Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[knabe]

You don't use carriers.  Th test has been out a while. Th is stopping you from displacing people who use th and making inroads on displacing angus? If anything, people like you should be excelling. How do you differentiate the use of th and overcoming the niche breed status of anything non-angus?


If anything, people like you should be rising to the top. The marketplace for th cattle has a shrinking market with increased costs, not a good long term strategy. You are in a good spot. Each year, fewer people are in ag and average incomes keep going down.

 

[Doc]

Looking back, I wish the associations had taken a harder line on this and disallowed the registration of all carrier sires. Trusting breeders and industry leaders to manage this issue on their own has failed. How has it failed, or better yet how have they failed us?
We are now in a situation where taking aggressive action on TH could generate legal action against the associations. Breeders using the TH gene to compete more effectively in the sale/show rings could make a case of economic loss.
The real concern is that the shorthorn breed is starting to look like a genetic minefield for potential investors.How are Shorties any worse than a lot of the other breeds out there? I'm not as worried about investors as I am breeders. Which I think smart breeders understand these situations.
The only reasonable way forward is to make a rule that all sires must be non carriers from all known defects as of January 1st 2016. No papers otherwise. What's going to happen when another defect comes along? Ban them also? I take it from your statements that you don't use any "show ring genetics", no Irish with Improver or any JPJ genetics ? The TH and PHA bulls I can live with or without for the most part, but there is too many good bulls that are DSC for me to not use them.
This would then make any existing TH carrier females even more valuable. They would be collectors items for those who believe they need the gene to compete.
The problem as it stands today isn't with the associations or their boards. It's with a key group of breeders who won't agree and believe they will be impacted negatively.
That's my view of it.Agree on what? A bunch of them will be impacted negatively. I don't know about you , but I'm not into voluntarily taking a pay cut.

 

[MDitmars]

Here is my stance on the issue. We have 1000s of bulls that are carriers of the various traits. The more you use those bulls in your herd the more you have to test. Individually in my opinion if we allowed registration of carriers for another few years and cut off all registration of carriers or H the economic impact would be lessened with breeders understanding for the good of the breed you have to stop using carriers.

Understand that show animals are in a completely different bracket when we sold show steers and heifers we did not register a single one. We stayed mostly with in the 4h animal arena. Guessing as you move to bigger shows people like to show off the pedigree. Individual would have to work on breeding out the carrier status to continue using the similar type bulls which is completely doable.

There are still great Genetics in the Carriers that can be used if used properly.

 

[aj]

If you look at history..........if you look at say the Herfords........dwarfism.......started mostly by St. Lois Lad.......born in what 1899 or something. Herfords became very popular.....dwarfism spread all around the country. Then bang.....two popular lines of Herfords crossed up and you had dwarfs the country wide. This kinda doomed the breed in the 1950's and the Herfords lost alot of market share.    Now.......take the Shorthorn breed......no market share......three defects show up. The breed didn't really get knocked to its knees because in reality......as far as market share is concerned.....they weren't standing up. So in the Shorthorn deal.......the defects didn't kill the popularity in the same way it affected the Herford breed in 1960 or whenever.

 

[aj]

The Shorthorn breed is made up mainly of show ring stuff. The Beef industry doesn't know they exist. They are a bunch of country club cattle breeders who sell show heifers for the hugely popular junior heifer show and to each other. So in reality.......having defects in a zoo strictly show ring type Shorthorn breed............may not be a disaster. As far as the beef industry is concerned the Shorthorns are almost like a different species......like an alpaca anyway. There will be a few breeders who make inways into the beef industry. Will the National Cattlemans Assn or the Beef Improvement Federation or whatever take the breed seriously......no. It is what it is. 100 years from now.....who knows how the breed market share will be broken down.

 

[Doc]

AJ, Then why do you raise Shorthorns? If you are supposed to be such an astute cattleman, I would think according to what you just posted you wouldn't let any Shorthorns in the same county that you live in, let alone on your place.

 

[aj]

I've had Shorthorns since 1973. I love their disposition. I think Red is a better color than black. They feed well. They have good pelvic measurements. I am a realist. How do they plug into todays beef industry? Now that the defects are accepted as ok........I truly do not know of one herd that puts their herd under strict enviromental pressure. Where do you go for some common sense genetic defect free cattle? Keith Lauer and Marty are the only two that I know of.

 

[oakview]

Defects are accepted as OK?  I hope you mean the use of carrier animals by some to reach a goal is OK, not the actual defects.  Every breeder puts their herd under environmental pressure.  If the cattle don't perform in the situation they're in, they're gone.  The environment may change from herd to herd, but whehter you're talking about Cates or Haumont, I'd wager that if the cattle don't do what they want them to, in their environment, they won't stick around long.  Even the most lenient show herd doesn't keep them as pets.  I'm not exactly sure what you mean by strict envirnmental pressure.  It infers that the cattle are turned out in a survival of the fittest atmosphere and those that come in the corral in the fall are the winners.  Around here, that's poor management.  Like most everyone I know, we use the resources we have available to the best of our ability and the cattle that perform for us are either maintained for our own herd or sold to other breeders.  You also might want to check on the sources listed of "genetic defect" free cattle.  NOBODY'S totally immune!

 

[RyanChandler]

I truly do not know of one herd that puts their herd under strict enviromental pressure. Where do you go for some common sense genetic defect free cattle? Keith Lauer and Marty are the only two that I know of.

Why do you want "strict" pressure?  I think it's more important to apply the appropriate amount of pressure.  Applying more pressure than your environment requires is a waste. 

There's countless purebred operations around the country that fall under your description--

 

[RyanChandler]

*Applying more pressure than your environment NATURALLY requires is a waste. 

 

[aj]

Marty is loaded with ds......no secret. I guess my hope was jpj. A bull that had a birth weight under 100 pounds......and had some ole school easy keeping genetics to him. Then HE was a ds carrier. I have 2 grandsons I'm playing around with that are ds free. The Shorthorn breed as a whole......as an assc. doesn't care about propagating genetic defects. The show ring people don't care. Its not that it is right or wrong it is just a big social club. Thats how I see it. No one would care if alpacas get a weird genetic defect. It's not going to affect the beef industry.The beef industry won't care if Shorthorns are loaded with defects cause it won't affect them.

 

[oakview]

The last time I checked the Angus breed was loaded with more genetic defects than Shorthorns ever thought about.  That must be one HUGE social club, 'cause they sure still sell 'em.  I talked to the Executive Secretary when the TH thing first hit.  I can tell you he cared.  There's more to it than just kicking them out because you don't like it.  There are many, many considerations.  Proof and liability would be two of them.  I think I've mentioned this numerous times before.  If you don't like cattle with defect genes, then don't use them!  What difference does it make to you what other people do?  If somebody uses a carrier bull, then it must be due to the fact that there is a demand for the end product. 

 

[knabe]

We have to remember, it's more important to some people that they be allowed to tell others what to do and if they can't that they go on and on how evil people are and that absolutism should be applied arbitrarily as long as they aren't affect until the are.

 

[caledon101]

Ensuring the accuracy of pedigrees and protecting the integrity of the breed is, or should be, the prime objective of all national breed associations. There's more to running a breed association than collecting fees to pay salaries and office expenses. At least I sure hope so.

Every breed needs new members and new investors to grow and thrive. As mentioned, I certainly don't support the knee jerk reaction of some who think any and all carriers should be banned. But genetic defects are just that.....defects. Affected sires should be non eligible for registration. This would, over time, make identified genetic defect issues such as TH and PHA irrelevant.
Leadership means doing the right thing; not just the popular thing. If shorthorn breeders sincerely care about their breed then they will want to do everything within reason to eradicate genetic defects.
That's my view.

 

[librarian]

There is a big end market for heroin also, and legalizing the sale of  heroin seems no different , in principle, from legitimizing the dealing of lethal genetic defects. The cost is to the user, not the dealer. Just say no if you believe its wrong and let the other guy make his own decisions. People like myself are put in the position of joining an Association of either dealers or users if they want to register well bred Shorthorn livestock.  I ride for the Shorthorn brand, but I'm not giving money to support other peoples habit.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Ok....same bláblábla again.....
People use the genetics that wants to use....if it is carrier or not, only the time will answer it through the customers that will again buy bulls from they on next year.
If people that today appology carriers as only a "new character" that need to be select, on next years keep saling bulls, ok anti-carriers will to be wrong....if not, all we can to be wrong or not!
Let people bred what want right, if your (mine) opinion is against this, simple...will not buy this kind genetics!
I think that Shorthorn yet have enough genetic variability to become healthy.
Personal criteria always go ahead the breeds.
Aberden Angus have ots of defects..OK, agree, but when Shorthorn show the world power that Aberdeenians show....Shorthorn wil to be able to have your proper wagon defects.....on other case, they will to be a sick breed without importance.

 

[RyanChandler]

There is a big end market for heroin also, and legalizing the sale of  heroin seems no different , in principle, from legitimizing the dealing of lethal genetic defects. The cost is to the user, not the dealer. Just say no if you believe its wrong and let the other guy make his own decisions. People like myself are put in the position of joining an Association of either dealers or users if they want to register well bred Shorthorn livestock.  I ride for the Shorthorn brand, but I'm not giving money to support other peoples habit.

Exactly! There's a strong demand for a lot of things that aren't in our long-term best interest.

 

[knabe]

Exactly! There's a strong demand for a lot of things that aren't in our long-term best interest.

Not really.

 

[caledon101]

We have consigned a very good shorthorn female to a top sale next month and she is "PHAF, THF and DSF". How many more genetic defect test results will I need to disclose and print in my catalog footnotes in the future? My point is, new breeders and investors with fresh money are vital to grow a breed. And this breed is starting to look like a genetic minefield to them.

When we started with shorthorns 15 years ago genetic defect issues existed of course but not documented and understood. Identifying a problem is 50% of the solution. You can't fix something until you know what it is. My point is, the associations didn't fix it! They had a window 10 years or so ago and failed to do what needed to be done.

Here's what I find interesting. If I mate two purebred shorthorns and the resultant calf is anything but red, white or roan the associations can and will ban me from registering it. However, using carrier sires is no problem. They are okay with that.

 

[Doc]

We have consigned a very good shorthorn female to a top sale next month and she is "PHAF, THF and DSF". How many more genetic defect test results will I need to disclose and print in my catalog footnotes in the future? My point is, new breeders and investors with fresh money are vital to grow a breed. And this breed is starting to look like a genetic minefield to them.

When we started with shorthorns 15 years ago genetic defect issues existed of course but not documented and understood. Identifying a problem is 50% of the solution. You can't fix something until you know what it is. My point is, the associations didn't fix it! They had a window 10 years or so ago and failed to do what needed to be done.

Here's what I find interesting. If I mate two purebred shorthorns and the resultant calf is anything but red, white or roan the associations can and will ban me from registering it. However, using carrier sires is no problem. They are okay with that.

I commend you for testing your sale consignment. We are testing our donors and herd sires. I am not at this time testing every cow in the herd. I have been raising Shorthorns for 44 years and have not seen that big of a problem , especially with DS. I think that what a couple of others say is true as far as raising what YOUR customer wants. If you stay with a non defect carrying herd then you should thank the guys that have defects in their herd. That means other people that are like minded to you should only come to you.
As far as not being able to register calves that are not breed colors, that is not true. You have the Shorthorn Plus registry.