Pelvic Measures and what it means. I want to learn as much as possible!

[DB]

I have heard many people lately talking about getting pelvic measures.  We are really kind of new to all of this.  We have raised calves in the past but usually either use older bulls or very safe bulls with the cows. 

I would like to start using the new wave of bulls and try to get some calves that have the show quality calf.  A little bigger butt and top would be nice.

If I would get pelvic measures on my cows would that tell me which cows I could use bigger structured bulls with or am I missing the point on pelvic measures?  How do you read the pelvic numbers?  Is there a specific age the cow should be before you get a measurement on? 

Can someone that uses this kind of give in a nutshell what it is used for and how helpful it is?  Is it worth doing?  Or do I just take a chance with the new bulls?  Any help would be appreciated.  This is for the spring breeding.

thanks again!!!!

 

[aj]

I used to pelvic measure my heifer calves at say a year old. I also pelvic measured a few yearling bulls. I think you find some outlyers this way. Maybe one with a freaky small measurement. I think the measure the height of the pelvic opening and then the width. I know the vets at Oakley check simply for abnormalities. Seems like they said some have a odd bump in the pelvic floor sometimes. These females usually have trouble. When I measured usually the big pelvic measure females usually had bigger calves and vice versa so I felt like the measurements were kinda over kill. Great question though.

 

[P-F]

I agree with AJ, I was taught in one of my beef production classes that if you start selecting the largest pelvic heifers every year you are inadvertently selecting for high BW, I would use it as a selection tool to get rid of any outliers 

 

[DB]

So there is nothing out there that you guys go on as far as breeding your cows to the bigger, stouter bulls.  Do you not worry about the birth weight on calves from cows that have had a couple calves already.  I know that you look at traits and what breeding would click with the cow or a shot that could be the ONE.  I guess maybe I have just been cautious with the way I am breeding.  There are a couple bulls I think would click with some of my cows like MY TURN, MONOPOLY, SUNSEEKER.  I guess you hear about stories of bad things and never hear the good calving stories.  So I guess my last question is::: Do you just breed and hope for the best????

Thanks again for the answers and for helping people out on this board.  I look forward to reading this each morning with coffee and then at night before bed if possible.

 

[ROMAX]

I used to pelvic measure my heifer calves at say a year old. I also pelvic measured a few yearling bulls. I think you find some outlyers this way. Maybe one with a freaky small measurement. I think the measure the height of the pelvic opening and then the width. I know the vets at Oakley check simply for abnormalities. Seems like they said some have a odd bump in the pelvic floor sometimes. These females usually have trouble. When I measured usually the big pelvic measure females usually had bigger calves and vice versa so I felt like the measurements were kinda over kill. Great question though.

how do you pelvic measure a bull?

 

[DL]

http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/pdfs/bch/02130.pdf

best used to cull heifers with a pelvis the size of a walnut

bulls are measured the same way as females - it's an equal opportunity measurement 

 

[aj]

I think they measure pelvic area rectumaly. Is that a word? I think yearling bulls measure smaller than their heifer peers(if I remember right).  I always wondered about these 20,000$ bulls that sell. Are they measured for pelvic area. Seems like to me this would be a trait to check on. DB.....I think that if you have a cow line with normal birth weights in their genetics you can possibly get by with a bigger bwt. bull on them. In my opinion....once you get some big bwt genes on the cow side is when you have the monster big bwt. calves and hard pulls and c-sections. And once you get the big birth weight genetics in your herd the big birth weights will pop up down the line...even a couple generations down the line. My understanding is that calving difficulty is the cost of doing business in the club calf world. They assume that they will occasionally have a monster baby calf. I know commercial guys don't like to pull say 3 out of 100 births where as club calf guys maybe pull 18% of calves. I don't know enviroments and breeding programs differ.jmo

 

[Jill]

aj 100% agree with what you're saying, we don't have a problem using Heat Wave until we have a cow that has a big birth weight on her side and then that is where we run into 110 pounders, most people try to pin btw on the bull and that sure isn't what we have found here.

 

[DB]

So from what I am getting from the posts unless I am way off base here and if I am please let me know.  The majority of the birth weight of the calf comes or correlates with that of the cow and not really the bull?????  Also birth weight can be effected on how the cow is feed in the third
tri-mester also is that correct???? 

During the third trimester do you change feeding patterns of the cow or do you keep everything the same??  Like I said I am kind of new here and trying to improve our calves each and every year.  That is why I am asking all these questions.  Thanks.

So when you guys that have answered some of my questions breed to some of the bigger, stouter made bulls do you end up pulling quite a few of the calves or only a few? 
Again thanks for all of your knowledge and information.  This topic is really helping me understand the whole picture.

 

[simtal]

  The majority of the birth weight of the calf comes or correlates with that of the cow and not really the bull?????  Also birth weight can be effected on how the cow is feed in the third
tri-mester also is that correct???? 

Birth weight like any trait is complex. In a broad sense, anything is half due to genetics and the other half to environment.  It's generally been perceived that birth weight is mostly affected by a sire because there is greater turnover. Most of the progress in genetic selection is due to a bull. Think of a typical herd that uses one bull and keeps back heifers. Sire and dam each contribute 50 percent to the genetic makeup of each calf, one-half of a dam's contribution to her calf comes from her sire and one-fourth comes from her dam's sire. Therefore, 87.5% of a calf's genetic material comes from the last three sires that were used in the herd.

 

[DL]

If you are interested in having live calves from heifers (1) pelvic measure the heifers to identify those that have really small pelvic areas (there are formulas for size based on age) and cull them. Using pelvic measurements for much more than identifying the walnut sized pelvis has not proved very useful for most operations. (2) use a proven high accuracy calving ease bull with good numbers for both CE (calving ease) and BW birth weight) - this basically limits you to using Red Angus or Angus because the other breeds or cross bred do not have sufficient numbers to have high accuracy. ie if you have a good calving ease score but an accuracy of 20% - you are taking your chances with the other 80%. However if you have a good CE with a >90 % accuracy you can rest much better. (3) calving ease depends on multiple things and not just BW - big shouldered big hipped smaller calves can cause many more problems than slick fronted bigger ones. BW is also affected by many things - the sire, the dam, the weather, the feed, the condition of the cow (BCS), the phase of the moon etc. Feed your cattle to maintain optimum condition (by your definition) - what and how much you feed depends on their size, the weather (cold means they need more feed, same with wind). Skimping on feed in the last trimester with the idea that you will have smaller babies doesn't work - basically the energy/protein goes preferentially to the calf - so you have the same size calf but your cow is in worse shape and may not have the energy to calve.  I basically don't change what I feed in the last trimester unless the weather says I should

 

[farwest]

I've pelvic measured several years, i don't get into formula because your 8 month old heifers may be underdeveloped because of feed compared to some one else and yours will make it back up on grass next summer or the reverse.  I use it more as a tool to weed out the drop outs, those that weren't in a certain range of measurements with the others, those who don't measure up to their peers..   just my 2 cents.

 

[P-F]

Dont forget that shape of the calf actually has more to do with calving trouble than actual BW, and that is why people pull alot of clubby breed calves it is because they are bred to be big hipped and assed and usually they also have big heads and shoulders, the clubby bulls are also extremely inconsistent, mainly because they were selected because they themselves are extreme in one trait or another



pretty much if you are breeding clubbies you just hold your breath and pray, b/c you know you will have to pull a couple

If you are useing purebreds look at both calveing ease EPD and BW when choosing bulls

 

[simtal]

(2) use a proven high accuracy calving ease bull with good numbers for both CE (calving ease) and BW birth weight) - this basically limits you to using Red Angus or Angus because the other breeds or cross bred do not have sufficient numbers to have high accuracy. ie if you have a good calving ease score but an accuracy of 20% - you are taking your chances with the other 80%. However if you have a good CE with a >90 % accuracy you can rest much better.

There are plenty of good calving AI simmental (probably other breeds too) sires with atleast 90% accuracy for calving ease, not just angus.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

What we were taught at school was that when doing Pelvic measurements you take the height and width get the square cm. then get a ratio against the actual weight of the calf.  That way you aren't selecting for larger framed animals also. 

 

[DL]

There are plenty of good calving AI simmental (probably other breeds too) sires with atleast 90% accuracy for calving ease, not just angus.

Probably true educate us on who.

Right on DS - <140 cm sq in a yearling heifer of any size is probably a red flag

 

[hart]

payback use to be rated well in the cross breed/culb area.  but comparing him to an angus might be another story altogether.  they tend to have an ok front if i remember rite but the hips can be another story.  plus watch the pha or is the th...

 

[DL]

payback use to be rated well in the cross breed/culb area.  but comparing him to an angus might be another story altogether.  they tend to have an ok front if i remember rite but the hips can be another story.  plus watch the pha or is the th...

nice truck - Payback is a PHA carrier

 

[lowann]

aj 100% agree with what you're saying, we don't have a problem using Heat Wave until we have a cow that has a big birth weight on her side and then that is where we run into 110 pounders, most people try to pin btw on the bull and that sure isn't what we have found here.

Same here. If the cow had a big birth weight, the HW calves are larger, otherwise we have never had to pull a HW calf.

 

[simtal]

There are plenty of good calving AI simmental (probably other breeds too) sires with atleast 90% accuracy for calving ease, not just angus.

Probably true educate us on who.

Right on DS - <140 cm sq in a yearling heifer of any size is probably a red flag

Dream on, goldmine, legacy,