Purebred status black Shorthorns?? Has this concept ever been explored?

[comercialfarmer]

Best definition I could find: Political correctness is the alteration of language to redress real or alleged injustices and discrimination or to avoid offense.
And yes, I am actually thinking of breeding my purebred Shorts to a black sire with the goal of creating some Shorthorn Plus progeny. Not much of a Shorthorn bull market in my part of the continent so why not try something a little different??

Hey, CF....not trying to be confrontational towards you! 
And yes, I know what it's like to have a new baby in the house.....been there, done that and it was the best thing in the world but as you know, you never sleep the same from the day they come home from the hospital. The fact you aren't getting your sleep means you are a good husband and a caring Dad!

Never heard of a Black Purebred Shorthorn.....hence my original question. Wasn't aware of any previous efforts both here and abroad to develop the concept.

Wasn't taking a position for the concept...or against. I was trying to learn of any possible history surrounding this.

IMO, to include a reference excluding or reducing % values in the By-Laws based on hair coat colour would qualify as a "bias". Every college professor in the world keeps telling us it's only hair colour; it has no economic value and, once the hide is off you can't tell what colour the animal was.

I have heard the Mamma Cow reference many times before...just kidding with you on that!

Have a super day.

Well, if you had tried to or not tried to have been confrontational, it probably wouldn't have mattered.  The new little one and her older sibling apparently tagged teamed me.  One sleep deprived me, then the other brought home some kind of bug.  My attitude would rival a freshly stepped on rattlesnake when getting sick.  So I put myself in a self imposed time out for a few days. 

Good luck with your ventures. 

I still would like to see the genetic base protected from further dilution.  I believe in capitalism and that you should be able to create and sell the best animal you can.  Take a chance.  I just think that angus was smart to keep a "closed" herd and force everyone else to concede. 

 

[EaglesNest]

One good thing about the purebred Show Shorthorns.........there is a significantly higher death loss during the partuition process. This kills off receipt cows,reduces, cattle numbers and then drives up cattle prices.

Here's a 5 year old cow that won every show in sight as a calf and went on to become an ideal, trouble free cow. That's her 5 month old Swagger bull calf at side. No creep and weighed 755 at exactly 6 months of age.
The cow?....a Byland Gold Spear out of an Agribition winning heifer calf from Horseshoe Creek in SK....a Trump based female.
So....a show female that went on to produce just great....and, out of a show female that did the same.

But...I don't totally disagree with you AJ.....too many calving issues within the breed right now. It's a concern as we see more females being produced that are coarse muscled and smaller framed than they should be.
Fudging birth dates is not a remedy to make up for poor WPDA. I have seen too many calves selling that really make me doubt their actual birth dates.

I agree w aj too many calving problems. In my first year in shorthorns I had more assisted births and stillborns than in thirty years of raising Salers. I since have learned of some of the shorthorn genetics involved and that explained alot of my calving issue.

 

[OH Breeder]

One good thing about the purebred Show Shorthorns.........there is a significantly higher death loss during the partuition process. This kills off receipt cows,reduces, cattle numbers and then drives up cattle prices.

Please elaborate on your extensive knowledge with first hand experience of "show genetics"? What resource did you use to get the numbers on partition death rate and specific shorthorn show genetics? What bloodlines have you used on your recipes that caused you the most death rates?

 

[aj]

You guys want me banned again don't you. I don't care. From what I heard from probably 100 people......is that Salut was a cow killer......they went to the work of setting up an aquantince's herd of 100 cows....to purposely and dishonestly change the numbers of him on birth weight. They got a slap on the hand for it when caught. This isn't a show ring trick.....this should be a felony. And all the Salute based cattle are winning the shows.....period. I was told they have a c-section table in the barn and all hands know how to do c sections there. Now ban me you son of a bitch.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Sure has been a lot of horror stories on a few show bulls calves. Been some really good calves to. It's the dice you roll if you choose these cattle. I've heard stories of dead piles of calves. I've heard stories of being able to do a c section so often they got good at it. I've heard stories of cows being brought in to calve and just did a c section to avoid any chances of problems.


Now, did I see all this? Nope. So the stories are just that. Stories. Gossip. Innuendo. Whatever. Jealousy could cause this. Or having true train wrecks can cause this. It's not my job to convince anybody. It's my job to form my own opinion from what I can educate myself on. Use of the epds is a good start. If a bulls bw  is very high, well, use your head. How did it get that high?????

 

[knabe]

Now ban me you son of a *****.

just produce something aj.

i guess you never will.

the armchair is too comfortable.

 

[twc77]

You guys want me banned again don't you. I don't care. From what I heard from probably 100 people......is that Salut was a cow killer......they went to the wyouf setting up an aquantince's herd of 100 cows....to purposely and dishonestly change the numbers of him on birth weight. They got a slap on the hand for it when caught. This isn't a show ring trick.....this should be a felony. And all the Salute based cattle are winning the shows.....period. I was told they have a c-section table in the barn and all hands know how to do c sections there. Now ban me you son of a *****.
[/quote

Not so much,old buddy. I think you received your time out last time from being just a lil mean spirited, jerk like with a touch of sour old man. This time just a touch confrontational. Sorta aj light really. if you want banned you will have to  be AJ again. Not just wrong but wrong and hateful. If they banned everyone here for being wrong , it wouldnt be much of a site.

 

[Duncraggan]

And yes, I am actually thinking of breeding my purebred Shorts to a black sire with the goal of creating some Shorthorn Plus progeny. Not much of a Shorthorn bull market in my part of the continent so why not try something a little different??//quote

The whole purpose of breeding pedigree cattle is not to conform to the 'accepted' but to be true to your beliefs!

Create a market for Shorthorns!  Don't become a 'Johnny-come-lately' and follow the fashion, be a trendsetter!

You will be trying to compete against thousands of black bulls, create your own demand for your superior product, or, sell your Shorthorns and buy black mongrels that are at least homozygous blacks.

I am a true believer in XBAR's "Friends don't allow friends to use crossbred bulls" saying!

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

And yes, I am actually thinking of breeding my purebred Shorts to a black sire with the goal of creating some Shorthorn Plus progeny. Not much of a Shorthorn bull market in my part of the continent so why not try something a little different??//

The whole purpose of breeding pedigree cattle is not to conform to the 'accepted' but to be true to your beliefs!

Create a market for Shorthorns!  Don't become a 'Johnny-come-lately' and follow the fashion, be a trendsetter!

You will be trying to compete against thousands of black bulls, create your own demand for your superior product, or, sell your Shorthorns and buy black mongrels that are at least homozygous blacks.

I am a true believer in XBAR's "Friends don't allow friends to use crossbred bulls" saying!

So if you believe that statement why are you going to cross black into your cows to try and sell more bulls? There isn't much of a market anywhere in the world for lots of shorthorn bulls. Maybe Australia. I honestly believe Jesus , joeseph , Mary and 40 cowboys would have trouble selling shorthorn bulls in large numbers every year. In America, the market share for shorthorn bulls is minimal at best. This whole idea of getting shorthorns black to be able to sell more bulls has worked for every other breed I believe. So now it should be shorthorns? God I hope not. That's the final nail in the coffin IMO. The breed isn't growing very much except in jr show cattle deals.

The bar has long ago been set. Shorthorns look up a long way to see it. Don't turn em black. They are the prettiest cows just the way they are. Every one different in its markings. That's unique. Fads change. Trends change. Right now most commercial folks stick to what's proven to work , makes a profit and has loads of proven bulls to achieve many different target areas. Until someone builds a shorthorn operation like a Sitz or a Express, Gardner , Shoshone, horse Butte. Those ranches all have made mass amounts of cattle that fit certain targets. Whats your target? Where do you want to go?

Personally, I'm going back to making beef. Angus cows. Char bull. All line bred. The resulting calves will be butchered. Period. If I can make it run and grow I may breed some angus cows to a RN Reed bull to make some F1's then back to another line bred char. I'm done with associations, fees, bitching all the time and nobody really changes. Divide divide divide. Blah

 

[Duncraggan]

Sorry TGCC, the first part of my reply was the quote!  Now amended!

I have no black, even noses, on my cattle!

I have invested heavily at, what I percieve to be, the bottom of the market in Shorthorns, I hope it pays off!  In the meantime, I am having fun and making no less than if I'd bought angus cows!

 

[comercialfarmer]

If they banned everyone here for being wrong , it wouldnt be much of a site.

(clapping)

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

- The whole purpose of breeding pedigree cattle is not to conform to the 'accepted' but to be true to your beliefs! - Create a market for Shorthorns!  Don't become a 'Johnny-come-lately' and follow the fashion, be a trendsetter! -

I am a true believer in XBAR's "Friends don't allow friends to use crossbred bulls" saying!

AGREE!!!

If Shorthorn are hardy to be sold in US, well I see some ways to try change it!

First will be change the breed, go to Angus or other black fashionable coat. If guys are buying coat and not quality, sale coat!

Second is, change the actual breed standard....if commercial breeders wish not buy the animal offer, well...maybe they wish not this kind of cattle....Are the ASA and breeders thinked on this possibilty? Maybe the product asked is not what ASA and some breeders are believing.

Third, if you (generalizing!) will produce what people ask, well make commercial cattle! Will be easier produce a steer on a year than an etire generation pure breed.

Wish not be agressive with none one, only my criteria and view point from a country where Shorthorns are also not wish so easily and blackies are the "breed of future".

 

[comercialfarmer]

Sorry TGCC, the first part of my reply was the quote!  Now amended!

I have no black, even noses, on my cattle!

I have invested heavily at, what I percieve to be, the bottom of the market in Shorthorns, I hope it pays off!  In the meantime, I am having fun and making no less than if I'd bought angus cows!

I seriously doubt it would drop much further, at some point the tide will turn when finances of the end product quality dictates more than just the brand of the end product, or a new brand is created.  That is, if quality of end product is as good as claimed in many studies.....

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe the genetics haven't been mined like in other breeds, and I believe that is an opportunity, in all aspects of the industry. 

I think with some good executive decisions and a little marketing, the breed could take off. 

And I wouldn't completely alienate the eye candy from it. 

 

[caledon101]

And yes, I am actually thinking of breeding my purebred Shorts to a black sire with the goal of creating some Shorthorn Plus progeny. Not much of a Shorthorn bull market in my part of the continent so why not try something a little different??//quote

The whole purpose of breeding pedigree cattle is not to conform to the 'accepted' but to be true to your beliefs!

Create a market for Shorthorns!  Don't become a 'Johnny-come-lately' and follow the fashion, be a trendsetter!

You will be trying to compete against thousands of black bulls, create your own demand for your superior product, or, sell your Shorthorns and buy black mongrels that are at least homozygous blacks.

I am a true believer in XBAR's "Friends don't allow friends to use crossbred bulls" saying!

My personal view....and, it's only my personal view, is that every beef breed association should remove all references to colour and let the chips fall where they may. If there is a market for something unconventional in colour within a breed...great. If not, then that producer is stuck with animals they can't sell for a premium over meat prices. The concept dies a natural death.

Hair coat colour has no economic value and, it is not an indicator of carcass quality, performance, fertility or any other trait that should matter.
The only stipulation I would include is that any "non-conventional" coloured animal can only be registered if both parents plus the individual in question are DNA verified.

One day we may see every female registered require parentage verification; not just sires. Breeders would submit a hair sample with every application for registration. One day, we may see the science evolve to where it is affordable and practical to do so.
To parentage verify every animal registered would add great integrity and accuracy to any Herd Book.
Associations spend too much time policing instead of promoting.
Again, just my opinion....I'm sure it will enrage people and send others into convulsions... but that's my view.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I agree with commercial farmer. The breed hasn't been mined yet. That's a great way to put it. I also agree with caldon. Let the chips fall where they may. But shorthorns have never been black. So I see no need to get them black. If done wrong the breed could loose some of the traits that could make it take off. Like tenderness. Eating quality. Mothering ability. Shorthorns don't need to be growth leaders. Either do angus. That's not suppose to be its strengths. Maternal and carcass is very good in shorthorns. Bw are in general to big. Calving ease is not there in the popular lines. I also agree the show ring is critical to shorthorns to survive. Lots of juniors love the red white and roan. Folks should make those lines more predictable. I think it's trying to happen. People are more aware then ever what the stigma is.

I will be watching with a keen interest to see how it goes.


And thanks for clearing that up dungraggen. I was a little confused. Makes much more sense now.  <rock>

 

[justintime]

To those people who say they cannot sell Shorthorn bulls in their area, I really have to question how hard they have tried. It is NOT an easy road, but if you build a better beast, and promote it properly, I think you can develop a pretty successful market. There are some outfits that are doing it and doing it pretty good. I can think of few places harder to sell Shorthorn bulls than in North Dakota a few years ago. I have attended many bull sales in North Dakota over the years and always felt that the guys selling Shorthorn bulls were really getting shafted. That has changed considerably in the past number of years, but it did not change without commitment and lots of hard work by some breeders who wanted to see change.  It seems to me that Derek Jungels has developed a pretty nice bull market. He did it by first developing some pretty good cattle and then doing the marketing as well. The marketing part is where most producers fall down, as most are pretty good on the production side of the equation, but not good at promotion or marketing. There are many other examples of producers who have designed their own success.
I also hear many of the same people who say they cannot sell bulls also blaming the show ring and show ring genetics as the main reason they cannot sell bulls. IMO, that is nothing but a very poor excuse for their failure. Personally, I wish the show ring and the commercial sides of the equation were closer together in type, but that isn't how they have evolved and in reality, they can exist as seperate entities. Each can select the genetics they feel will assist their breeding programs.  I hear that show ring genetics have too many calving problems. That may be partially true, but it is still no reason a person cannot sell bulls. This breed has a pretty big gene pool and I think there are lots of places to select sires and breeding stock from that can avoid these problems. There are quite a bunch of good cattlemen raising some pretty hard working honest cattle that will work anywhere, that would be more than pleased to talk with anyone who wants to change the genetics in their herd. I think there is a great opportunity to design a set of Shorthorns that can be born easily and that will grow into thick easy keeping cattle. I keep hearing that this is what has to happen, and if it is, then people have to get off their butts and make it happen. Actions and in this case, good cattle speak much louder than words. To simply say that Shorthorns are too hard calving to be commerically accepted is another cop out. There are lots and lots of lower BW and calving ease genetics to select from. You may have to spend more time researching and talking with breeders out there.
As far as black Shorthorns, I think this is not the direction we need to go. I don't think having black Shorthorns will improve the breed's acceptance in the industry.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

JIT, numbers don't lie. Shorthorn bull sales don't amount to much in the states. Maybe they do in Canada. Not here. Fact. Don't tell me people are just making excuses. That's a crock. Those reasons that I've stated are real and need to be addressed. I have no dog in this fight. I don't care who I offend by not kissing a ring. How many bulls did JSF sell last year? Compared to angus his sale was a good sale but just another sale. Maybe soon he will have 500 bulls a year to sell. That's what it will take. Breeders making big numbers of solid easy calving, good carcass, good maternal bulls. Period. If you are making money. Good for you. Bring those cattle to Ohio and have a bull sale. Good luck. Ever wonder why very few outfits offer bulls for sale in the annual production sale? Yet heifers fill the sale books. Hmmmmm wonder why. Because there isn't a demand for shorthorn bulls!!!! Fact!!!!

 

[justintime]

tgcc, your points are mostly true, but I am saying you have to start somewhere. Maybe you can develop a market for 5 bull in the next couple years, and then set a goal at selling 10 more in the next decade or so. It is slow going and it is hard work. I doubt if there are too many breeders in any breed that could hold bull sales of 500 head in Ohio. If you are interested in selling commercial bulls, selling them in your fall production sale is probably the worst place you could try to sell them. You might sell two or three to purebred breeders, if they are good enough, but these production sales do not attract many commercial producers unless they are wanting some Shorthorn females for their herds.
Taking market share away from a huge breed like Angus, will not happen overnight. It will take baby steps and lots of them. Waukaru have started to make some inroads into some larger commercial outfits in the West. These ranchers have used Angus bulls for decades and are now looking for a cross for their basically Angus cow herds. From what I am hearing, they are really impressed with the results. I do not think they ranchers are alone in this thinking but you have to get out and find them either personally or with promotion they will see. None of this happens by itself and it is not cheap. I would suggest that anyone who does not have the time, will or fortitude to tackle this job, should consider producing Shorthorn cross females and sell them as replacement females. If I was younger, I would tackle this as I get phone calls and emails for hundreds of these F1 females every year.

I do not think you have to measure success by the number of bulls a person sells. I can think of several breeders who have developed very successful bull sales by partnering with 2-3 other breeders in their area and working as a group. I would suggest that anyone who can successfully sell 20 bulls each year from a herd of 60-70 brood cows, if a pretty successful operation. I do not think we can evaluate success by comparing the numbers of bulls each breed sells. I also think that if we saw a small and steady increase in the numbers of Shorthorn bulls sold every year, I think we would be pretty excited.
I also have seen Shorthorn breeders so desperate to sell their bulls that they sell them at fire sale prices. I don't agree with this at all. If I happen to have passed bulls in my bull sales, I always price them for more than the upset price in the sale. There is a part of the beef industry that only wants to get a cheap bull, and I don't think they are the people we want to be targeting as potential bull buyers.
When I was growing up, my dad had developed a relationship with a Montana rancher and he would buy all our bulls annually.... usually 15-25 every spring and that was a big part of our farm income.Dad was always pretty careful to cull the bulls pretty hard as he knew this bull buyer had to be happy with them. When I got involved in our farm full time after college, this Montana rancher had retired and we learned the harsh realities of selling bulls. After a few years of varied successes, I made my mind up that I wanted to sell more of our bulls and each year since, I have set goals of how many bulls I wanted to sell each year. I started out with the goal of selling 5 each year, and once I had reached this goal I would set my goal a little higher. It has taken decades to develop a good bull market and this has not just happened because of my efforts. It has happened because a number of other breeders have also worked hard to promote Shorthorns in the commercial sector, through feeding trials, commercial Shorthorn female sales and bringing some pretty darn good working cattle out to our major shows. If everyone had just sat at home and complained about how bad it is to sell bulls, virtually none of this would have happened. As I said earlier, it simply will not happen by itself.... and producing a good product is only part of the answer.
If we only try to sell our bulls in our fall production sales, or only look at how many bulls some breeds sell, I can almost guarantee we will never see any growth in bull sales. Rather than worrying about what other breeds are selling, how about worrying about how many we can actually sell.... and sell at good prices.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I never said sell 500 bulls in Ohio. I said sell your bulls in Ohio. It's a different animal. I live in fluffy cow country. That's a fact. Summitcrest angus did a hell of a bull sale for many years in Ohio. They were bigger then Ohio. I don't have time  or the funds to develop a shorthorn here properly. I love the breed. But I'm going another direction for now. I need a quick dependable turnover. I can go to Keeney angus and buy some of the best maternal cattle I've ever seen for a 100 bucks over market. No papers. But I know for a fact they are pure maternal line bred angus. And when crossed with a line bred terminal sire, they will flat out work. Outside of saskvalley. Kapers and a few others, shorthorn doesn't offer line bred stock geared toward commercial application. Fact. I'd rather go with the cheaper proven cows to start. I don't have a family steeped in ranching. I'm the first one to try in three generations. And I'm poor. What would you do? Selling 5 bulls a year is ok but it won't pay the bills either. Gavin Fallon says the true realization of a seedstock herd can take 120 plus years to fulfill. So if you truly want to bring shorthorns back, pack a lunch. It's a long journey. I hope to someday come back to shorthorns but economically it doesn't pay right now. Name me one shorthorn farm where I can get cows in number for market price that are line bred and are exactly what is needed for a cow calf guy to turn a profit?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

And btw Mr Keeney also has the char cattle too. He even offered to just let me borrow a bill as long as I needed him and just give him the salvage value of the bill when done. That's pretty awesome to offer. I'm by far not the only one he's offered this to. He truly gets the big picture. He is a grumpy old cuss but he earned the right to be IMO. Look him up. Ask him why he refuses to play the AAA's games. It enlightening. All breeders of seedstock from all breeds could benefit by reading him and Larry Leonhardt's thoughts.