I have a PB charolais 2nd calf heifer that I'm going to breed in a few months. I want to breed her PB charolais and see what she throws (her 1st calf was a WMW). I'd like for him to add some bone and a little frame. She's a bid moderate for my taste. Any ideas are appreciated!
PB Charolais
- Thread starter DLB
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cotullaguy
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DLB,
You want more frame and performance i want to up the ante and get better maternal and performance. The only two wild cards are the amount of calving ease you need and the show record of the bull.
Some ideas on easily obtained AI bulls:
SVY PILGRIM PLD 655S http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00953&lang=EN
GERRARD MONTEZUMA 6T http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00958&lang=EN
EC No Doubt 2022 Pld http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00945&lang=ENhttp://www.egglestoncharolais.com/id65.html
For pure performance: LT Rio Blanco http://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd.asp?ID=61
How about using a Full French Bull: http://www.brokenboxranch.com/charolais/semensales.htm
What is this cows pedigree? EPDs?
I only use complete bulls. Why compromise?
You want more frame and performance i want to up the ante and get better maternal and performance. The only two wild cards are the amount of calving ease you need and the show record of the bull.
Some ideas on easily obtained AI bulls:
SVY PILGRIM PLD 655S http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00953&lang=EN
GERRARD MONTEZUMA 6T http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00958&lang=EN
EC No Doubt 2022 Pld http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00945&lang=ENhttp://www.egglestoncharolais.com/id65.html
For pure performance: LT Rio Blanco http://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd.asp?ID=61
How about using a Full French Bull: http://www.brokenboxranch.com/charolais/semensales.htm
What is this cows pedigree? EPDs?
I only use complete bulls. Why compromise?
afhm
Well-known member
Oahe Wind or Big Cat
Bradenh
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Mt. Lead on O0
Freddy
Well-known member
OF the bulls listed in my opinion EC NO DOUBT is the only one with suitable BW- EPD an enough accuracy to be reliable. The female you have would also make a difference ,consistency on most of the Charolais bulls BW has been a problem for years. The people that find reliable birth weight Charolais bulls will stay with the breed ,more challenging in the winter country where calf birthweights are bigger due to cold weather .... We have sacrificed some growth in our herd trying to get reasonable birth weights that are consistant ...Have been around Charolais since late 50's , had cattle from a herd in Kyle ,Texas an birth weight were not as big a problem till the French Charolais hit the Charolais breed.. They were bigger, not shaped for calving ,also had lot more bone an had some structure problems ...But every one wanted there cattle to grow faster , an we used them also , but that was when Charolais cattle birth problems
started . Thats my opinion , also back then most herds had Brahma influence, but that was one thing we never used where we lived up in the cold country an was not sure they would survive ....LT Bluegrass is also a proven calving ease bull that should work ....
started . Thats my opinion , also back then most herds had Brahma influence, but that was one thing we never used where we lived up in the cold country an was not sure they would survive ....LT Bluegrass is also a proven calving ease bull that should work ....
Freddy,
The cow killers of the 1960's are long gone. The the only use or super light birth weight bulls in our area is to calve heifers. Generally cows can handle birth weights out of bulls with birth weight EPDs up to +5 with no increase in calving problems. Plenty would depend on the calving ease needed as I stated but given that this is her second calf and he wants more frame and bone the use of a power bull with reasonable birth weights likely would work.
like I said what is her birth weight, breeding EPDs?
The cow killers of the 1960's are long gone. The the only use or super light birth weight bulls in our area is to calve heifers. Generally cows can handle birth weights out of bulls with birth weight EPDs up to +5 with no increase in calving problems. Plenty would depend on the calving ease needed as I stated but given that this is her second calf and he wants more frame and bone the use of a power bull with reasonable birth weights likely would work.
like I said what is her birth weight, breeding EPDs?
Freddy
Well-known member
I agree with alot your saying Mark , but if there 100 lbs or more your chances of selling them deteriate pretty fast. I try to work with a 2. EPDS for cows an under 0 or know the bull an seen or used the bull... We used Wyoming Wind on heifers an got along great calving them out in the pasture but some fellow breeders on their cows didn't get along so good ....
Freddy,
We didn't find Wyoming Wind to be particularly hard calving but unless the heifer was very well grown out I wouldn't use him on the average heifer. Too many good choices exist in the Charolais heifer bull market. We try and keep our birth weight to 90 to 105 lbs. or marketability goes out the window. Remember you can dedduct 10 pounds from our birth weights due to environmentsl effect.
We also have to keep in mind that unless a bull has good muscle and growth we also can't get good money for the bulls no matter how easy calving they are. This is the iron law in Canada. Wyoming Wind bulls did not do well in the market place because of this. Some people are trying to develop better calving ease bulls the market will accept. Rawes Ranches is developing calving ease bulls with light birth weights, decent EPDs and a REA/cwt. between 1.20 and 1.30, long with good hair. These cattle have French, fullblood, and some WCR breeding making them an out cross for some one like you. Pleasant Dawn Farms also has some cattle you would be interested in.
The problem in this case is that the guy wants more frame and bone. For this you need power. I do not care want breed you use in this case you won't be using calving ease bulls. It is just the way it is.
We didn't find Wyoming Wind to be particularly hard calving but unless the heifer was very well grown out I wouldn't use him on the average heifer. Too many good choices exist in the Charolais heifer bull market. We try and keep our birth weight to 90 to 105 lbs. or marketability goes out the window. Remember you can dedduct 10 pounds from our birth weights due to environmentsl effect.
We also have to keep in mind that unless a bull has good muscle and growth we also can't get good money for the bulls no matter how easy calving they are. This is the iron law in Canada. Wyoming Wind bulls did not do well in the market place because of this. Some people are trying to develop better calving ease bulls the market will accept. Rawes Ranches is developing calving ease bulls with light birth weights, decent EPDs and a REA/cwt. between 1.20 and 1.30, long with good hair. These cattle have French, fullblood, and some WCR breeding making them an out cross for some one like you. Pleasant Dawn Farms also has some cattle you would be interested in.
The problem in this case is that the guy wants more frame and bone. For this you need power. I do not care want breed you use in this case you won't be using calving ease bulls. It is just the way it is.
Freddy
Well-known member
Was ready this older post and MARK H was referring to 10 lb. environment reduction in birth weight and wondered where this come from....
Freddy-
The 10lb reduction that Mark H was referring to is people say that calves born in the south (Texas and Oklahoma) are normally 10lb lighter at birth than their Northern counterparts. I have heard this for a few years now. Reason I heard was due to the conditions (Texas summers-dry and very hot). Most show calves are born late summer/early fall. Hope this helps....and like I said-this is what I've heard so not sure on the accuracy of it all.
The 10lb reduction that Mark H was referring to is people say that calves born in the south (Texas and Oklahoma) are normally 10lb lighter at birth than their Northern counterparts. I have heard this for a few years now. Reason I heard was due to the conditions (Texas summers-dry and very hot). Most show calves are born late summer/early fall. Hope this helps....and like I said-this is what I've heard so not sure on the accuracy of it all.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
It's bs. Plenty of Cattle born in Canada with low 70lb bws. Just like Matlocks. Their Speckle Parks have bws 20lbs less than their Shortys on the same pasture. It's genetics.
Freddy
Well-known member
We figure that here in NE. ,due to long periods of severe weather ,we have periods in some years temperature not getting above o to 10 below .
Freddy
Well-known member
Also got to thinking about this 10 lbs. and that is probably already adjusted for in the EPD'S system .....Birth weight is still a problem for the breed ,whether from
commercial breeders past experience or some experienced recently .....Recently talked to feeders in NE. losing cattle from heat ,the feeders all agreed that black color definitely was the worse especially in the British breeds ,black or black white face ... Said they would definitely feed more Charolais X cattle if they were available and pay as much for them as anything else out there ...
commercial breeders past experience or some experienced recently .....Recently talked to feeders in NE. losing cattle from heat ,the feeders all agreed that black color definitely was the worse especially in the British breeds ,black or black white face ... Said they would definitely feed more Charolais X cattle if they were available and pay as much for them as anything else out there ...
All I know is I have calved out out around 50 cows bred to Heat Wave sons a year since 2007. The last time I had to pull one bred that way was 2008. If all of the whining about calving ease of club calf bulls is true, there's a cause other than genetics.
trevorgreycattleco
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I think feed has as much to do with it as genetics. You pour the coal to a pregnant cow during winter, you'll have one big ass calf.
hntwhitetail
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trevorgreycattleco said:
BINGO!!
X-Bar : when its -40 and we are calving up here in January our cows consume more feed to keep their body temperature up. When they are in their last trimester you can easily add 10 lbs to the calf. The extra feed that cow is consuming is not only keeping her warm but also increases the size of the fetus.
I calf out some commercials on grass in the late summer/fall as well as some in January/ February to spread out my workload and have 2 weaning dates for better cashflow. Same bulls, same genetic base of cows and the calves in the fall are 10 - 15 lbs lighter. Its not BS
As for bulls - lots out there to do what u are looking for. I think the other guys covered it well. Good line up on Bovine Elite webpage
I calf out some commercials on grass in the late summer/fall as well as some in January/ February to spread out my workload and have 2 weaning dates for better cashflow. Same bulls, same genetic base of cows and the calves in the fall are 10 - 15 lbs lighter. Its not BS
As for bulls - lots out there to do what u are looking for. I think the other guys covered it well. Good line up on Bovine Elite webpage
RyanChandler
Well-known member
trevorgreycattleco said:
I agree. My comparison was in the same environment though. Like with Matlock's having two breeds running right next to one another, and one breed has considerably lower bws.
If the calf is growing too excessively in the last trimester, the cow is consuming much more than what's needed for her maintenance regardless of what the temperature is. Calving in -40 is silliness. Might do some good to look around- see what time'a year the rest of the critters around ya are birthing. Just an objective suggestion.
XBAR,
When the temperature gets below 0 feed consumption goes up 1% per degree drop 0ver an increase in feed of maybe 10% due to being below freezing. This applies to all cattle from cows through to feedlot cattle. When it gets cold with a high wind chill cattle need energy just to keep warm though active use of their rumen and energy released in digestion. Feeder and feedlot cattle eat more but do not put on the average daily gain like they usually would. We also like to give higher energy feed (high quality hay or some grain) to keep them warm. remember it is the act of digesting their feed (rumen fermentation, metabolic conversion etc) that generates most of the heat to keep them warm. This higher plain of nutrition does promote prenatal growth but it is small price to pay for a healthy cow and calf along with a higher payday in the fall.
Something else to consider is animals in colder climates tend to grow to bigger mature sizes and part of the reason why birth weights in the northern plains is higher is due to this reason.
When the temperature gets below 0 feed consumption goes up 1% per degree drop 0ver an increase in feed of maybe 10% due to being below freezing. This applies to all cattle from cows through to feedlot cattle. When it gets cold with a high wind chill cattle need energy just to keep warm though active use of their rumen and energy released in digestion. Feeder and feedlot cattle eat more but do not put on the average daily gain like they usually would. We also like to give higher energy feed (high quality hay or some grain) to keep them warm. remember it is the act of digesting their feed (rumen fermentation, metabolic conversion etc) that generates most of the heat to keep them warm. This higher plain of nutrition does promote prenatal growth but it is small price to pay for a healthy cow and calf along with a higher payday in the fall.
Something else to consider is animals in colder climates tend to grow to bigger mature sizes and part of the reason why birth weights in the northern plains is higher is due to this reason.