our business and my choice of bull does not make me stupid, it makes me money.  I am honest and plan to stay that way, but please stop calling me stupid. 

I did not call anyone stupid... I said that people were soo desperate to win a stupid steer show!!!!  Facts are people put so much importance on  a project that  has not real end result... other than 750# of red meat!  Go to any county fair that has a carcass contest and the carcass winner gets less press than the live winner ...that really makes no sense....I have raised several class winners... and we have had 2 Co fair Grands and 2-3 reserves.... not many can boast that and we have NEVER bred a cow and said BOY I hope she has a steer.....And I hate all the back stabbing and bad mouthing that goes on in the steer barn... its always the 1 head wonders that paid too much from some steer jock or clubby sale  and could not find a good one out in the pasture even if it had a $100 bill tied to its tail!!! IMO the highest paid most prestigious class in any show should be the Bred born and raised heifer show... The kid that wins that should be the one who everyone looks up to.....Not the kid whos grandpa payed $3500 for the calf wins Grand sells the steer in the sale and ends up still loosing $500....  I guess its just a matter of priorities.... I want want my kids to idolize guys like Lee Bigham or Ron Bolze, or Henry Bergfeld or Gary Ericsson.... And at a young age appreciate what these people are like and try to be more like them than not!

Now see, if you had just said that I would of agreed with you 100%, that is way different than your original post.  Thank You

It is all a matter of interpretation and since we can't see faces or hear tone we interpret things how they have appeared in our lives before - I read sj's comments just like he rephrased them to you - I never heard him call anyone stupid or hammer anyone - I believe we need to step back from our sensitivities - calling an event stupid or silly or foolish does not equate with calling people stupid or silly or foolish. I think the Miss America pageant is shear idiocy - although some of the contestants are bright, well educated and civic minded. It ain't my thing - but more power to those who want to do it!

Jill - did you show the reserve heifer in Iowa in 87? (if I have aged you unfairly please forgive me!! ;D DL

No, I never had the opportunity to show, I lived in the city and couldn't have even listed 3 breeds of cattle for you.  I married a man from the farm who had sold his family out of the cattle business when they were on vacation (long story my children better never hear) and he has induldged my desire to raise cattle which for me is an absolute passion and no, you are not aging me, I graduated in 78 I think you're thinking of a different Jill.

 

[Telos]

Growing up showing steers and heifers was one of the most important experiences of my upbringing.  It taught me many lessons. I'm a supporter of the Junior livestock program and believe it to be important today. There is nothing wrong with the showing of livestock being a competitive sport. We support baseball, football, basketball and feel pretty good about what values they bring to our young generation. This is all about working hard and being competitive and hopefully learning some of life's lessons. I just hope the lessons learned are the right ones.

These livestock shows probably are a bit silly, but feel all the other competitive sports are a little silly, too. All sports seem to raise questions about ethical behavior. People become obsessed with winning and sometimes their moral judgement becomes impaired. Policing these activities will always be a part of our culture.
 
Adjustments should always be ongoing to help keep this a viable sport which reflects what the beef industry is about. Change is sometimes slow.

Bottom line, all these sports bring many of us some form of entertainment and in my opinion that's a good thing.

 

[DL]

I've got to say that I've struggled with this one all day. I'm pretty firm about my stance on using carriers, and I think everyone that's read my posts on showsteers knows what it is, so I'm not going to even get into that again. I do feel like I need to address a couple of statements that have been made in this thread, however.

First of all, I do not have so much disposable income that I can afford to use carriers. Fact is, I can't afford not to use the dozen or so outstanding females I've raised that are potential carriers. Simple enough for SJ to tell me to just dispose of them... It would cost me at least 4 or 5 times what they'd bring for slaughter to replace them with tested clean females of the same quality - to me that makes testing and management look pretty darn cheap.

It's fine with me that some of you find steer shows stupid or silly - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but you probably need to remember it's just that - an opinion. If you want to see something more than 750 pounds of meat  resulting from a steer show, I'd like to introduce you to some very fine young people who have become succesful in many different fields, who credit their experience in showing steers with being a big step in getting them where they are today.

I've been involved in showing cattle - junior steers, junior heifers, and open class breeding stock for my whole life. Back stabbing and bad mouthing are hardly limited to the steer barn. Neither is impracticality. If you want to be serious about raising commercial cattle that are low input, high performing, good feeding cattle that hang top dollar carcasses, I honestly believe that the percentage of cattle in the steer show that'll do that is just as high as the percentage of breeding cattle shown that will. I'm not knocking any of it, I love it all, but anybody who considers the breeding shows to be more fair or practical than the market shows is  just another pot calling the kettle black.

But of course, that's all just my opinion...

David

DLD - as always a thoughtful post. For the record (since I have the target on my back) I  didn't say dispose of carrier females - I think there are many people who (perhaps thru no fault or knowledge of their own) ended up with carrier females - you would be a fool and a poor business manager to ship them all. (I do however believe bulls are a different issue, and deepa nd I have agreed to talk about dogs breath and not carrier bulls!)

Also having said steer shows are silly - I also said that they are good family activities, help youth etc.I support our local 4H and Block and Bridle and help the kids when and if I can - the best kids to employ are kids with a livestock background - they understand responsibility, hard work, committment etc but I still think steer shows are silly  - as Telos said it is a form of entertainment and we all find our amusement differently - I work hard with my cattle but I can't imagine spending hours on their hair - if you saw mine you would understand! We have sun and the Sabres have moved on (some call hockey a silly sport!- even some people I really like!!) DL

 

[DLD]

Deep, like I said, it's easy enough for others to say what we should do with our carriers.

Telos, I believe I've been guilty of saying TH and PHA will eventually weed themselves out. You're right of course, it won't happen without we as breeders making it happen, but what I meant was that I think the carrier cattle will fall out of favor enough over the coming years, that the problem will pretty much fade away. I don't know, maybe that's just wishful thinking... I appreciate your post on showing - well said.

Thanks DL. I know you didn't say to dispose of ALL carriers - I believe I credited the author of that statement.

I guess silly means different things to different people. Spending hours every day working hair might seem silly to some, but personally I see it as a lesson in life - no matter what you do, there's gonna be alot of less than exciting hard work leading up to most any success you're gonna have.

 

[deep]

Yep Red, that's what I wanted, just didn't know how to do it.  How'd you do it?    ???

DL, we can talk about all sorts of stuff. 

DLD,  It is a precarious situation to have  carriers, but as you know you do the best you can with what ya have.  That's what we do.
         



        (dog)

 

[red]

Deep- I'm just that good!!!

Red

 

[DL]

As a point of clarification - and I hope I haven't done it but we have all been guilty of some thing some times so here we go -

MY FEELEINGS ON TH AND PHA ARE MY FEELINGS - MY OPINIONS - HOW I WILL MANAGE MY HERD. ​

We humans basically created these defects by our breeding strategies. We humans are responsible for fixing the mess. It won't go away on it's own, Darwin is on vacation!

If you are honest I do not care what you do (that is a generic you). If you (again generic) are dishonest then I do care because it is bad for the breed, the industry, the people involved and the cows, and it causes the slime-o-meter to work overtime.

[size=10pt]
Now Deep if you think Red is good how does that grab you![/size]​

(cow) (cow) (cow)

 

[shortyjock89]

SCJJ- I like the way you think.  Around here, the heifer show is more competitive than the steer show.  Also, most of the good heifers are bred and owned.  I like that about our county (by the way, I live in East Central IL).  I do show steers, but only the one's that I raise, and only one per year.  I have done pretty good too.  Last year I had 5 breed champions, State Preview Show Bred and Owned Champion, Reserve Grand Bred and Owned at County Fair, and numerous Res. Champs.  I was pretty happy with that since I raised my steer.  My dad told me early in life that having a good home-raised heifer is twice as good as buying a good one.  Oh, and back to the TH PHA thing.  We usedto breed one cow/year to Kool, just because he works so well on that cow.  We cut all the bulls we get out of him (they end up being the show steers).  We didnt breed that cow back to him this year, but used a TH/PHA free alternate.  I guess it's just up to each individual, but we don't have any carrier cows in our herd, and it's staying that way, no matter how good they may look. 

 

[Show Heifer]

Can you believe I waited this long to respond??? Been gone so have to catch up!
I will not use carriers. End of story. But, I don't care if someone else does, AS LONG AS THEY ARE HONEST.
I have heard the excuse that "Carriers just make better show animals.." and "that is what the judges want, so that is what I have to use..." So my response to that is: That maybe what is desirable NOW, but as we all know, the type of cattle that wins is constantly evolving, from super tall, guttless wonders, to the super short, squaty critters, from any color to only black, and back to about anything. So, eventually, maybe (and I am no future teller) that the "type" that is associated with TH or PHA will fall to the way side and that will not be desirable and therefore, no reason to breed to carriers to produce that "purple ribbon."
I don't condemn anyone that is making an honest living doing anything (including selling clubbies or breeding carriers). In fact, I don't even hang up on telemarketers (hey, they at least have a job and are not on welfare!) ;D ;D
What I have a BIG (and I mean HUGE) problem with is the dishonesty and the withholding of info from the cattle buying public.  That will not only ruin a breeders reputation, but the BREEDS reputation.  No one should tolerate someone taking advantage of an uneducated youth family, or the dumping of carriers at a salebarn only to be bought by a commercial producer. No one should tolerate the selling of sex to promote a bull (OK, I just couldn't resist- sorry)  Somehow, we as an industry need  to have standards. I am not sure how to accomplish that, but something has to be done about the dishonesty, lack of info, and the withholding of info.
I do enjoy all the different views on this board....very interesting on how the same topic can be seen in so many different lights!!  And even though I don't agree with all of them, it sure makes me understand a point of view that is different than my own!! Thanks everyone!!! (clapping) (clapping)

 

[deep]

DL and RED,  I'm jealous.  Ya use all these colors and different print styles.  I do good to hit the right buttons to just reply !!!

Show Heifer, I thought I was the only person under the sun that DOESN'T  hang up on telemarketers or run Jehovah Witnesses off the porch !!!! 

Seriously.  I agree that it's a cool deal to have people express their different opinions and be tolerated.  Nobody has to agree with anything, but tolerance is the key.

As I mentioned earlier, it doesn't make a hill of beans what type business you're in.  Honesty is the best way to go, and through honesty (and tolerance) you can also educate.

One thing I've figured out about these @#$% computers..... they really put people at a disadvantage on communication.  Doesn't THAT sound backwards !!!  What I mean is, (and I think someone else mentioned this earlier) you have absolutely no emotion, no facial expressions, no voice tone.  Sometimes something can be said and taken completely the wrong way, because it was not an "in person" conversation.  I'm not even a big telephone user because I just like to communicate with people face to face. 

I enjoy hanging out on this cattle board.  As big a dog person as I am, I do not even visit dog boards, don't even know any.  Alot of interesting personalities on here and I'm glad.  I think we might ought to have a reunion.

(dog)

 

 

[garybob]

Somewhere, in the near future, there SHOULD be an end to the existence of carriers. Otherwise, we are just prolonging things. After enough "clean" offspring of carriers have been produced, then, take the carriers to the locker. Whatever you do, again a generic YOU, be honest.

 

[Gypsy]

This is just my opinion, but I think that an important thing to remember in this discussion about what we will do or not do with our carrier animals, is to REMEMBER how we got to this point.  I want to say right now that I am really only talking about PHA.  I have NO experience with TH (and I absolutely never will have.!) and I think the club calf business is a completely different business than mine. My business is raising Maine-Anjou bulls for commercial cattleman.  What I mean by "how we got to this point" is how did PHA get to be as prevalent as it is?  I firmly believe that the only "new" thing about PHA to a handful of breeders is the name that was finally attached to it.  I cannot for the life of me figure out how some of the breeders of the big name PHA carriers could not have had a PHA calf in the last 5-10 years.  I just don't believe that they did not have a clue that their animals had a genetic defect.  I think/believe that they just did not care about the smaller/"dumber"/less worldly/whatever you want to call it breeders and buyers out here.  They simply cared more about how much money they could make than anything else.  They certainly did not care what this did to the Shorthorn or Maine-Anjou breeds or their reputations. 

I have numerous females in my herd that I am struggling to deal with.  Yes, they are some of my "best" animals.  (Great definition of best - PHA carrier  :'().  But what a pain to have to test each calf out of each cow each year.  There are lots of things I would rather spend that $500.00 on.  And what do I do with the females?  Males easy - steer.  I say easy but instead of a $1500 - $2000 yearling bull, I will have a $700 steer.  Ouch.   

Anyway, to show my gratitude to these breeders for putting me in this position.  I have decided on the following:

I will NEVER buy another animal or any semen from these breeders EVER again.  I have in the past (obviously or I wouldn't be dealing with PHA).  But never, ever again will I give them one thin dime.  I don't care how "hot" or great their bloodlines are, NEVER EVER AGAIN.  I will spend my money with honest people.  I suppose that they will not even notice or care they I am no longer attending their sales, but I will feel much better.

What these breeders have done and are continuing to do to the Maine-Anjou breed is sickening.  I'm very tired of it.  Think I'll switch to raising Corrientes. : JMO.

 

 

[DL]

This is just my opinion, but I think that an important thing to remember in this discussion about what we will do or not do with our carrier animals, is to REMEMBER how we got to this point.  I want to say right now that I am really only talking about PHA.  I have NO experience with TH (and I absolutely never will have.!) and I think the club calf business is a completely different business than mine. My business is raising Maine-Anjou bulls for commercial cattleman.  What I mean by "how we got to this point" is how did PHA get to be as prevalent as it is?  I firmly believe that the only "new" thing about PHA to a handful of breeders is the name that was finally attached to it.  I cannot for the life of me figure out how some of the breeders of the big name PHA carriers could not have had a PHA calf in the last 5-10 years.  I just don't believe that they did not have a clue that their animals had a genetic defect.  I think/believe that they just did not care about the smaller/"dumber"/less worldly/whatever you want to call it breeders and buyers out here.  They simply cared more about how much money they could make than anything else.  They certainly did not care what this did to the Shorthorn or Maine-Anjou breeds or their reputations. 

I have numerous females in my herd that I am struggling to deal with.  Yes, they are some of my "best" animals.  (Great definition of best - PHA carrier  :'().  But what a pain to have to test each calf out of each cow each year.  There are lots of things I would rather spend that $500.00 on.  And what do I do with the females?  Males easy - steer.  I say easy but instead of a $1500 - $2000 yearling bull, I will have a $700 steer.  Ouch.   

Anyway, to show my gratitude to these breeders for putting me in this position.  I have decided on the following:

I will NEVER buy another animal or any semen from these breeders EVER again.  I have in the past (obviously or I wouldn't be dealing with PHA).  But never, ever again will I give them one thin dime.  I don't care how "hot" or great their bloodlines are, NEVER EVER AGAIN.  I will spend my money with honest people.  I suppose that they will not even notice or care they I am no longer attending their sales, but I will feel much better.

What these breeders have done and are continuing to do to the Maine-Anjou breed is sickening.  I'm very tired of it.  Think I'll switch to raising Corrientes. : JMO.

 

Gypsy - I think that you are not alone in being someone who got to this point by trusting people who clearly were either (1) lying and high on the slime-o-dex, but they talked good! (2) not the sharpest tacks in the box (gee that is the 48th ugly fat waterlogged calf we have had this year - now ain't that bad luck) (3) greedy and able to dispose of calves born with PHA (and the cow of course in some cases) because the were going to raise the great one (4) unethical (5) put a higher value on screwing people out of $ than either the people themselves, their livelihood, or their stock (6) all of the above.

The other thing I have seen lately is people dumping carriers or embryos from carrier matings so they can get big bucks prior to the "word getting out" - selling carriers at sales that don't require testing etc - where does this put these buyers turned sellers ---> are they really any better that those guys above?

Re Corrientes I know a guy you could probably partner with - honest and has a really nice wife, great kid in law school (I think there may be another kid too - equally as special)...I would steer clear of the bucking bulls though, there is big money of course and you will never guess who is involved - partial interest in some pretty elite bulls - remove your hat partially when you cogitate on that one!

What I love about you is that you stew and fret and cogitate and try to make the best moral, ethical and financial decision for now and the future - GYPSY  is a gem! If more people gave the same consideration and concern sure would be a better place - and there would be sweet rolls every day!! DL

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks for the kind words DL -  I know I am not alone here.  I just am very, very frustrated that a lot of people think it is okay to go back to the poisoned well, because they have now been armed with a poisen detection kit and have been told that the poisoner(s) won't ever do it again.  (Really! Gosh! Honest! They had no idea that that had happened).  And guess what, the water is even better now.  Really. Sure.  I just don't buy it (literally and figuratively).  Really folks, think about this!

As for that Corriente breeder you mentioned, he is honest and a great guy and he had THREE great kids, but the wife is really not that nice, she is a very opinionated old bat that has a hard time keeping her thoughts to herself.

About the bucking bulls, already knew all that, can't wait to see how long it takes for that breed to go the way of another.  It's a shame.

 

[OH Breeder]

[size=10pt]Okay this is my humble opinion. I don't think that TH and PH carriers are the preferred phenotype and create a desireable trait because, if that were true, how about SOnny, Trump, Cunia, Habenero etc. I think that some desireable animals with a desirable appearing phenotype were consistently bred and selected, there by propagating the defect. The defect did not create these desireable traits, our choice in using carrier genetics created desireable cattle who just happen to carry a lethal defect. [/size]

 

[aj]

Has trump been pha tested or th tested though.

 

[DL]

If Trump is CF Trump X #3909231 then he is TH negative per the ASA web site - if that isn't him then I don't think he has been tested. When will the ASA search engine be back - it has been gone longer that our friend in sw ks...