Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[aj]

Is it underneath or on the face of the hoof? Interesting.

 

[OKshorthorn]

Its underneath. Like where the ball of your foot would be. Identical on both sides.

 

[DL]

See, this is why I like the ASA (Simmental). I get a newsletter in my email every Friday, and for the last few months it has had this disclaimer:

"It's that time of year again when abnormal calves will be born in our members' herds. ASA has a confidential, free reporting service for all members. If you have an abnormal calf, please call Jerry, Wade, or Marilyn immediately (well, at least during the work day!). We will work with each member to get a diagnosis. Regardless, if the calf is alive or dead, call us before any tissue degradation occurs. We usually ask for photos or video. If any laboratory work is needed, ASA pays all expenses."

I think that about explains how to handle it if you get an abnormal calf. Plain and simple...  (pop)

Hey DL, you might be working for the wrong breed 

Yeah firesweep I always liked the approach the ASA (Simmie) took - straight forward, to the point, inform the members.

BTW - I don't work for the ASA (thank goodness  : : ;D - if I did they would do things differently  : 8) ;D ;D ) but  when it comes to genetic defects I am pretty much breed blind - we need samples and information to identify the mutation

 

[sue]

oh geesh sue...now you got me thinking more...you'd have to mail it overnight or priority mail, wouldnt ya?  i mean, if its frozen, you sure wouldnt want it thawed out by the time it got there!     it wouldnt be any good anymore would it?  and that'd be a real waste of money! 

ok, im done...its too pretty outside to be on this computer!  gonna go wash some heifers!!!

OK as someone who has mailed in lots of samples from other peoples cows (at my expense) because it seemed like the right thing to do I am having a bit of a problem with the notion that the cost of shipment would keep people from submitting samples -

-send it ups
-send it Monday
-put a cold pack in
-if it can get to U of I by Wed or Thurs send it ground (about 10 bucks)
-if it can't get there by wed or Thurs send it 2nd or 3rd day
-likely cheaper than 2 cans of spray paint

for specific instructions

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=35626.0

DL - your cost estimate is for a ear.... we were trying to figure the cost of shipping "whole dead calf" ? 
A ear should go for $8.45 flat rate.  I think were on the same page here in regards to submitting a sample and finding a marker?
Knabe - you're funny  . "the cost of mating a carrier to a carrier"

 

[DL]

DL - your cost estimate is for a ear.... we were trying to figure the cost of shipping "whole dead calf" ? 
A ear should go for $8.45 flat rate.  I think were on the same page here in regards to submitting a sample and finding a marker?

woops my bad eh? Any association that wants a necropsy on a dead calf should pay for sending that calf to the appropriate place - Dave Steffen in Nebraska is generally where most associations want potential genetic  defects sent BUT if you are near a U or state lab accommodations can easily be made to have the necropsy done at a close place without sending the calf (which one has to admit would be and is a pain). U Penn used to offer a service where they would have the calf shipped and necropsy it for a reasonable price - don't know if they still do that or not. But with appropriate communication the calf could be necropsied locally if available.

To date I do not think any of these calves with distal hind limbs have had a complete necropsy and while it might be nice the fact that some can survive for some period of time suggests that necropsy is not crucial in the pathologic determination of the disorder. I would be much more interested in the legs (hock down) in these calves if euthanized because of inability to walk than a complete necropsy

 

[QMC]

I just saw a commercial that says if you have a calf with a birth defect, and the cow took ZOLOFT, you may be entitled to a cash settlement.

sorry I didn't catch the phone #.

 

[DL]

I just saw a commercial that says if you have a calf with a birth defect, and the cow took ZOLOFT, you may be entitled to a cash settlement.

sorry I didn't catch the phone #.

that's funny and you can use your cash settlement to pay the lawyer who will explain to the FDA why you are involved in the illegal drugging of bovines : : hope ya didn't let them drive 

 

[sue]

Your right aj. I guess we don't know what we don't know. And we won't know until we know. Hopefully everything works out with the least amount of damage. My buddies cow was a angus and shorthorn cross heifer that had the calf with the bad wheels.

If this cross is true ... then this deal is wide open? I realize the top of this thread "says potential defect in shorthorn" .... but alot of samples need to roll in?  It's nice to see shorthorn  stepped up and posted something on web page , not sure it's the most cost effective way to submit a sample ... but it's a effort so thanks.
DL - History speaks for itself ... you rock .

 

[aj]

This is antedotal evidence but I think the shorthorn part of the crossbred cow had improver in her pedigree......along with other lines. Its fairly easy to get to Improver and deer park leader in alot of pedigrees. I doubt Dividend himself had any problems cause he was used really heavily.

 

[DL]

Your right aj. I guess we don't know what we don't know. And we won't know until we know. Hopefully everything works out with the least amount of damage. My buddies cow was a angus and shorthorn cross heifer that had the calf with the bad wheels.

If this cross is true ... then this deal is wide open? I realize the top of this thread "says potential defect in shorthorn" .... but alot of samples need to roll in?   It's nice to see shorthorn  stepped up and posted something on web page , not sure it's the most cost effective way to submit a sample ... but it's a effort so thanks.
DL - History speaks for itself ... you rock .

thanks sue - sometimes people (and associations) step up because it is the right thing to do, sometimes they step up because of peer or outside pressure - I prefer they do it because it is the right thing to do - but ya know that is pretty rare

IMHO - all these calves are sired by Shorthorn bulls - so it is clearly a Shorthorn problem (potential genetic problem) - - whether it is a problem for other breed should be irrelevant to the ASA - Shorthorn has a problem and they should deal with it - they shouldn't "feel better" because others might have the problem - that is pretty much kindergarten eh?

With all the cross breeding and composite registry who knows what some of these cows are - time will tell but the bottom line is SEND SAMPLES

PS  ask trevor if he enjoyed aj's present of Kool Aide  LMAO

 

[aj]

I was googling around on the scur condition in cattle. The articles I read were interesting. The scurs and the polled factor are on different genes? BUT the Homozygous condition overrides the scurs factor even if the scur deal is homozygous? Epistatic. The sur deal works different in bos indicus then bos taurus....so what about Santi Gertrudis? Then the sex of the individual affects how scurs are developed? Soooo in theory.....couldn't you have an Angus with scur genetics but they pheotype smooth polled because the Homozygosity of the polled factor overrides the scured gene? This not allowing for any horned genetic brought to the angus from chi or Holstein blood. Looks like any breed like santi gertudis or beefmaster orBrangus would have all kinds of varients of the scured deal. If the distal limb deal is genetic it seems it is confusing cause its phenotype variation is so variable? geeeez my head hurts. ;D

 

[DL]

I was googling around on the scur condition in cattle. The articles I read were interesting. The scurs and the polled factor are on different genes? BUT the Homozygous condition overrides the scurs factor even if the scur deal is homozygous? Epistatic. The sur deal works different in bos indicus then bos taurus....so what about Santi Gertrudis? Then the sex of the individual affects how scurs are developed? Soooo in theory.....couldn't you have an Angus with scur genetics but they pheotype smooth polled because the Homozygosity of the polled factor overrides the scured gene? This not allowing for any horned genetic brought to the angus from chi or Holstein blood. Looks like any breed like santi gertudis or beefmaster orBrangus would have all kinds of varients of the scured deal. If the distal limb deal is genetic it seems it is confusing cause its phenotype variation is so variable? geeeez my head hurts. ;D

me too!

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I dont drink kool aid. Maybe a big ol glass of chocolate milk but never kool aid. Mostly I sip on a beer  <beer> I still dont get it

 

[vcsf]

I was googling around on the scur condition in cattle. The articles I read were interesting. The scurs and the polled factor are on different genes? BUT the Homozygous condition overrides the scurs factor even if the scur deal is homozygous? Epistatic. The sur deal works different in bos indicus then bos taurus....so what about Santi Gertrudis? Then the sex of the individual affects how scurs are developed? Soooo in theory.....couldn't you have an Angus with scur genetics but they pheotype smooth polled because the Homozygosity of the polled factor overrides the scured gene? This not allowing for any horned genetic brought to the angus from chi or Holstein blood. Looks like any breed like santi gertudis or beefmaster orBrangus would have all kinds of varients of the scured deal. If the distal limb deal is genetic it seems it is confusing cause its phenotype variation is so variable? geeeez my head hurts. ;D

aj the scur thing is interesting but there seems to be exceptions to the rules.  I have a friend who had a Simmental bull with large scurs but the bull did prove to be homozygous polled.  Some other friends bought a smoth polled Charolais bull out of a scurred cow.  Given the sex linked nature of the scur gene this Charolais bull, in theory,  should have proven to be homozygous polled, however, this was not the case and he turned out to be heterozygous.  It should be noted that in both these cases it is possible that there could be some bos indicus blood several generations back which could influence things.

 

[linnettejane]

a few years ago i had a smooth polled cow bred to a scurred bull that had a horned heifer calf...how does that happen?  and yes she was horned, a vet confirmed this when he removed them!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

a few years ago i had a smooth polled cow bred to a scurred bull that had a horned heifer calf...how does that happen?  and yes she was horned, a vet confirmed this when he removed them!

we had 2 of those this year

 

[aj]

A heterozygous polled times a heterozygous polled will throw a horned calf 25% of the time. I like vodka in my cool aid.

 

[kfacres]

so today, while painting gates and hay feeders lime green and hot purple...

I came to the conclusion...

this bull who's getting more and more obvious to be a carrier of this newly found genetic defect (DS) I think it was...  is about to hit a spurt in semen sales.. I mean seriously, the shorthorn people have used the piss out of him for the last couple of years-- and now that this potential newly found genetic defect is about to surface... I'm sure that the owners should reap rewards when selling to the club calf people... Seems to me this defect could be associated with (extra) bone and/ or body as the effected leg is what double the size of the normal one?  Seems to me, they'll want to get that defect into their cowherd as quickly as possible, as it might be the KEY to raising the next (or their first) great one...

I still have that theory on where it's coming from...

 

[DL]

A heterozygous polled times a heterozygous polled will throw a horned calf 25% of the time. I like vodka in my cool aid.

Right you are roger rabbit  ;D

This is a great web site for the horned /polled /scurred discussion
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/polled.html

Scurs are small horn-like growths on the frontal bone in the same locations are horns would grow. Scurs are referred to a "wiggle horns" in German and indeed, most are moveable and are not attached firmly to the skull. Scurs typically do not appear until about 4 months of age and stop growing at a few inches if left on. Some scurs, often called "scab scurs" as never much bigger than a thumbnail. Horn growth would make it impossible for scurs to develop at the same spot but horned animals can carry the gene for scurs.

Traditionally the scurred trait has been reported as sex-influenced. Male cattle need only one allele for scurs to exhibit the trait, whereas females need two alleles. Long and Gregory detailed the inheritance very well back in 1978. They suggested that homozygous polled masks scurs unless homozygous for scurs. Asai (2001) found evidence to prove this at the DNA level. Her data also suggest homozygous polled masks even homozygous scurs - i.e. is epistatic. See the table on a linked page for a handy guide to the inheritance of polled and scurred.

Asai's studies proved that the gene for scurs is not on cattle chromosome 1, but on cattle chromosome 19. Therefore, as long believed, this is an entirely separate gene.
Asai, M, T. G. Berryere, Schmutz, S. M. 2004. The scurs locus in cattle maps to bovine chromosome 19. Animal Genetics 35:34-39
Asai, M, Schmutz, S. M. August 12, 2002. Interaction of the scurred loci with the polled/horned loci and the influence of sex. International Society of Animal Genetics, Goettingen, Germany.
Asai, M 2001. Mapping and characterization of the scurred phenotype in Bos taurus breeds. M.Sc. Thesis, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Asai, M and S. M Schmutz. 2000. Studies in the inheritance of scurs in Bos taurus breeds. poster at the International Society of Animal Genetics meeting, Minneapolis, MN.
Long, C. R. and K. E. Gregory. 1978. Inheritance of the horned, scurred, and polled condition in cattle. J. Heredity. 69:395-400.

 

[linnettejane]

well that heifer, that had the horns, out of the polled cow, scurred bull, they didnt pop out and start growing til she was about 9 months old, around the time i started feeding her the "good stuff", lol....wonder if there is any correlation there? 

her sister  (same cow, but different bull that was polled), did the exact same thing...thought she was polled, and had to have her dehorned @14 months of age....strange...