Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[sue]

I was contacted today from the ASA about my goofball calf. Sounds like they have wheels a turning.

 

[Okotoks]

My thoughts and only that. I worked to raise a registered herd of Shorthorn cows by breeding to two of the hottest bulls at the time. Double stuff and Outrageous. I don't need to tell the oldtimers what happend. TH Ruined my work and I ended up either shipping or selling the balance of the herd.No one? knew what was causing the calves to have the defformities and I seen all of the affects of TH born calves. I checked the water, feed, pasture, supplements and everything else that we could have thought. Well eventually I was out of having a herd of cows and took a substantial beating on the cost of it all.
This looks to be like the same story. My buddy had a heifer calf born this year that had the same exact issue with her hind legs. Waaaaayyyyyy too much in common here. Waaaayyyy too much money can be lost by the identity of the issue quickly.
But I doubt that anyone really cares about the money that someone else looses just there own.
Just my opinion I am not looking at kicking the hornets nest!

It's true that money will be lost if a defect is found and the carrier animals identified. If it is a defect the sooner it's found though the less people will be hurt. Hopefully a test will be found so non carriers can be identified.We took a sizeable hit with TH and having the entire herd tested wasn't cheap for us or any of the others that went to the expense. At the end of the day I think Dr. Beever saved us from a fairly big disaster we had brewing! I wish the TH test had been found sooner so that your herd and hard work would have been saved.

 

[aj]

I was impressed with my contact of the ASA. They made the comment that if the rumoured bull had a problem there should be alot more reports coming in then what they are getting. Are reports not being reported or this this something regional? Is the defect something that is confused with basic structural problems? I think the ASA has a good staff. They are always going to have someone pissed off at them 50% of the time. I think word of mouth between breeders helps get things out. Hell kick some theories around between breeders. Send in samples.

 

[eskimo leggs]

I see these kids buying TH carriier cows and hoping to build a herd. Most of it is about the show end of this business and they want to have the popular bloodlines and expect to raise calves out of these cows. Some do make cows but the genetic traits carry on in the daughters. I hope none of them experience what I did but the writing is on the wall. The best show heifers we had never did make good cows and the kids will learn this in years to come if they stay in the cattle business long enough.

 

[aj]

cut the bs got me thinking about a theory due to the pedigree of my cow. I remember when everybody thought the MAINE ANJOU breed was responsible for the th deal. It was obvious. But it turned out to be false. The pha was tied to the Maines. Who knows. Everybody might be confusing two different defects on this damn deal.

 

[eskimo leggs]

Your right aj. I guess we don't know what we don't know. And we won't know until we know. Hopefully everything works out with the least amount of damage. My buddies cow was a angus and shorthorn cross heifer that had the calf with the bad wheels.

 

[DL]

I think there are several points to be made here -

1) Most breed associations have in their rules and regs something about how breeders need to report abnormal calves - most breeders don't report abnormal calves - for a variety of reasons. People don't want to believe it is genetic or don't think about it or they want to hide it and hope it goes away. They check, as eskimo legs did, feed, water, pasture, toxins, infection, etc etc but even now, after TH, PHA, AM, NH, EI, OS, CA, MA etc etc people don't think it can be genetic.. Many of these calves end up in the dead pile

2) Some people have had bad experiences with various breed associations - no call back, stalling, rudely treated, etc etc and therefore do not want to deal with the association.

3) Some people don't have registered animals and do not want to deal with the breed association

so - here are my thoughts - to identify a genetic abnormality there must be
- a diagnosis or description of the phenotype with pictures
- the pedigree of the calf
- SAMPLES AND YES SAMPLES (you cannot identify a mutation unless you have the DNA from affected animals)

So as a breeder
- You have an abnormal calf - you obtain a sample from the calf and its dam (and sire) - you take pictures - you provide a pedigree and you send it off to Dr B

-If you chose to deal with a breed association you send them pictures and pedigree and notify them that samples have been submitted

If as a breeder you have had abnormal calves and you do not have EARS in the freezer you are not doing your part

aj - one of the issues back then was that there were the twisty calves (TH) and the bloaty calves (PHA) and there were the twisty bloaties (TH and PHA), similar to the Angus with big head (NH) and twisty (AM) and twisty big head (AM and NH) calves. So sorting it all out without the 50 K SNP was tiresome and tedious and required breeders step up and provide enough samples to create an informative pedigree, ie the affected calf and lots of relatives  (as you recall some did and some didn't). Add to that that several of the Shorthorn bulls were double carriers (and aptly named) and that the Maine bull Stinger made his way into the Shorthorn herd book it was a confusing time for all 

 

[eskimo leggs]

DL, What is the protocol for dealing with possible genetic defects in the shorthorn breed? Are there any forms for submission of the information? Any directions for submitting the DNA? And then who does it get sent to? These things would make it easier to submit the information if it is not available.

Thanks for the time and effort that you have put into this situation.

 

[eskimo leggs]

Link for reporting possible defects:
http://www.shorthorn.org/registrations/genetictesting/gtreport_registrations.html

 

[aj]

I appreciate the work that DL,Beevers,Steffans and everybody does cause its a thankless dang job.

 

[DL]

DL, What is the protocol for dealing with possible genetic defects in the shorthorn breed? Are there any forms for submission of the information? Any directions for submitting the DNA? And then who does it get sent to? These things would make it easier to submit the information if it is not available.

Thanks for the time and effort that you have put into this situation.

eskimo - to submit samples for a gene hunt you would do the following

- affected calf - if dead, take a chunk of ear (1 x 1 inch is enough) stick it in a baggy, label it with a sharpie (calf number, sire & dam, farm name) - put in refrigerator (or if you can't send it right away you can freeze it)

-affected calf - if alive - blood sample in purple top tube (make sure you rock the tube back and forth as it has an anti coagulant and you don't want the blood to clot - the DNA is in the nucleus of the white cells) or you can get a tissue sample from the ear using a pig ear notcher

- dam of calf - purple top tube - label with dams name, breed and reg # if registered

- sire - if he is yours and has not been collected - purple top tube; if he is yours and has been collected send a straw of semen (it can thaw); if he is an AI sire most likely DNA will be on file;  label with name, breed and reg # if registered

-pictures of affected calf, description of abnormality by you or vet, and if calf was necropsied copy of necropsy report; short video if you think that would help

- pedigree of affected calf

-your name, address and phone number (and email)

- send samples on Monday or Tues (depending on where you live) - don't want them sitting somewhere over the weekend; if they can get to Illinois from your place ground in 2 days that is ok, otherwise send 2nd day; unless you are sure it will stay cold include an ice pack. If you have a small styrofoam container that is good - also make sure everything is capped tight, tubes padded, and put everything in a zip lock baggie

- samples for a gene hunt go to Dr Beever (address below)

Jonathan E. Beever, Ph.D.
Department of Animal Sciences
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
220 Edward R. Madigan Laboratory, MC-051
1201 West Gregory Drive
Urbana, IL 61801 USA

Some associations will pay for a complete necropsy on calves with abnormalities - generally for those abnormalities that are not confined to a limb (ie TH, PHA, AM, NH etc -   the really gross ugly ones) - Dr Steffen in Nebraska generally does them and calves are sent to him (sometimes frozen) - sometimes a closer vet pathologist will work with the association and Steffen to do the necropsy - I always suggest that people submit samples before the calf goes away for necropsy and that you keep a chunk of ear in your freezer - that way you know (a) the sample got the the gene gurus and (b) you always have a sample

Most breed associations have a genetic defect policy - ie how you report abnormal calves - generally it is not obvious when you go to their web site and often it is placed in some obscure place -

If you have a calf with an abnormality and you live near a U or state vet lab you can always take the calf for necropsy, in some instances you can arrange to ship it for necropsy

Samples from Canadian calves with abnormalities can be shipped with an import permit that Dr B has

let me know if I left anything out

ps thanks aj - you are right again

 

[NHR]

I remember the threads about TH on showsteers DL. Of course I found those threads after experiencing several TH births on my small operation. Lost a lot of money and lost some good cattle due to TH. The more we know, the better informed breeding matings we can make.

To cover something under the rug like happened with TH for so many years is detrimental to the breed. Just my opinion.

 

[DL]

I remember the threads about TH on showsteers DL. Of course I found those threads after experiencing several TH births on my small operation. Lost a lot of money and lost some good cattle due to TH. The more we know, the better informed breeding matings we can make.

To cover something under the rug like happened with TH for so many years is detrimental to the breed. Just my opinion.

Yeah NHR it is deja vu all over again - getting my karma stomped and getting nasty emails ("Do not reply to this email unless you have something useful to benefit the beef industry.") and hang up calls - the more we know the better but some still don't seem to get it -hopefully we have learned something from the past, the samples will roll in and the issue clarified before too many people get hurt

 

[knabe]

heres a spreadsheet of a pedigree

have fun

remove if you like jason. <cowboy>

 

[knabe]

you want me to do the other one aj?

ill leave out the first couple of names if you like.

 

[knabe]

looks like TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST had a fullsib in the PA DO lines.





CORONET MAX LEADER
TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST
NONPAREIL LADY 163D

CORONET MAX LEADER
NONPAREIL CORONITA 20TH
NONPAREIL LADY 163D

 

[Okotoks]

looks like TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST had a fullsib in the PA DO lines.

CORONET MAX LEADER
TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST
NONPAREIL LADY 163D

CORONET MAX LEADER
NONPAREIL CORONITA 20TH
NONPAREIL LADY 163D

The TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST line was pretty linebred in the 60's and 70's and I don't recall any defects coming up ???

 

[aj]

I don't care. Again the calf I had is still a little iffy on if its the same deformity since its a kinda mild deal. I don't start and innacurrate goose chase but I don't care.

 

[knabe]

The TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST line was pretty linebred in the 60's and 70's and I don't recall any defects coming up ???

wasnt bringing it up with regard to the defect, just that he had a full sib.

kinda like smithbuilt (and probably lots of other famous individuals) had a full sib (who is not in many pedigrees)

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

All youi folks who are being a ass to DL and many others on here need to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Call me. Lets chat. If your man enough. ASA needs to clean some house with a certain rep. That person doesnt have the breed in their best interest. They have a breeder and their wallet in their best interest. Tar and feather me. Eat my karma. At least I can call someone and say my name. And I dont send hateful emails and texts while being a snake in the grass. Im going to say this whole genetic defect deal will come to light after this years calf crop has been sold. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!