Problem with Club Calf Industry...thoughts please

[clementcattle]

It's pretty scary to see how this has turned into a "commercial" vs. "club calf" battle.  Not my intentions at all.  But still interesting nonetheless.

 

[RankeCattleCo]

Politics may be one of the biggest problems in the ring... who you bought it from or the sire mainly.

"If he was a Heat Wave, he'd win."  "Well I guess hes a Heatwave now."

 

[twistedhshowstock]

A couple arguments here, the argument that club calves were intendedto pack more muscle on a smaller frame and feed out quicker at a cheaper cost.  Not true really, the club calf industry follows trends just like the commercial industry.  Back in the 50's they packed a ton of product on a tiny frame, I mean their bellies practically drug they were so small framed, then in the 80s you had the giraffes that were all leg and practically no product compared to frame size, we got em smaller again, but compared to one point in time they are a lot better balanced.  It is the commercial industry that is worried about how fast they grow and how they convert feed, commercial guys want them to grow faster on less feed thus keeping costs down and increasing profit.  In the show ring industry, we arent so much worried about how much it takes to get em there, just how they look when they get there.
For the whole statement about soundness, I can agree partially, but not totally.  I think in the steer ring to many judges bring over some heifer and bull criteria.  For example, style and soundness, now as I said earlier, I will definately use the 2 to seperate calves that are very close in terms of readiness and product, and if its a prospect show then they better be sound. But if it is a market show and not a prospect show we are judging them on which one would be best if hung on the rail that day, I could care less if he can walk to the feed pan anymore because the only place he has left to walk is to the kill line.  Trust me when that steak is on the plate you cant tell which one walked better and was prettier.

If you were intending it to be the problems in the club calf industry it would definately be Politics and Ignorance.  It shouldnt matter who a calf is out of, who owns it, what color it is, who bred it, who talked about it on the phone once. The only thing you can compare in the commercial industry, is yeah a lot of order buyers/feeders want to know who is producing the good calves, but mostly because they want to sign a contract with them to direct market their cattle.  But the politics/color/etc problems in the show ring really goes back to being the exhibitors fault.  Someone saw a lot of cattle from particular genetics/breeders winning and felt they were beating cattle that were better, so assumed it must be because of the genetics/breeder, so suddenly their good calf out of the herd bull is a Heatwave. It wins a show and bam its political so every good calf in the nation is a Heatwave that was sold by Lautner, when if everybody would have just been honest about their cattle in the first place they still could have won and we wouldnt have this issue.  Same goes with color, we saw a lot of black winning, nobody wanted to admit because it just happened that a majority of the best ones happened to be black, so it automatically has to be about color, so here we go dieing everything and painting em, so of course everything winning is black then and wham got to be black to win.  We all talked about how the blacks dont dominate the slick shows.  Part of that is becaused a lot of times the Char Influenced cattle slick a lot better, other part is because its really hard to dye one that you got to slick.  I am not saying there are no unethical/political judges out there, but people stop and realize that we as exhibitors have played into this.  We always talk about cattle winning because of where they came from, but if you look at a lot of the cattle winning the evidence doesnt necessarily convincingly support the accusation.  And I can tell you that as a judge I have been accused many times of using cattle out ofa particular sire, or from a particular breeder for that reason alone, but I can tell you that 90% of the time I had no clue what the calf was or where it came from til after the show, the 10% of the time that I did use a calf that I knew, it was because it was the best calf there.  Ask simmyman on here, I aint afraid to stick my friends at the bottom in the show ring, and I think there are a lot more judges like this out there than a lot of people give credit for.  A few really bad apples have ruined a lot of peoples opinions.

 

[KSanburg]

A couple arguments here, the argument that club calves were intendedto pack more muscle on a smaller frame and feed out quicker at a cheaper cost.  Not true really, the club calf industry follows trends just like the commercial industry.  Back in the 50's they packed a ton of product on a tiny frame, I mean their bellies practically drug they were so small framed, then in the 80s you had the giraffes that were all leg and practically no product compared to frame size, we got em smaller again, but compared to one point in time they are a lot better balanced.  It is the commercial industry that is worried about how fast they grow and how they convert feed, commercial guys want them to grow faster on less feed thus keeping costs down and increasing profit.  In the show ring industry, we arent so much worried about how much it takes to get em there, just how they look when they get there.
For the whole statement about soundness, I can agree partially, but not totally.  I think in the steer ring to many judges bring over some heifer and bull criteria.  For example, style and soundness, now as I said earlier, I will definately use the 2 to seperate calves that are very close in terms of readiness and product, and if its a prospect show then they better be sound. But if it is a market show and not a prospect show we are judging them on which one would be best if hung on the rail that day, I could care less if he can walk to the feed pan anymore because the only place he has left to walk is to the kill line.  Trust me when that steak is on the plate you cant tell which one walked better and was prettier.

If you were intending it to be the problems in the club calf industry it would definately be Politics and Ignorance.  It shouldnt matter who a calf is out of, who owns it, what color it is, who bred it, who talked about it on the phone once. The only thing you can compare in the commercial industry, is yeah a lot of order buyers/feeders want to know who is producing the good calves, but mostly because they want to sign a contract with them to direct market their cattle.  But the politics/color/etc problems in the show ring really goes back to being the exhibitors fault.  Someone saw a lot of cattle from particular genetics/breeders winning and felt they were beating cattle that were better, so assumed it must be because of the genetics/breeder, so suddenly their good calf out of the herd bull is a Heatwave. It wins a show and bam its political so every good calf in the nation is a Heatwave that was sold by Lautner, when if everybody would have just been honest about their cattle in the first place they still could have won and we wouldnt have this issue.  Same goes with color, we saw a lot of black winning, nobody wanted to admit because it just happened that a majority of the best ones happened to be black, so it automatically has to be about color, so here we go dieing everything and painting em, so of course everything winning is black then and wham got to be black to win.  We all talked about how the blacks dont dominate the slick shows.  Part of that is becaused a lot of times the Char Influenced cattle slick a lot better, other part is because its really hard to dye one that you got to slick.  I am not saying there are no unethical/political judges out there, but people stop and realize that we as exhibitors have played into this.  We always talk about cattle winning because of where they came from, but if you look at a lot of the cattle winning the evidence doesnt necessarily convincingly support the accusation.  And I can tell you that as a judge I have been accused many times of using cattle out ofa particular sire, or from a particular breeder for that reason alone, but I can tell you that 90% of the time I had no clue what the calf was or where it came from til after the show, the 10% of the time that I did use a calf that I knew, it was because it was the best calf there.  Ask simmyman on here, I aint afraid to stick my friends at the bottom in the show ring, and I think there are a lot more judges like this out there than a lot of people give credit for.  A few really bad apples have ruined a lot of peoples opinions.

Twisted the more I read your posts the more I believe you have seen pretty much everything that has been thrown out there. Undoubtedly no one has seen it all and there is always someone with a new trick up there sleeve, but I have to agree with your post on this thread completely.

In the club calf industry we make specific matings and spend countless hours studying genetics to try and get lucky and get that great offspring from that mating and once we figure out what genetic bloodline works with sire X we flush those embryos and mass produce those matings. While the commercial cattlemen with 100 to 5000 head of cows does not have the luxury to make those specific matings and probably doesn't want the headaches in doing so. Yes lots and lots of commercial outfit's AI their heifers and some cows for a better than average offspring but they simply don't have the time to breed and make those specific matings. The cub calf industry more closely mirrors the seedstock producers in the genetic field, and there are a bunch of seedstock producers that watch what is going on in and around the showring. There are plenty of them (including myself) that breed what we want how we want as well. Is there problems with the club calf industry? Yes, a good percentage of the problems stem from politics and liars. I think there are some of the cattle that are not functional as feeder cattle or breeding cattle. There is so much pressure to purchase a calf from one sire or another that people will spend money on animals that are not complete and then it's the bulls fault or the dams sires fault, heck we even read about it right here on SP.

 

[clementcattle]

Twisted, I greatly appreciate the integrity you have in the ring and thats something becoming more and more rare.  Thank you for that!

"I could care less if he can walk to the feed pan anymore because the only place he has left to walk is to the kill line."  I can understand that maybe in a commercial feeder class but in the show ring wouldn't you want to look for some quality, balance, and structual soundness when most club calfs are above average in terms of their degree of muscle?

 

[cdncowboy]

The soundness thing is really more of a female/bull quality.  I worked in a feedlot, those "unsound" calves that are discounted at the sale barn showed up their on the same liners as the "sound" ones.  Can't say as I remember seeing one that didn't feed out and walk his chubby little self onto the same liner at the same time as the sound cattle.  The difference in the real world was they made more off the sale barn misfits because they bought them cheaper. 
That being said the clubby bulls that are being promoted really need to start focusing on some form of soundness, its hard to breed for that great steer if your starting with an unsound parent.  I live far enough away from the centre of the club calf universe that it makes it hard to ever see any of these bulls, and close examination of the pictures often reveals some pretty nifty photoshopping.  I've learned to sift through the boards here to form an idea of what genetics may or may not work, for my operation.  My club calf herd is raised and run exactly the same as the rest of the commercial herd,  they graze for about 9 months of the year - yes even in our Canadian winters their out grazing.  The only special treatment they get is a sync and AI program, which includes no extra feed, mineral blends or other fancy add ons.  The calves never see creep feed, the sale calves get feed once they are weaned.  My point my club calf bred females have to work in a "real world" scenario or they get sent to a real world sale barn just like cull cows should.
The thing that is starting to bother me about the club calf industry is the lack of genetic diversity, really how many HW, and Monopoly THC sons or clones do we need.  I find it challenging trying to eliminate THC from my herd and still produce calves that have the same desirable qualities as the carrier cattle.  I have a goal to one day raise a THF bull that exhibits the same traits as most THC bulls with little or no HW influence.  It may be futile but I still enjoy "breeding" cattle not just multiplying them.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

Twisted, I greatly appreciate the integrity you have in the ring and thats something becoming more and more rare.  Thank you for that!

"I could care less if he can walk to the feed pan anymore because the only place he has left to walk is to the kill line."  I can understand that maybe in a commercial feeder class but in the show ring wouldn't you want to look for some quality, balance, and structual soundness when most club calfs are above average in terms of their degree of muscle?

In my opinion, and its exactly that my opinion, others will disagree with me, but even in the show ring it is a "market" steer show.  So the most important thing still remains muscle/product, finish, and being market ready.  What you said about the majority of club calves entering the show ring being above average in terms of degree of muscle, is in my opinion what allows us the privilage to look for balance, structural soundness, and style. I was not saying that I pay not attention to style, balance, and soundness, I was simply saying that power/product is in my opinion the most important thing in a Market class.  In a breeding class structural soundness is the most important thing in my opinion.  Have I used a steer that was more unsound over the completely sound and stylish one based on power, absolutely, does it happen often, not really, because like you said, there are so many good ones out there we dont always get put in that situation.
Chambero made a statement a few months ago when I was picking a steer up from him.  He was talking about how back when he was showing you saw the same families winning over and over again, because you didnt see the sheer number of really good cattle, but these days there are so many good cattle out there, that you can go out there and buy the best calf you have seen and get to the show and not do anything.  Not that anything went wrong but there are just so many good cattle out there these days.  So we generally get to the top end of the class and they are all pretty similar in terms of power, so then we can use soundness and style to seperate them.

 

[JSchroeder]

"I could care less if he can walk to the feed pan anymore because the only place he has left to walk is to the kill line."  I can understand that maybe in a commercial feeder class but in the show ring wouldn't you want to look for some quality, balance, and structual soundness when most club calfs are above average in terms of their degree of muscle?

They do look for that.  At the risk of getting personal, if you are claiming that today's major show judges aren't emphasizing balance, soundness, and movement I'm going to have to question whether you've actually been to or watched many big time steer shows in the past few years.  Between claiming there were only "two or three" steers at the national shows that were sound and could move and that the judges aren't looking for "quality, balance, and structural soundness" you sound like you're just regurgitating old criticisms without actually watching what's going on in the ring.

Two years ago the steers in San Antonio were selected on the walk.  It's been emphasized to the point that I've thrown fits wondering whether the judges realized they were judging the market steer show rather than breeding heifers.

 

[clementcattle]

That being said the clubby bulls that are being promoted really need to start focusing on some form of soundness, its hard to breed for that great steer if your starting with an unsound parent.  I live far enough away from the centre of the club calf universe that it makes it hard to ever see any of these bulls, and close examination of the pictures often reveals some pretty nifty photoshopping.  I've learned to sift through the boards here to form an idea of what genetics may or may not work, for my operation.  My club calf herd is raised and run exactly the same as the rest of the commercial herd,  they graze for about 9 months of the year - yes even in our Canadian winters their out grazing.  The only special treatment they get is a sync and AI program, which includes no extra feed, mineral blends or other fancy add ons.  The calves never see creep feed, the sale calves get feed once they are weaned.  My point my club calf bred females have to work in a "real world" scenario or they get sent to a real world sale barn just like cull cows should.
The thing that is starting to bother me about the club calf industry is the lack of genetic diversity, really how many HW, and Monopoly THC sons or clones do we need.   I find it challenging trying to eliminate THC from my herd and still produce calves that have the same desirable qualities as the carrier cattle.   I have a goal to one day raise a THF bull that exhibits the same traits as most THC bulls with little or no HW influence.  It may be futile but I still enjoy "breeding" cattle not just multiplying them.

 Unless they are doing there work and paying their bills then its down the road they go.  This is exactly how I wish to manage my future operation.  100% agree with this part of your philosiphy.

 

[clementcattle]

"I could care less if he can walk to the feed pan anymore because the only place he has left to walk is to the kill line."  I can understand that maybe in a commercial feeder class but in the show ring wouldn't you want to look for some quality, balance, and structual soundness when most club calfs are above average in terms of their degree of muscle?

They do look for that.  At the risk of getting personal, if you are claiming that today's major show judges aren't emphasizing balance, soundness, and movement I'm going to have to question whether you've actually been to or watched many big time steer shows in the past few years.  Between claiming there were only "two or three" steers at the national shows that were sound and could move and that the judges aren't looking for "quality, balance, and structural soundness" you sound like you're just regurgitating old criticisms without actually watching what's going on in the ring.

Two years ago the steers in San Antonio were selected on the walk.  It's been emphasized to the point that I've thrown fits wondering whether the judges realized they were judging the market steer show rather than breeding heifers.

I meant the show's collegiate judging contests that I competed in, each contest had one or two classes of market steers.  Not the stock show itself.

 

[CarleyE]

You can't compare club calves to commercial animals because they are so different in style and purpose. Club calves were originally designed to yeild a heavier carcass on a smaller frame and have better feed conversion so they feed out faster. Therefore costing the producer less money and time.  They became show animals but that wasn't their origional purpose, or what it wad supposed to be. They never took off in the commercial industry because they were too expensive

not to be rude, but this post is one of the few I've ever read that left me scratching my head... at what is the point you are trying to make...  You honestly have zero idea what you are talking about.  I've disagreed on alot of posts over the years, but almost every time, I could see where the poster was coming from- or that they could have a leg to stand on in regards to backing it up.

I don't think you know the true defintion of a 'club calf'.   (argue)

Im not going to get into a pissing match with you, because thats what you like to do on here. A lot of people would say that you are the one who has no clue and doesnt know what you are talking about. I wasnt making this into a commercial versus club calf war. I was just relaying what a cattle producer once told me, that was the story I was told about club calves from a friend of mine that owns a feedlot operation. You arent an expert! I'm not going to put anyone down or judge someone elses opinion. Who are you to say that that information is wrong? Its not like I pulled that info out of my ass, I heard that from someone who knows the industry.

 

[showsteerdlux]

You can't compare club calves to commercial animals because they are so different in style and purpose. Club calves were originally designed to yeild a heavier carcass on a smaller frame and have better feed conversion so they feed out faster. Therefore costing the producer less money and time.  They became show animals but that wasn't their origional purpose, or what it wad supposed to be. They never took off in the commercial industry because they were too expensive

not to be rude, but this post is one of the few I've ever read that left me scratching my head... at what is the point you are trying to make...  You honestly have zero idea what you are talking about.  I've disagreed on alot of posts over the years, but almost every time, I could see where the poster was coming from- or that they could have a leg to stand on in regards to backing it up.

I don't think you know the true defintion of a 'club
calf'.   (argue)

Im not going to get into a pissing match with you, because thats what you like to do on here. A lot of people would say that you are the one who has no clue and doesnt know what you are talking about. I wasnt making this into a commercial versus club calf war. I was just relaying what a cattle producer once told me, that was the story I was told about club calves from a friend of mine that owns a feedlot operation. You arent an expert! I'm not going to put anyone down or judge someone elses opinion. Who are you to say that that information is wrong? Its not like I pulled that info out of my ass, I heard that from someone who knows the industry.

Let me give you some advice. Before you go blabbing about how he has no idea what he is talking about, do a little research yourself before you look like a complete idiot. Whoever told your that definition wasn't right, it all goes back to 4H clubs. I have met the person you are calling an idiot and I can promise you he is nowhere near the idiot you are implying.

 

[JSchroeder]

I meant the show's collegiate judging contests that I competed in, each contest had one or two classes of market steers.  Not the stock show itself.

That makes more sense.  Livestock judging classes aren't put together to get an accurate cross section of cattle.  They're put together to give you choices to make and stuff to give reasons about.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I meant the show's collegiate judging contests that I competed in, each contest had one or two classes of market steers.  Not the stock show itself.

That makes more sense.  Livestock judging classes aren't put together to get an accurate cross section of cattle.  They're put together to give you choices to make and stuff to give reasons about.

I remember when I was judgin collegiately at one particular contest in one particular steer class there was a smokey colored steer that was about as post legged as I can remember seein one.  He weighed about 1350, was in ideal condition, I mean spot on ready to kill that day, and he was miles above the other 3 as far as muscle and product.  I used him to win the class.  My coach was about ready to hang me, I was the only person on my team to 50 that class.  That was really the point where I started stickiing to my guns, its a market class and if they are market ready, then you cant bottom them based on soundness alone.

 

[kfacres]

You can't compare club calves to commercial animals because they are so different in style and purpose. Club calves were originally designed to yeild a heavier carcass on a smaller frame and have better feed conversion so they feed out faster. Therefore costing the producer less money and time.  They became show animals but that wasn't their origional purpose, or what it wad supposed to be. They never took off in the commercial industry because they were too expensive

not to be rude, but this post is one of the few I've ever read that left me scratching my head... at what is the point you are trying to make...  You honestly have zero idea what you are talking about.  I've disagreed on alot of posts over the years, but almost every time, I could see where the poster was coming from- or that they could have a leg to stand on in regards to backing it up.

I don't think you know the true defintion of a 'club
calf'.   (argue)

Im not going to get into a pissing match with you, because thats what you like to do on here. A lot of people would say that you are the one who has no clue and doesnt know what you are talking about. I wasnt making this into a commercial versus club calf war. I was just relaying what a cattle producer once told me, that was the story I was told about club calves from a friend of mine that owns a feedlot operation. You arent an expert! I'm not going to put anyone down or judge someone elses opinion. Who are you to say that that information is wrong? Its not like I pulled that info out of my ass, I heard that from someone who knows the industry.

Let me give you some advice. Before you go blabbing about how he has no idea what he is talking about, do a little research yourself before you look like a complete idiot. Whoever told your that definition wasn't right, it all goes back to 4H clubs. I have met the person you are calling an idiot and I can promise you he is nowhere near the idiot you are implying.

(clapping) (thumbsup)

Lets take it back to dictionary definition...

Club (4H club, FFA Club, livestock club, etc)
Calf (calf geared for a show(s)).

So, that means- the intent of a club calf- is a calf, for a young, junior exhibitor to select, care for, prepare, show, and then sell for a premium in the junior sale for doing a good job and as a reward.  

So with that being said, I don't remember hearing anything about commercial acceptance, but then became too expensive, bla bla bla...etc...  

It's geared to be a learning experience for every single young person out there doing it-- it's been taken too far by some, but for 75% of those kids doing so-- they also want to win- and so with that being said, the def of club calf means...

a calf, used by a young club member, to learn, then to show- and lastly to be rewarded with doing a good job.

btw.. ncsteer... Sorry I never made it over to the cattle barns, I didn't forget about you... To be honest, I never even made it to the Country Store for a look around... Just too busy.. When you've got a ton to do, and only a few short days to get it done.. and then you have to make the rounds to see all the offspring of your sold stock... The days aren't long enough.  I don't think there was a night that we went to bed before midnight.. Heck, on Sunday night, we didn't begin the junior show for our breed until 10:30.

Anyways, send me a picture of that bull calf in an email... i'd really like to see it...  I might be interested in it... I'm gearing more towards black every day.

 

[CarleyE]

Showsteernc- why don't you reread what I said. I never called him an idiot.

 

[JY]

Have enjoyed reading all you guys opinions. If you think about this thread of course there really isn't a right or wrong. But I will say we raise club calves, have had very successful career with our child, and i grew up in the commercial industry. Every one is right about soundness. We do need to make show steers sounder. If you stop and think about it nearly all show steers are thick enough to produce an acceptable carcass. But the biggest problem is still calving problems. We don't want to sacrifice our cows using any sire that is known to sire extremely large calves at birth. If we use one of those sires we flush our donors, that way we protect our cows as best we can. But lately the farms running the receps don't won't those problems either. Cannot blame them. If you have ever watched or listened to Jack Ward judge major steer shows , he wil tell you on the mike that he doesn't use the thickest steer because of the problems that go with them and their mates. If more judges had the same opinion about this as Jack, we in the club calf business would be better off.

 

[chiangus]

I meant the show's collegiate judging contests that I competed in, each contest had one or two classes of market steers.  Not the stock show itself.

That makes more sense.  Livestock judging classes aren't put together to get an accurate cross section of cattle.  They're put together to give you choices to make and stuff to give reasons about.

I remember when I was judgin collegiately at one particular contest in one particular steer class there was a smokey colored steer that was about as post legged as I can remember seein one.  He weighed about 1350, was in ideal condition, I mean spot on ready to kill that day, and he was miles above the other 3 as far as muscle and product.  I used him to win the class.  My coach was about ready to hang me, I was the only person on my team to 50 that class.  That was really the point where I started stickiing to my guns, its a market class and if they are market ready, then you cant bottom them based on soundness alone.

(thumbsup)  Yep I don't think the end consumer eating the steak or hamburger wonders if that cow strutted like a cat.

 

[kfacres]

But the biggest problem is still calving problems. We don't want to sacrifice our cows using any sire that is known to sire extremely large calves at birth. If we use one of those sires we flush our donors, that way we protect our cows as best we can.

This post...

[quote

.

(thumbsup)  Yep I don't think the end consumer eating the steak or hamburger wonders if that cow strutted like a cat.
[/quote]

and this post... kinda go hand in hand...

To the real question here...

Does the consumer care if that steak was pulled, or c sectioned out of a cow when it was a baby, how many days ago?

Show steers are a terminal mating-- any way you look at it... Somewhere along the lines, that STEER will become hamburger- and unless cloned, will never get it's DNA continued to another generation. 

I don't agree with this post... I think that with every potential show steer mating, you've got to be going terminal with that calf...  The problem of the show steer industry, is that for many years those 'terminal' destined female offspring were retained-- for being 'different'... 

I don't know of very many ( A tiny %) of show steer destined matings... that would be successful with either sex born... 

 

[clementcattle]

But the biggest problem is still calving problems. We don't want to sacrifice our cows using any sire that is known to sire extremely large calves at birth. If we use one of those sires we flush our donors, that way we protect our cows as best we can.

This post...

[quote

.

(thumbsup)  Yep I don't think the end consumer eating t
he steak or hamburger wonders if that cow strutted like a cat.

and this post... kinda go hand in hand...

To the real question here...

Does the consumer care if that steak was pulled, or c sectioned out of a cow when it was a baby, how many days ago?

Show steers are a terminal mating-- any way you look at it... Somewhere along the lines, that STEER will become hamburger- and unless cloned, will never get it's DNA continued to another generation.  

I don't agree with this post... I think that with every potential show steer mating, you've got to be going terminal with that calf...  The problem of the show steer industry, is that for many years those 'terminal' destined female offspring were retained-- for being 'different'...  

I don't know of very many ( A tiny %) of show steer destined matings... that would be successful with either sex born...  
[/quote]

I would have to agree, that there is a lot that goes into that steak that is important to cattlemen, that the consumer wouldn't give two squirts of goat piss about.