Purebred status black Shorthorns?? Has this concept ever been explored?

[OH Breeder]

You guys want me banned again don't you. I don't care. From what I heard from probably 100 people......is that Salut was a cow killer......they went to the work of setting up an aquantince's herd of 100 cows....to purposely and dishonestly change the numbers of him on birth weight. They got a slap on the hand for it when caught. This isn't a show ring trick.....this should be a felony. And all the Salute based cattle are winning the shows.....period. I was told they have a c-section table in the barn and all hands know how to do c sections there. Now ban me you son of a *****.

First- as someone else has already noted you have been banned usually for just being mean.
Second- I can count on one hand the times I was involved with your "BAN"
Third- You get enjoyment out of controversy as long as its someone else cattle.
Fourth- You don't know my mom and she at 80 yo is quiet the farm woman and I certainly wouldn't call her a Bi%^~. That's kind of rude. Seriously?
Fifth- You get on a public forum and antagonize others when they post. It sounds as though many times you might be challenged mentally in some way?

I simply asked where you get all your great SHOW information. SINCE you use so many SHOW genetics, then you must have first hand knowledge certainly and would never go by rumor? WHy is it when someone poked on you about your TH positive bull you peddled you got nasty? But you can come on public forum and run down an operation I would BET you have NEVER set foot in. It sucks when you are on the other side of the stick. You like to poke the bear but don't like it when you get poked back.
SO NOW.....Tell me about your profound knowledge of these deaths with show cattle? How many of those Salute calves died? How many c-sections did they do? What did they actually weigh? What FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE in YOUR herd do you have that you can share and contribute something besides hearsay?

There simple questions and I don't re member calling you any son of anyone or thing. I think when you have youth that use this forum for knowledge- post like yours perpetuate myths and rumor that are unfounded. IF there is one thing I have always enjoyed in this forum is the incredible knowledge of history that is here. This is a source that has invaluable to many. I wish when I was 9 there was some place to go like this. What I find frustrating is you have been at this shorthorn game for quiet sometime. You could offer tons of information on what genetics excelled in your herd. What crosses worked what didn't? I personally could careless if they are show genetics or not. I just like cattle that work for me. That doesn't mean they will work for someone else.

Not sure what is in your glass tonight Mr. Aj just asking questions? If you don't like them skip it.

 

[RyanChandler]

And btw Mr Keeney also has the char cattle too. He even offered to just let me borrow a bill as long as I needed him and just give him the salvage value of the bill when done. That's pretty awesome to offer. I'm by far not the only one he's offered this to. He truly gets the big picture. He is a grumpy old cuss but he earned the right to be IMO. Look him up. Ask him why he refuses to play the AAA's games. It enlightening. All breeders of seedstock from all breeds could benefit by reading him and Larry Leonhardt's thoughts.

(thumbsup)

 

[Doc]

And btw Mr Keeney also has the char cattle too. He even offered to just let me borrow a bill as long as I needed him and just give him the salvage value of the bill when done. That's pretty awesome to offer. I'm by far not the only one he's offered this to. He truly gets the big picture. He is a grumpy old cuss but he earned the right to be IMO. Look him up. Ask him why he refuses to play the AAA's games. It enlightening. All breeders of seedstock from all breeds could benefit by reading him and Larry Leonhardt's thoughts.

Good luck in your venture. The main thing that Keeney is doing that most people on here preach is , he is raising what makes him money. If raising commercial cattle is what you want to do, then more power to you. Obviously that is what makes him a living . He also says that not all his cattle are linebred, only select ones.
As far as the grumpy part goes, I don't see why someone would want to earn that distinction . I also don't know what has happened in his life that is so horrific that he is that way. He sure doesn't mention any earth shattering news in any of the writings that I read that shows he had any harder life than a lot of us have had.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

True, he is raising what makes him money. It's how he got to the point if realizing what works. And he isn't a commercial guy. He is a seedstock guy. He just doesn't need a assoc anymore. So he has choose a path less traveled. Maybe if anyone is still curious about him to give him a call. He is very open to anyone. As far as being grumpy goes, it doesn't bother me. He is set in his ways. He figured out after a long long time of mainstream ups and downs what works and what can help move the beef industry into the future. Think about it. Him and Leonhardt have forfeited a ton of money by going away from the assoc. I'm pretty sure the best stop shorthorn university could ever make would be in nancy Kentucky or Wyoming at Shoshone. JMO.

 

[RyanChandler]

Making money should never be the governing thought.  Dont think in terms of being a driven businessman, but focus on being a driven artist. Great things make money. - Lord Byron paraphrase.

IMO, this is what separates the master breeders -like Keeney and the King Larry Leonhardt- from the money driven multipliers.  They have a defined breeding program based on PRINCIPLES. And they adheres to those principles.  Which genetics won this show or which one that show has NEVER been a consideration.  I guarantee you the thought of incorporating this bull or that bull based on "these are the ones making money (today)" has never even crossed their minds.  Why? Because, undoubtedly, that mentality is counterproductive to ANY PREDETERMINED course.  It's that simple distinction that unifies all master breeders. 

 

[justintime]

Making money should never be the governing thought.  Dont think in terms of being a driven businessman, but focus on being a driven artist. Great things make money. - Lord Byron paraphrase.

IMO, this is what separates the master breeders -like Keeney and the King Larry Leonhardt- from the money driven multipliers.  They have a defined breeding program based on PRINCIPLES. And they adheres to those principles.  Which genetics won this show or which one that show has NEVER been a consideration.  I guarantee you the thought of incorporating this bull or that bull based on "these are the ones making money (today)" has never even crossed their minds.  Why? Because, undoubtedly, that mentality is counterproductive to ANY PREDETERMINED course.  It's that simple distinction that unifies all master breeders.

Making money may not be the biggest driver, but it is a factor in most operations. I only know of a few breeders who can not consider making money with their cattle operation. Even the very wealthy don't like to lose money year after year. In my own case, if I don't make some money from my cattle, my bills don't get paid and I don't eat. I make my living from my cattle, and I don't think I have ever been driven by show results in breeding decisions. I will use a show winner if I like it, but I have used lots of breeding pieces that have never been near a show, and are not considered to be so called " popular" genetics.
There is a fine balance between breeding cattle from the heart and breeding cattle from the head. You have to remember that if the cattle you breed, don't make money for you, they certainly have to be able to make money for the people who buy them. If making money is not a driver, why are people unhappy when they sell animals for less than they think they are worth. I guess I have never met a master breeder then, as every person I consider a master breeder as always put pretty decent price tags on their best cattle when I have tried to buy them. 

 

[knabe]

So go all in and don't renew dues and don't register anything.

Is your partner and banker up for that?

Is it part of your plan you communicated to them?

If live is blind, why is registration so popular?

 

[RyanChandler]

Money is not only the biggest factor, but the only factor, in every club calf oriented person I've ever encountered.  It it weren't, the dysfunctional, defect carrying, mongrelized genetics would be culled before noon. But the root of all evil continues to entice the weak into propagating these genetics.

Like you've said before, Grant. Breeding cattle takes time.  When I've sold an animal for less than  I thought it was worth in the past-- I didn't (initially) view it as an injustice to my pocketbook, but as an injustice to the animal.  IMO, honorable breeders value cattle in intrinsic terms as opposed to only evaluating their instrumental value.

 

[knabe]

Dispersal sale.

Why do you guys continually bad mouth people you could be marketing to?

If they are as stupid as you claim, it should be easy to sell to them and further your program.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

What is the value of seed stock? To sell a shorthorn bull takes some doing. When you price a bull at say 5k you just eliminated a bunch of potential buyers. Why is that bull worth 5k? His daddy is king swinging rooster and his dam lady of the night? I can go to Kansas and buy angus bulls at kent powells. Nancy Kentucky. Horse butte. Shoshone on and on for 2500 bucks and that will get you about any bull there. Bulls I'm learning in a maternal breed are only to further the cows(dam) influence. They would all rather sell there stock to anybody that chooses to. They all believe in spreading the seed. Passing it on if you will. It's beautiful.


And for the record if anybody reading this has the cash and resources and wants to build a new herd of shorthorns let me know. I'll work for you. My latest venture is not my money. Just a couple investors. It's just talk as of now but will happen soon if things stay the same. Just thought I'd put it out there.

 

[RyanChandler]

Money is not only the biggest factor, but the only factor, in every club calf oriented person I've ever encountered. 

That's total BS. Just because they use the bulls they want, and make money doing it, and not follow your opinion? You are so shallow and single minded its just unbelievable. Do what you want and leave clubbys alone. Just ignore all the clubby post and save yourself the bother of telling them how wrong they are.

Funny how you edited my quote to not include: "It it weren't (only about money), the dysfunctional, defect carrying, mongrelized genetics would be culled before noon. But the root of all evil continues to entice the weak into propagating these genetics. "

Name ONE positive functional characteristic associated w/ defect carriers that the multipliers are unable to find in defect free cattle.  You can't do it.  And the fact that you can't do it leaves room for no explanation outside of potential 'monetary reward.'  <cowboy>

* and again, its not just my opinion.  I just subscribe to the philosophical principles of master breeders- those at the top of my list being: Tom Lasater, Jim Lent, and Larry Leonhardt. 

 

[frostback]

I removed my post because your just not worth the time. You use what you want, and I will do what I want. I don't have to explain my choices to anyone. I am done with you.

 

[RyanChandler]

I knew you couldn't name one.  <party>

 

[knabe]

It's Jim Lents.

Did you read his book?

 

[RyanChandler]

I've read it and been up to Indiahoma twice.  His focus on breeding your cows to your best retained bull calf each year regardless of pedigree will be a guiding principle in my program going forward.

 

[caledon101]

Here in Eastern Canada when you drive through the countryside all you see is one farm after another with the fences removed, barns falling apart and former pastures now in grain production. I can't blame people for doing it either; farmers are just trying to make a respectable living and they can't do it as easily with beef cattle. I've lost count of the 100 acre farms that have been converted into sub-divisions.

I can't speak for others but around here if we can't sell a purebred yearling bull with reg papers and a breeding guarantee for $3000 or more then it's just not worth the hassle. I am only fooling myself if I think otherwise; the economics don't add up.
I am better off to ship them out as weaned calves in the fall and by-pass the winter test facility costs, advertising etc.

Selling yearling bulls for $1800 isn't "marketing"...it's surrender. But, people are free to sell their stock for whatever price they choose to; we have a free market system.
Unfortunately, while we do have a few progressive commercial producers in Ontario willing to pay a fair price for a quality bull, we have a huge majority who want to either rent one cheap or, buy one for glorified meat prices. You can always tell when you answer the phone and they ask "how much does he weigh?" They haven't even seen the bull yet and they are calculating the salvage value. What's equally unfortunate is that they won't need to make too many phone calls before they find a Shorthorn breeder more than willing to drop their pants.

The best Shorthorn bulls, with some exceptions, consistently seem to be those that are between 87.5% and 93.8% in "purity". Unfortunately, unlike their full sisters or, counterparts in the USA, they are not eligible for exhibit in Canada due to the fact Maine genetics don't have the same breeding-up advantage here.
You can't take them off the farm to display them in front of a crowd at various fairs. Consequently, the commercial man doesn't get to see some of the better bulls we can produce and offer to them.....and, our bull calf classes are not as large or as good as they could be.

Our association here is comprised of excellent people who volunteer their time on behalf of us all. They deserve our thanks and sincere respect for that. However, unless I am mistaken, there seems to be no real interest in Shorthorn Plus, Durham Red or harmonizing in any way with the ASA. That's just the way it is and if you want to breed Shorthorns in Canada you have to accept the fact that change is a glacial experience....including our membership and transaction numbers.


This isn't about being pessimistic or optimistic or, having an attitude problem.....it's about being realistic. The cow/calf industry has really diminished in our part of the country and, I don't see it turning around soon either. 

Unless a purebred producer can move a respectable % of his male production to the commercial man the chances of making a profit as a seedstock producer are slim.
I am not lamenting the state of things; and, I am really not too concerned about selling bulls; that's not my primary focus. If it was I certainly wouldn't be trying to do it with Shorthorns. 
For anyone in Ontario who can sell Shorthorn yearling bulls in quantity for $3500 or more.....congratulations! I sincerely mean that. Shorthorns cross beautifully.
The minority of commercial cow calf folks willing to spend a fair dollar are much less than in the past and, they have lots of other choices and breeds available to them. That's just good competition though!

Again, if you live in a province or area that is populated with serious commercial producers with herds large enough to justify investing in top quality walking bulls.....great! I hope you continue to acheive good results and build customer loyalty with many repeat sales.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

That's a great post caledon. You make many valid points. It's the reality many face. I see you acquire many expenses to promote your bulls. I applaud your efforts but is it all necessary? I sold lots of cows through word of mouth. Facebook. Steerplanet. That's all free. Post pics of your bulls and cows on here. Everybody must think a little different going forward. Grant does a good thing by teaming up with other breeders to offer similar cattle in bigger numbers. I can see that happening more in the future. Beef in general is at a crossroads IMO. Days of high input are gone. Long gone. It's been said to me before. If your cattle can't make a profit at commercial prices, you need to take a step back and ask why. Jmo.

 

[Bradenh]

Money is not only the biggest factor, but the only factor, in every club calf oriented person I've ever encountered. 

That's total BS. Just because they use the bulls they want, and make money doing it, and not follow your opinion? You are so shallow and single minded its just unbelievable. Do what you want and leave clubbys alone. Just ignore all the clubby post and save yourself the bother of telling them how wrong they are.

Funny how you edited my quote to not include: "It it weren't (only about money), the dysfunctional, defect carrying, mongrelized genetics would be culled before noon. But the root of all evil continues to entice the weak into propagating these genetics. "

Name ONE positive functional characteristic associated w/ defect carriers that the multipliers are unable to find in defect free cattle.  You can't do it.  And the fact that you can't do it leaves room for no explanation outside of potential 'monetary reward.'  <cowboy>

* and again, its not just my opinion.  I just subscribe to the philosophical principles of master breeders- those at the top of my list being: Tom Lasater, Jim Lent, and Larry Leonhardt. 

The monetary reward is the only functional characteristic that really matters at the end of the day? Isn't that why we are all in the business? Is that's why it's called a business? Or an industry?

Isn't frostback entitled to do whatever is needed to make money, and get the bills paid

The only functional performance number that matters is the number in your checking account- "functional beef characteristic" is subject to your opinion on whatever is convenient to call someone else on in an attempt to try to make you look credible


For me and ill speak for frostback, the #1 functional characteristic is profitability, how one gets there shouldn't matter to you

If people enjoy working with "mongrelized" cattle what does it matter to you? If it's something that person enjoys doing and makes alittle money on the side

If you put a chip in a vehicle to make it fast your an idiot, it's no more functional, just more dangerous and fun to ride

When in reality of you want to jack a truck up and put a chip in it more power to you! If it makes your ride more fun and it's your calculated risk

Who cares what anyone else says?

Using a chip as a defect- being that speed (or bone or hair) isn't nessicery. Just fun.

Or jacking the truck up is like having show cattle- it's no different just easier to sell, more fun to look at

 

[RyanChandler]

Money is not only the biggest factor, but the only factor, in every club calf oriented person I've ever encountered. 

That's total BS. Just because they use the bulls they want, and make money doing it, and not follow your opinion? You are so shallow and single minded its just unbelievable. Do what you want and leave clubbys alone. Just ignore all the clubby post and save yourself the bother of telling them how wrong they are.

Funny how you edited my quote to not include: "It it weren't (only about money), the dysfunctional, defect carrying, mongrelized genetics would be culled before noon. But the root of all evil continues to entice the weak into propagating these genetics. "

Name ONE positive functional characteristic associated w/ defect carriers that the multipliers are unable to find in defect free cattle.  You can't do it.  And the fact that you can't do it leaves room for no explanation outside of potential 'monetary reward.'  <cowboy>

* and again, its not just my opinion.  I just subscribe to the philosophical principles of master breeders- those at the top of my list being: Tom Lasater, Jim Lent, and Larry Leonhardt. 

The monetary reward is the only functional characteristic that really matters at the end of the day?

Have you no honor?


http://youtu.be/-BiLCJxpqi4

 

[knabe]

To me, the most interesting thing about the Lents book was what wasn't said.

A comparison of breeding strategies between the 12 tribes of Israel and Ishmael.

One population has some defects, the other a lot.

There's a reason genomics companies are scouring ishmaels descendants for defects.