Purebred status black Shorthorns?? Has this concept ever been explored?

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Interest topic. Also a taboo topic.
At my view pointe in around 6 to 7 years we will see black Shorthorn on main herd book.
The moviment already started with Shorthorn Plus, and these ones will to be use soon on main herd book, as Irish and asterisks were used....by the way genetics is genetics, and black is dominante over all other colors....so soon black Shorthorns!

I think your view on this might be somewhat speculative. I certainly don't know of any Black Shorthorn train steaming down the tracks. It's never been a rumour or a point of conversation; at least not that I am aware of. And, I sincerely doubt there is any movement building. A black Shorthorn cannot exceed a 50% purity rating and that can't change unless By-Laws are voted upon and approved by the membership(s). There's no threat.

The ASA has generated more registry transactions and revenue through their Shorthorn Plus and Durham Red programs. In hindsight, have these been good programs? Was the intended results realized?

I am not for....or against the concept of a Black Shorthorn. I just wonder what the reaction would be if the reference to hair color was removed from the rules of eligibity. I suspect some breeders would walk away, most would simply carry on with the status quo and not react, and some would pursue the opportunity to develop and promote a new sub-brand within the breed. And, just because a Black Shorthorn animal was available doesn't mean the commercial sector would automatically want it either?? It's not a short cut for promotion?

30 years ago Black Simmentals were pretty much a non issue. Today they seem to dominate the non-fullblood, purebred sector of the breed. Fullblood Simmentals of course cannot be black. That hasn't changed. My understanding is that in Canada black and/or solid red purebred status Simmentals now account for over 80% of all registrations.

Of course I'm speculating! I have not a crystal ball!

You is also right regarding what breeders will do, some ones will follow, other will not follow and another ones will only carry on.

But I would like know about what simmie and limmie breeders could think at 30 or 35 years ago about black hides on their breeds.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Fortunately I'm safe, we don't even allow black noses!

This colour discussion is like prodding a beehive with a short stick on a hot summer afternoon! BEWARE!!!!

I'm safe too. Black noises are summarilly cut off and not use bulls on Ai that I heard that put black noises. As well not use non asterisk bull as well.

 

[caledon101]

I was a staunch fullblood Simmental breeder 30 years ago and I had no interest in anything beyond that. My cattle were big, high performance, horned and very traditional in colour. Calving problems was often a serious issue at that time. That's one aspect I certainly don't miss.
  Black Simmentals were not on the radar or, popular in the 80's. However, looking back I think it was wise for the Canadian and American associations to allow them. That's just my opinion.
An Association is made up of members who ultimately decide on the key issues in a democratic fashion. Members have a voice. They shouldn't feel restricted in expressing their ideas; even if those subjects are considered "taboo" by some.
It's just my opinion but, even though I don't subscribe to the non-appendix or "fullblood" ideology I have absolute respect for those that hold that faith. There are individuals, good, honest people who have invested serious money to build those programs. And, some of those operations and herds are multi-generation. Therefore, it is important to protect that herd book.
I also believe it is equally important for the non-appendix devotees to understand that while they feel safe and comfortable with the status quo others may have a higher tolerance for change and risk.
I commend the Simmental breed for not only tolerating but celebrating their diverse history. Even 30 years ago we had many options and "sub brands" within the fullblood genetic base alone....Fleckvieh, Swiss plus 3 French imported varieties (Pie Rouge, Abondance and Montbeliard). And today we have African Fleckvieh as well.

Again, I am not championing Black Shorthorns. However, I am curious to know where the CSA (along with the non-appendix group) intend to get future growth from? What's the plan to increase membership, transactions and revenue? They don't want Shorthorn Plus or Durham Red programs and I respect that however, where will future increases come from then?
I am not criticizing advertising; it's essential and it works. And, if CSA sponsored ads help producers to sell more bulls....awesome! It's a positive expense and well worth it then.

 

[knabe]

The decision to accept Maine genetics at 3/4's must have generated some heated debates also?? Some of the old timers I talk to say it saved the breed. I'm not sure if that's an accurate assessment or not but I guess the question is, what would the Shorthorn breed look like today....where would it be, if Maine genetics had not been implemented?  Better? Same? Worse?

who else besides cunia (trump) or stinger figures prominently in shorthorns?

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I was a staunch fullblood Simmental breeder 30 years ago and I had no interest in anything beyond that. My cattle were big, high performance, horned and very traditional in colour. Calving problems was often a serious issue at that time. That's one aspect I certainly don't miss.
  Black Simmentals were not on the radar or, popular in the 80's. However, looking back I think it was wise for the Canadian and American associations to allow them. That's just my opinion.
An Association is made up of members who ultimately decide on the key issues in a democratic fashion. Members have a voice. They shouldn't feel restricted in expressing their ideas; even if those subjects are considered "taboo" by some.
It's just my opinion but, even though I don't subscribe to the non-appendix or "fullblood" ideology I have absolute respect for those that hold that faith. There are individuals, good, honest people who have invested serious money to build those programs. And, some of those operations and herds are multi-generation. Therefore, it is important to protect that herd book.
I also believe it is equally important for the non-appendix devotees to understand that while they feel safe and comfortable with the status quo others may have a higher tolerance for change and risk.
I commend the Simmental breed for not only tolerating but celebrating their diverse history. Even 30 years ago we had many options and "sub brands" within the fullblood genetic base alone....Fleckvieh, Swiss plus 3 French imported varieties (Pie Rouge, Abondance and Montbeliard). And today we have African Fleckvieh as well.

Again, I am not championing Black Shorthorns. However, I am curious to know where the CSA (along with the non-appendix group) intend to get future growth from? What's the plan to increase membership, transactions and revenue? They don't want Shorthorn Plus or Durham Red programs and I respect that however, where will future increases come from then?
I am not criticizing advertising; it's essential and it works. And, if CSA sponsored ads help producers to sell more bulls....awesome! It's a positive expense and well worth it then.

Thanks for your comments. I was just curious to hear how the black fashion was insert on continental breeds.
I'm not against Durham Reds, Blacks Shorthorn or asterisks, I'm smart enough to respect these lines and understand that some times in some enviroments or for some customers these changes are necessary. By other hand I also wish respect for my selection criteria, that is an asterisk free cattle. Also am smart enough to understand that many asterisk free are not as well, and a huge doubt is on open pedigrees on irish and australian catlle. Also not uderstand why some guys keep discouraging asterisk free followers with non conclusive pedigrees analyses...but is a hardy matter to discuss of course.
Finally the unique thing that I would like see on North American herd books was HONEST pedigrees and clear rules for overseas like me, show confidence in import or use some bloodlines.

Good comments.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

The decision to accept Maine genetics at 3/4's must have generated some heated debates also?? Some of the old timers I talk to say it saved the breed. I'm not sure if that's an accurate assessment or not but I guess the question is, what would the Shorthorn breed look like today....where would it be, if Maine genetics had not been implemented?  Better? Same? Worse?

who else besides cunia (trump) or stinger figures prominently in shorthorns?

Knabe, maybe Cunia and Stinger were used on a time were AI became more popular and appear on a time where people were looking for change cattle as quickly they could.

By the way I not see another so popular and influencial bulls different of these two ones, same with hundreds different bulls available on that time.

Also as traditional SHorthorn type was looking for a change, of course that none traditional Shorthorn type could be used so widely as these two ones, also many traditional were available and the diversity was spread on registers data.  As these two one were able to do a real job, they were used more frequently than other Maine bulls as you know well.

Is only a comment!

 

[caledon101]

Well, at some previous time and place someone first floated the initial idea of using Maine genetics to dramatically influence the Shorthorn breed. I don't know who that individual was but I suspect the reaction to his or her idea was interesting.
A broad spectrum of active members will make any association stronger. Having some diversity in not only your genetics and animal types but in your membership also is a healthy thing?
I think it is important to have a good blend of cautious and conservative thinkers to counterbalance the run and gun folks. Regardless, positive change and progress starts with "ideas". And, someone, somewhere stood up and suggested that Maine's should be rated as 3/4 in the ASA Registry. And, according to some....saved the breed.

 

[aj]

The Shorthorn bull Enticer was out of a fullblood maine cow. The paper didn't show that. I think Enticer was actually * free on paper.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Yes AJ, I was meaning to Enticer. Some other I suspect also to be pedigrees "mis-fakes".

 

[aj]

On a previous board I think it was mentioned that around 5 red Maine bulls blood typed ok for Shorthorn.........kinda interesting cause there probably is more maine than thought in the breed......undocumented and.........the Maines are part Shorthorn.

 

[justintime]

To me it really doesn't matter in the past as it cannot be changed now. I think there have been breeders with no scruples in most every breed besides the honest mistakes that have been made in the past and present. I think DNA analysis has added a huge improvement to registration errors however, it is not 100% perfect as not all cattle are DNA parentage verified. 
There are cattle in every branch of the breed ( and in any breed) that have questionable genetics in their heritage. IMO, we have to accept this fact and move on. There was no bigger " purist" than me years ago, however, I after seeing so many un-pure genetics being dumped into the so - called " purebred " sides of the registry, I decided to not get hung up on this fact and just try to breed some cattle that worked here. I am reminded of a wonderful conversation I had in Scotland with Donald and Diana McGillvary who owned the famed Calrossie Shorthorn herd. When I asked them if there were any Shorthorns left in Scotland that were 100% from the old Scottish lines, Donald replied " I certainly hope not".

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

On a previous board I think it was mentioned that around 5 red Maine bulls blood typed ok for Shorthorn.........kinda interesting cause there probably is more maine than thought in the breed......undocumented and.........the Maines are part Shorthorn.

Bloodtype is not an accurate test. I wish see new tests using actual DNA protocols where we can define breeds differences....and yes, this is possible.

Regarding Maines are part Shorthorn....Santa Gertrudis are also, Belgian Blues too, as well Bonsmaras....so, we will accept these ones on breed too?

 

[coyote]

JIT. I am reminded of a wonderful conversation I had in Scotland with Donald and Diana McGillvary who owned the famed Calrossie Shorthorn herd. When I asked them if there were any Shorthorns left in Scotland that were 100% from the old Scottish lines, Donald replied " I certainly hope not".

I think some of these genetics pictured below, from over that way, are more appealing to me than the Shorthorns they have over there now. It seems to me they have turned the Shorthorn Breed into a terminal breed to compete against the Charolais and Limousine .

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

JIT. I am reminded of a wonderful conversation I had in Scotland with Donald and Diana McGillvary who owned the famed Calrossie Shorthorn herd. When I asked them if there were any Shorthorns left in Scotland that were 100% from the old Scottish lines, Donald replied " I certainly hope not".

I think some of these genetics pictured below, from over that way, are more appealing to me than the Shorthorns they have over there now. It seems to me they have turned the Shorthorn Breed into a terminal breed to compete against the Charolais and Limousine .

Yes, you put the finger on the exact point. Almost all native breeds on UK turn on - Native-continental - of course that this was ncessary to avoid extinction of these breeds there, where Simmies, Belgian Blues and Charlais are the higher register number on that place. Market necessity.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Some guys here always cite a bloodtyping test where Shorthorn and Maines are very closer.
I wish get access to this test please, but the most important, I wish get access to exact animals (pedigrees) from samples were collect! Some answer will be found on this study I suppose.

 

[caledon101]

Some guys here always cite a bloodtyping test where Shorthorn and Maines are very closer.
I wish get access to this test please, but the most important, I wish get access to exact animals (pedigrees) from samples were collect! Some answer will be found on this study I suppose.

A couple of years ago I asked a bovine lab service if they could actually identify, through DNA, the breed % or composition of an individual.....for example, could they report that an animal is 50% Shorthorn and 50% Angus from a hair sample? They said no. All they can do is tell if a particular individual is or is not the progeny of two specific parents.
Perhaps there has been some new science or new testing made available that enables the lab to not only confirm parentage but, to confirm the breed origin and %'s?? I must admit I doubt however if so, very interesting!

 

[RyanChandler]

Contact Scot Pfeiffert with SJCC. All of his cattle have been DNA verified 100% SH  (lol)

 

[garybob]

JIT. I am reminded of a wonderful conversation I had in Scotland with Donald and Diana McGillvary who owned the famed Calrossie Shorthorn herd. When I asked them if there were any Shorthorns left in Scotland that were 100% from the old Scottish lines, Donald replied " I certainly hope not".

I think some of these genetics pictured below, from over that way, are more appealing to me than the Shorthorns they have over there now. It seems to me they have turned the Shorthorn Breed into a terminal breed to compete against the Charolais and Limousine .

2nd from the right, and, 3rd from the left, are my two favorites. 1st bull on the left looks tall and gutless, especially during the era depicted.

GB

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I don't know if we are discussing about same ways to check DNA. I have available here in southern Brasil at least four labs that are able to verify paternity (sire and dam), but they have not the necessary technology to verify breeds infusions.

I found on web some papers that describe these breed infusions on many different breeds, some papers also can give us when - timeline or generations - these infusions occur.
I'm trying to get a lab able to check these infusions, not only the usual paternity or usual marbling/tenderness tests.

Some times after read some posts here I become confuse, don't understand if some guys - not the ones here discussion now - are stupid or if they really wish not see the proper matter being discussed. Is impossible that people on bigger cattle producer as USA not understand that a single paternity tests will always found 100% SHO genetics, of course yes, none one that falsify your pedigrees will send false samples!

Before someone criticize me....I'm not talking specifically to one or another breeder...is merely an observation.

 

[RyanChandler]

Theres no push for it here bc those claiming 100% shorthorn have nothing to gain from it, and everything to lose.