Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[Okotoks]

As for my being an ostrich…  Even though I have never used nor have a descendant of the bull in question I think that when there is very little science behind an accusation that is damaging to many people’s programs it is best to gather evidence rather than gleefully discuss it. Some so called “shorthorn breeders” are really just multipliers of cattle and like nothing better than an excuse to attack the breed. The information given about collecting data and being responsible I agree with. If it turns out the bull has a defect it will only be because responsible breeders sent in samples. Not because it was posted on steerplanet.

With your attitude jamiediamond we would still be dumping TH and PHA and NH and AM and FCS (CA) calves in the dead pile and calling them a "freaks of nature". In those instances many "responsible breeders" did not turn in samples or affected calves or their relatives - many of these "responsible breeders" were board members (imagine that). Many of the "responsible breeders" said they had never seen any abnormal calves. In the early days, before the 50K SNP chip was more available, an informed pedigree was used to identify the mutation and many more samples were needed. Early on showsteers was responsible for getting the word out about potential defects and how to submit samples - but apparently you weren't around then. Interestingly the owners of showsteers had a bull they were promoting that turned out to be a carrier of a lethal genetic defect - but they still allowed to free flow of information.  With the availability of the 50K SNP chip fewer samples were needed to identify the mutations for NH and AM and FCS and OS and fewer samples will be needed to determine if this abnormality is genetic.

The science is that the calves have been  genotyped and all but one of them share a segment of 2.7 Mb for which they are homozygous.  Thus, there is some indication that it may be genetic, but as I have mentioned more samples are needed to confirm the cause.

If breeders do not submit samples or do not bother to think this hind limb abnormality could be genetic, then your numbers are irrelevant as the number of abnormal calves is unknown. Ask the Angus about how difficult it was to identify the phenotype of fawn calf syndrome (AKA contractural arachnodactyly, CA), another non lethal recessive defect. When the defect is subtle (not a big bloated or twisted dead calf) and the calf is not born dead, it is more difficult to obtain samples because people tend to believe it was "just weak" or "squished in utero" etc - this is especially true of abnormalities like FCA and this hind limb abnormality that, if the calf lives or is not euthanized because it cannot walk,  seem to improve as the calf ages.

Providing information on what to look for and what samples to submit is a good thing - how can it be bad?? With calving season approaching now is the perfect time to alert breeders to be on the lookout for this hind limb deformity

This is deja vu all over again - people saying if we talk about this potential genetic defect it will be "bad for the breed" and propagation of genetic defects is good for the breed? How about people just do the right thing - be alert and submit samples - is that so hard to ask?

I have not mentioned the bulls name in any of my posts, here or on the hidden thread. I have not bashed the breed, I have done what I have done since 2006 with different breeds and different defects - provided information and asked for samples  - if asking Shorthorn breeders to look for this abnormality and submit samples is "attacking the breed" then the breed has bigger problems than this potential genetic defect

It is one thing to put the information out there but it is offensive how some posters on SP took the opportunity to gloat and attack breeders that had used the " suspect bull". One would hope the Association would provide some good photos of the calves with the abnormality so if there are other cases more genetic testing could be done. The breed doesn't have any more problems than other breeds we just seem to have an unusal amount of "breeders" that like to attack their chosen breed and fellow breeders on line. Quite a another problem but seems to get mixed up in almost every Shorthorn thread on here ??? Unfortunately it gives a very negative spin to most threads. (welcome)

 

[kfacres]

DL- what is your affiliation with Dr. Beever- I'm guessing that you're somehow involved, otherwise you wouldn't have this knowledge...

 

[jaimiediamond]

DL you yourself referenced numbers.  Is it only good to do so when it benefits your argument?  A counter opinion which also uses numbers makes the numbers irrelevant? Considering the large number of cattle registered sired by this bull it is impressive to me that less than 10 would have been reported especially as there has been line breeding to this sire for a number of years.  So does this mean that breeders are dishonest? Another point you never  answered from earlier in the thread was there any common environmental factors? We all know that environment plays a role in development.

As for my attitude which has always been responsible cattle  producers should submit data on abnormal situations its even on our website how we deal with THC in our program. I have been brought up to be honest.    A personal attack because I stood up and said something is uncalled for especially since you are just trying to discredit my opinion with that attack. Your an educated woman you knew the definitions of hearsay and rumours yet you didn't like when I was able to post them. Moreover read my previous posts and you will see I am a advocate for reporting and eliminating defects.  What you obviously don't like is that I also believe that if there is nothing solid to back an accusation on then don't post it publicly.  Interesting point is you didn't bring up the potential defect until the other thread was started.  This indirectly had you telling everyone who the bull was.

Again I will re post what to me was the most important part of my previous reply since you obviously didn't like the definition of hearsay or rumour.  
Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

What you have provided DL is a vague description of a possible non lethal genetic defect.  


Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. What you have provided DL is a vague description of a possible non lethal genetic defect.
Genetic Defects could be anything from a fatal recessive to a calf that is tight behind the shoulder.  The calf that is tight behind the shoulder has an undesirable trait that most people would cull out.

A rumour is often viewed as "an unverified account or explanation of events circulating from person to person and pertaining to an object, event, or issue in public concern".  In this case a Shorthorn bull. Rumour involves some kind of a statement whose veracity is not quickly or ever confirmed.

 

[aj]

I think what jammie is trying to say is that we should keep the informatiion secret. Only let the people at the top know about. Personal friends of ceo's and field reps. Then the top end of the food chain will do what is best and the guy with 2 cows will never know about this stuff.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I think what jammie is trying to say is that we should keep the informatiion secret. Only let the people at the top know about. Personal friends of ceo's and field reps. Then the top end of the food chain will do what is best and the guy with 2 cows will never know about this stuff.

Aww JA you always have a way of twisting things around... You have a calf with an adnormal lower leg if you were responsible you would have sent that information in without DL's thread. 

 

[kfacres]

I think what jammie is trying to say is that we should keep the informatiion secret. Only let the people at the top know about. Personal friends of ceo's and field reps. Then the top end of the food chain will do what is best and the guy with 2 cows will never know about this stuff.

Aww JA you always have a way of twisting things around... You have a calf with an adnormal lower leg if you were responsible you would have sent that information in without DL's thread.  

nope, not unless someone was to get on here and starting talking about a particular bull- which might carry a defect-- and then AJ, would say danm, I got a calf that goes back to that bull... and it has some goofy leg-- which could be that defect..

 

[jaimiediamond]

Jody do you do exactly as your parents say and only have their opinions? Okotoks is not so lucky poor man is surrounded by opinionated women.

 

[OKshorthorn]

I'll start this with saying I don't have a dog in the fight considering the back and forth between a few posters on here. I have never met anyone on steerplanet to my knowledge. We breed shorthorns, it's not our primary source of income, we just love the cattle. We have also used the bull in question, and have several embryos from him in the tank. We have had 2 TH calves, the first was prior to us knowing anything about it, the second was a mistake where we were under the impression the bull was TH free. Since then we worked towards a TH and PHA free herd. The prospect of this new genetic defect being in my herd concerns me.

All that being said...I'm putting one of those embryos in next week. The problem I have with this thread is the same problem I see with some of the other forums I frequent. Some people just can not take criticism. We all struggle with it, some handle it better than others. I also find myself wondering why if this "genetic defect" has been in an ongoing research stage with less than 10 samples currently, and the point of this thread was to truly educate breeders to look for a similar defect and report such things to the proper people, then why is it just now being put on here. Have these samples just been received in the past 2 weeks?

We are all cattle people. Most of us seem to enjoy what we do, even if we are only able to do it on the weekends and in the dark after work. For the life of me I can not understand why anyone would get enjoyment out of others misery. This is obviously a touchy subject, many of us are connected to this potential defect very closely and it will indeed effect the lives of people, whether it be directly or indirectly. If one person doesn't buy a heifer calf that is sired by this bull simply because they read this or the other thread on the subject, then that is a travesty.

I wish more people on here would post things of this nature as if it directly effected them personally.

 

[frostback]

This could have been handled way better. A plea should have been put out WITHOUT a bulls name. Photos of what to look for. Then a true unbiased sampling could have been obtained. Has anyone contacted the ASA and asked about this?

 

[OKshorthorn]

AJ, you posted this in a different thread. I think you are spot on with it. I hope you don't mind me copying it to this one.

"in some ways I think they have to procede with caution on things. There have been examples where a bull was to have sired a calf and it was actually sired by a neighbors bull. Or a cow might show a sire in her pedigree that was wrong in some kind of goof up. Two calves switched by two cow that laid down and calved by each other. In the th and pha deal the two defects were confused with each other. Nutritional defiencent cies for an area and what not. I think they like to get large numbers and a pattern down before anything is decided for sure. It is dang frustrating though with breeding season coming on .  I watched the th deal play out and it took time. That proccess was amazing to me."

For many of the reasons that you said there...I think that there being less than 10 cases, with the thousands or progeny this particular bull has out there, it is a little premature to make any accusations.

 

[jaimiediamond]

This could have been handled way better. A plea should have been put out WITHOUT a bulls name. Photos of what to look for. Then a true unbiased sampling could have been obtained. Has anyone contacted the ASA and asked about this?

Jason called ASA before removing the original topic

*************UPDATED*************

Statement from ASA regarding the rumor.

"The American Shorthorn Association (ASA) takes allegations of genetic defects or birth abnormalities very seriously, working with industry experts to research, diagnose, and develop testing procedures if deemed necessary. To our knowledge, there has never been a case of "Mulefoot" reported to the ASA, nor are there any known carriers in the ASA herd book. We strongly urge that accusations of genetic defects be based on science, not rumor. Several cases of anomalies at birth have been reported to the ASA in recent years, later to be diagnosed as nutritional deficiencies or other developmental problems. Breeders are reminded that countless things can go wrong in the fetal development process due to nutrition, environment, genetics, or any combination thereof. The ASA asks that all breeders report any anomalies at birth directly to the ASA and promises to diligently research and report on any suspect cases it receives in a timely manner."

 

[aj]

I think the deal gets to be about the power of the web. It seems a little synical for jamie wanting to squash discussions about defects. The discussions were great when she listed 200 photos of their herds cattle and 15 of their herdsires for the entire world to see. As I undertood things there was nothing vague about the afflicted calves. What is vague is how things fit together. What is really vague about the situation if the breeders across the nation don't even have the ability to look for abnormalities cause they don't know what to look for. I don't like defects but I wanna know about them. I think it would be wise for people to linebreed cattle and get a hold on things before they come up with next great one and sell thgem for 40,000 in some highly progagandized sale. If you want info banned ban the internet in Canada. Or throw people out of the association that report defects. Or sue somebody....that tends to ban free speech. The web is the web. They didn't have it back in the 1950's when the dwarfism defect damn near killed the Herford breed. Don't attack DL. Thats crazy. Thats arragant. Have jason ban this thread if you want to shut people up.

 

[frostback]

You read or hear what you want, yet again. She is not for bannng the talk she just wants science to back up the talk before someones bull get run into the dirt and hurts their program.

 

[aj]

What bull? This talk is mostly hypothetical?

 

[frostback]

What bull? This talk is mostly hypothetical?

What is the pedigree of your calf by the way? Have you contacted all your customers on a possibly problem in your breeding program?

 

[Okotoks]

What bull? This talk is mostly hypothetical?

Speaking of bull, now that is getting a little deep!

 

[aj]

I will send you a pm on the sire of this calf. He has a rear foot kinda goofy. The mother of this calf has some shorthorn club calf trash in her pedigree. I assumed the calf was just unsound for these reasons. However the one guy in the post that was taken down generated my concern in the issue. This calfs rear foot is twice as big as the other ankle. It is curved inward like DL's photo and is larger on the outside of the foot. |It may not be genetic defect. The calf is 10 months old and is currently being run on cornstalks. I am going to to get him in and pull blood on him and send it to Beaver. I am going to fatten out the calf and eat him. He maynot have a genetic defect. He might have a defect. It may be just a structural problem. Beaver will have the stuff. End of story. If the abnormal calves do turn out to be defects it will be confusing to everybody cause they do resemble structural problems. It is not my response abilityto save the hurt of someones feelings. It is not my responsibilty to protect someones financial interest. I am pulling blood and sending it in and we will let Beevers figure it out. He ended up getting beat to death on this board back during the th and pha deal. I'm sure he get the hell beat out of him on this deal. If no more abnormalties show up then the matter will be dropped. If you go into the seedstock business you under take risks. Rumours are part of the equation. All I want to know is outcome of the deal. I don't know who reported the abnormalties pictured. But it looks like to me that a pattern was developing that needs check out.

 

[Okotoks]

I will send you a pm on the sire of this calf. He has a rear foot kinda goofy. The mother of this calf has some shorthorn club calf trash in her pedigree. I assumed the calf was just unsound for these reasons. However the one guy in the post that was taken down generated my concern in the issue. This calfs rear foot is twice as big as the other ankle. It is curved inward like DL's photo and is larger on the outside of the foot. |It may not be genetic defect. The calf is 10 months old and is currently being run on cornstalks. I am going to to get him in and pull blood on him and send it to Beaver. I am going to fatten out the calf and eat him. He maynot have a genetic defect. He might have a defect. It may be just a structural problem. Beaver will have the stuff. End of story. If the abnormal calves do turn out to be defects it will be confusing to everybody cause they do resemble structural problems. It is not my response abilityto save the hurt of someones feelings. It is not my responsibilty to protect someones financial interest. I am pulling blood and sending it in and we will let Beevers figure it out. He ended up getting beat to death on this board back during the th and pha deal. I'm sure he get the hell beat out of him on this deal. If no more abnormalties show up then the matter will be dropped. If you go into the seedstock business you under take risks. Rumours are part of the equation. All I want to know is outcome of the deal. I don't know who reported the abnormalties pictured. But it looks like to me that a pattern was developing that needs check out.

I pretty much agree with this. Testing is the only way to find out ))

 

[jaimiediamond]

(lol) I have to agree I will add that there are two posts that I quite agree with ja.  Amazingly they were both logical and informative.  Too bad you don't always post like this aj I really enjoy them when you take the time to answer carefully and not use tongue and cheek. 

The first one that Redwine reposted "in some ways I think they have to procede with caution on things. There have been examples where a bull was to have sired a calf and it was actually sired by a neighbors bull. Or a cow might show a sire in her pedigree that was wrong in some kind of goof up. Two calves switched by two cow that laid down and calved by each other. In the th and pha deal the two defects were confused with each other. Nutritional defiencent cies for an area and what not. I think they like to get large numbers and a pattern down before anything is decided for sure. It is dang frustrating though with breeding season coming on .  I watched the th deal play out and it took time. That proccess was amazing to me."

and ja's most recent post
"I will send you a pm on the sire of this calf. He has a rear foot kinda goofy. The mother of this calf has some shorthorn club calf trash in her pedigree. I assumed the calf was just unsound for these reasons. However the one guy in the post that was taken down generated my concern in the issue. This calfs rear foot is twice as big as the other ankle. It is curved inward like DL's photo and is larger on the outside of the foot. |It may not be genetic defect. The calf is 10 months old and is currently being run on cornstalks. I am going to to get him in and pull blood on him and send it to Beaver. I am going to fatten out the calf and eat him. He maynot have a genetic defect. He might have a defect. It may be just a structural problem. Beaver will have the stuff. End of story. If the abnormal calves do turn out to be defects it will be confusing to everybody cause they do resemble structural problems. It is not my response abilityto save the hurt of someones feelings. It is not my responsibilty to protect someones financial interest. I am pulling blood and sending it in and we will let Beevers figure it out. He ended up getting beat to death on this board back during the th and pha deal. I'm sure he get the hell beat out of him on this deal. If no more abnormalties show up then the matter will be dropped. If you go into the seedstock business you under take risks. Rumours are part of the equation. All I want to know is outcome of the deal. I don't know who reported the abnormalties pictured. But it looks like to me that a pattern was developing that needs check out."

 

[aj]

<beer>