Raising clubbys is inhumane

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kanshow

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Excellent points JIT.      And the 110 pound unassisted bw wouldn't bother me because the other half of the equation (The Cow) was able to get him out. 

I'm a firm believer in pelvic measurements.    What I can't figure out is why more people don't use this tool.    They go to a lot of expense on purchasing a low BW, CE bull and then still have a wreck.  Who gets blamed?  The bull...  when maybe a few dollars spent on getting pelvic measurements would have saved a lot of time, money, and grief.   

Are there any breeds association recording Pelvic Measurements?  It's got to be pretty heritable. 
 

frostback

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justintime said:
GB...... I could not agree with you more!  Yes there is a definite correlation between selection for low birth weights and smaller pelvic areas. My vet says the same thiing, and he says they are doing more C- sections on heifers with75 - 80 lb calves than he has ever seen in his years of practice. He was telling me about a research study that showed that constant selection for low birth weight will result in smaller pelvic areas. I am going to have to ask him again about this and see if I can find a copy of the study. I also know of a large commercial herd who has been using low birth weights as a selection tool for buying their herd bulls. After several years of doing this, they are pulling more calves than ever before. Some of these heifers would have a problem calving a small cat.

Thanks JIT you say it and will be gospel, I say it and I am just another women in the cattle world of man that does not know anything.
 

frostback

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TJ in response to your statement.
Lowlines were not only selected for low birth weight. They were selected for low growth. That being said that shrunk all factors somewhat the same. It shrunk hip height, birth weight and feed conversion so they kept in proportion. I am sure there are others but had a bad night and still not thinking clear.
 

CAB

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Are any breed associations getting data for use in making epds for pelvic area. That's one epd that I would use for sure.
 

Cowboy

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After a life time in the reproductive business end of this great way of making a living -- I aplaud JIT -- real world cattle knowledge in every word he says!

Some day I would like to meet you pard -- meybe even set up a day or two to just THINK out loud in front of about 100 or so young folks who are starting out on thier own. That would be the ultimate gift of knowledge after a lifetime of hands on learning -- there is no better teacher alive or dead than experience!

(clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

(thumbsup)

Terry
 

TJ

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frostback said:
So let me see if I got this straight? I can breed any lowline bull to a lowline heifer and I will be alright? You dont have bulls that would be better for heifers?

Dori, may know something that I don't, but honestly, almost nothing is ever discussed among Lowline breeders about what bulls work best for breeding to virgin, Lowline heifers, because all of them seem to work very well.  I've used Doc Holliday on 5 virgin fullblod heifers (two pretty small) & all 5 calved unassisted.  I bred Doc's 1/2 brother to a virgin Lowline heifer & she calved unassisted.  Cindy Jackson had bred Hank (45" & 1400 lbs.) & JR (45" 1350lbs.) to virgin, fullblood heifers & she's never assisted a calf.  I sold a virigin fullblood heifer & a bull (SC Rufus 45" 1250 lbs.) to a guy in South Carolina & the resulting calf was born, unassisted.  Tim Robinson in FL, has bred I don't know how many different fullblood bulls to virgin, Lowline heifers & he knows lots of breeders in the USA & Australia. He said he's never heard of a Lowline sired calf having to be assisted.  I'm sure an exception to the rule probably exisists, but Lowline females are ususally as good as the bulls about calving ease.        

BTW, Jerry Adamson was the one who bred Dr. Who to a FULLBLOOD Lowline female (mature - not a heifer).  It ended up being a really nice calf, too!    
 

TJ

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justintime said:
GB...... I could not agree with you more!  Yes there is a definite correlation between selection for low birth weights and smaller pelvic areas. My vet says the same thiing, and he says they are doing more C- sections on heifers with75 - 80 lb calves than he has ever seen in his years of practice. He was telling me about a research study that showed that constant selection for low birth weight will result in smaller pelvic areas. I am going to have to ask him again about this and see if I can find a copy of the study. I also know of a large commercial herd who has been using low birth weights as a selection tool for buying their herd bulls. After several years of doing this, they are pulling more calves than ever before. Some of these heifers would have a problem calving a small cat.

As I get older, it is becoming very apparent to me, that most everything in life is best in optimum amounts, and this goes for most everything from the food we eat, to the amount of money we make, to how we breed our cattle, etc etc etc. Just look at most anything in your life... and too much or too little of anything almost always results in problems of some kind.  In regards to birth weights, I think we all should be considering calving ease in conjunction with birth weights. Personally, I think that if we try to select for only low birth weight, we are also selecting for shorter made animals. It stands to reason that a calf that is 1 inch longer than another calf, is going to weigh more.

I also feel that selection of low birth weight sires also can result in calves that have less performance. Occasionally you will get a high performance animal that had a very low birth weight. This is usually the exception rather than the rule. We have just completed our bull test for our upcoming bull sale. Not one of my bulls that indexed over 100 for ADG and WPDA , are in the lowest 50% for birth weights. Again I say NOT ONE. I find this perplexing as almost every inquiry I have on the bulls, is concerned about birth weights... and virtually no one is concerned about the performance of the bull. In times like we have now, with high grain prices, I happen to think that performance is extremely important. I also agree that no one likes having to assist a birth, so there has to be some optimum point  where we can achieve both. I think this almost obsession about birth weights in the beef industry is way over blown, and I am afraid that if we continue down this trail too far, that it is only going to bring problems of other kinds.

Eight years ago, I made a decision that I would band any bull calf that I had to assist at birth, unless it was a malpresentation.If the calf still needed to be assisted after the malpresentation was corrected, it would also be banded. I also started banding every bull calf with a BW of over 110 lb, regardless if it was born unassisted or not.... and regardless of it's pedigree. It has really been hard to band a few excellent bull calves that looked great, but happened to have BWs over 110 lb, but I have bit my lip and done it.  Maybe I have been lucky, but I have not had any bull buyer complain to me about having calving issues from our bulls since I started doing this. Some of you will say that 110 lb is too big a BW but I decided to keep bulls with these birth weights providing they were born unassisted. I felt that I also wanted to maintain some performance in the bulls. I do not know if this is the proper cut off weight to use but it seems to have been working here anyways. I always ask a potential bull buyer if they is planning to breed heifers. If they are, I steer them away from the 110 lb BW bulls and suggest others to them. If they are breeding cows and are concerned about weaning weights, or are feeding out their calves, I recommend the larger birth weight calves.

Selection using only performance is also not the best idea. Several years ago, one of the best herds in this part of the world, based all their selection on performance. They kept all their heifers and the replacements were selected from the highest performing end. They were selected from the top 20% based on yearling weight. After a few years of doing this, they found that they were seeing more reproductive problems in their replacements. They changed the selection criteria, and the top 10 % were finished and slaughtered. Their replacements came from the next 20%. They then sold the next 20 %  as breeding heifers for others to purchase and the bottom 50% were fed out and slaughtered as well. Once they figured out that Optimum was the best, their fertility in their herd improved very signifigantly.

Back to the topic of this thread. No cow should ever be bred to a bull that could result in a 160 lb calf. That is simply retarded. I don't care how good his calves are, I would simply NOT use this sire. I would never use a bull that consistently threw some calves that were 125 lb or more. I will agree that there is more to having a high birth weight calf than just the sire used. The bull seems to get blamed for everything. Part of the genetics for birth weight comes from the dam as well. If you constantly keep a bunch of heifers that have high birth weight genetics stacked into their pedigree, you are probably going to have some big calves from any sire you use... even a low birth weight sire.  There is another selection tool that is often forgotten... and that is COMMON SENSE. There is no element of common sense in using a bull that could kill your cows or result in dead calves, injured calves or injured cows.... or higher vet bills. Period!!!

I think that the problem is that too many heifers are being assisted today than ever before & then they are allowed to remain in the cow herd.  If you don't cull those females, then you are breeding calving trouble into your herd. 

The other problem is that people chased more growth & that usually (not always) leads to bigger birth weights.  Or they want to raise the next champion & ususally (not always) the heavier birth weight calves end up being more massive.  So, rather than making sure a bull can sire an unassisted calf, people are more concerned about other traits.     

When my dad was growing up, he said that they almost never assisted anything.  His friend, whose family raised Shorthorn cattle for years, said the exact same thing.  My late neighbor said the same thing.  The Hatfield's (High Desert Ranch / Oregon County Beef) in Oregon preached the same thing. 

Keeping & using bulls that sire calving problems & keeping heifers/cows that require assistance is the problem... PERIOD.  If you breed calving problems out, you wont hardly ever have them.  If you let them hang around, you will almost always have them.
 

dori36

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TJ said:
frostback said:
So let me see if I got this straight? I can breed any lowline bull to a lowline heifer and I will be alright? You dont have bulls that would be better for heifers?

Dori, may know something that I don't, but honestly, almost nothing is ever discussed among Lowline breeders about what bulls work best for breeding to virgin, Lowline heifers, because all of them seem to work very well.  I've used Doc Holliday on 5 virgin fullblod heifers (two pretty small) & all 5 calved unassisted.  I bred Doc's 1/2 brother to a virgin Lowline heifer & she calved unassisted.  Cindy Jackson had bred Hank (45" & 1400 lbs.) & JR (45" 1350lbs.) to virgin, fullblood heifers & she's never assisted a calf.  I sold a virigin fullblood heifer & a bull (SC Rufus 45" 1250 lbs.) to a guy in South Carolina & the resulting calf was born, unassisted.  Tim Robinson in FL, has bred I don't know how many different fullblood bulls to virgin, Lowline heifers & he knows lots of breeders in the USA & Australia. He said he's never heard of a Lowline sired calf having to be assisted.  I'm sure an exception to the rule probably exisists, but Lowline females are ususally as good as the bulls about calving ease.       

BTW, Jerry Adamson was the one who bred Dr. Who to a FULLBLOOD Lowline female (mature - not a heifer).  It ended up being a really nice calf, too!   

I try not to use words like "always, never, ever, and any" - as in "any Lowline bull to any Lowine heifer"  etc.  However, in the breed birthweights aren't a topic of conversation nor is calving ease.  It's something of a given.  However, I did pull a Lowline heifer out of a fullblood Lowline cow  that had calved several times before because the calf was breech with its back legs forward.  Once the legs were straightened out, she popped right out.  It pays to check the cows no matter the breed.  However, I have no problem generalizing that Lowline bulls used on "regular sized" cows will give you a nice little low birthweight calf.  The bigger challenge with raising Lowlines and keeping the cows healthy and easy to breed and calve is not letting them get to fat.  Lowlines get fat on air!
 

knabe

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statistically speaking, it is impossible to pick for one extreme in a trait or two, and not have problems show up elsewhere.  balance is under appreciated. 

the only statistic i would select hard for is absence of input. 

when one moves out in standard deviations for traits, the more danger one is asking for.

the more is better mentality needs to meet counterintuitive more often.
 

chambero

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A whole lot of people that breed show cattle don't have any more calving trouble than anyone else - small time commercial producers included.

I once showed up at a pretty large "play" ranch here in the DFW work doing some work for my company.  I noticed they had a whole bunch (come to find out around 300) Brangus heifers in pens and a about a dozen "cowboys" that looked half dead.  I noticed something wasn't right and asked the foreman what was going on.  They had bought this bunch of heifers out of Florida and was literally having to pull every calf they were having.

So, like everything else, don't think every bad thing associated with the club calf business is unique to this end of it.

I'm sure your 160 lb calf was real, but a whole lot of the general statements about club calf breeders are just plain exagerations. 

I hope I don't find out the hard way this fall because I've used Heat Wave himself for the first time, but I've bred to his sons and lots of other older club calf bulls for over ten years and can honestly say we haven't had any more calving trouble than back in the days when we used hereford bulls on Angus cows.  That doesnt' mean no trouble, but it hasn't been a bit worse.  We don't babysit anything but heifers.  We lose 2-3 cows (almost always old ones) and maybe a dozen calves a year during calving for some reason or another.  We still wind up with around a 90% calf crop which if you read the published literature for well managed commercial ranches its about as good as it gets for anyone over the long term.
 

garybob

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145 pounds is inhumane, to both Cow and Calf. 160 pounds should never happen. 90 is optimum for bull calves to perform, without undue stress on the cow.

I agree with JIT, as Chambero called me a liar when I said my Dad bought a set of Black heifers from my Aunt's second husband, and they never grew & couldn't calve completely unassisted. I'm not advocating 50-pound dinks. Never said that, at all.

GB
 

red

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garybob said:
145 pounds is inhumane, to both Cow and Calf. 160 pounds should never happen. 90 is optimum for bull calves to perform, without undue stress on the cow.

I agree with JIT, as Chambero called me a liar when I said my Dad bought a set of Black heifers from my Aunt's second husband, and they never grew & couldn't calve completely unassisted. I'm not advocating 50-pound dinks. Never said that, at all.

GB

GB, he didn't call you a liar. He just said he's sure it was real. I hate it when people twist others words. I know you had a rough day at the dentist but sometimes we all need to take a deep breath before we post.
Still buds-

Red
 

knabe

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The 68-95-99.7% Rule

  All normal density curves satisfy the following property which is often referred to as the Empirical Rule.

68%
    of the observations fall within 1 standard deviation of the mean, that is, between and .
95%
    of the observations fall within 2 standard deviations of the mean, that is, between and .
99.7%
    of the observations fall within 3 standard deviations of the mean, that is, between and .

Thus, for a normal distribution, almost all values lie within 3 standard deviations of the mean.


curve bending animals are one's that violate a normal distibution, ie a 40lb birth weight and a 1500 lb yearling weight.  for them to do this, there must be a reason.  curve bending animals will lead to less uniformity in subsequent generations, hence, their best utility as terminal animals.

epd's are not clearly explained in how their numbers sit in a normal distribution.  some numbers would be adequate, ie scrotal and others if one knew what the normal distribution for a breed was.  continual selection of outliers must lead to a renormalization of all other traits at some point if all animals live, either through man directed selection or animal directed selection, ie death in both cases, just different animals selected.

it's pretty much impossible (not entirely impossible, ie the horse leo and other linebred lucky combo animals) to come up with these animals that can pass on a trait, while leaving all others alone without deleterious effects.  as such, i pretty much ignore all advertising that is geared to our weakness to respond to violating the normal distribution thinking we can beat the system.  i probably also won't breed to anything that isn't line bred or will not add to line breeding in my herd.  random combinations are too rare to how easy it is to make progress by line breeding, with culling of course.
 

CAB

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curve bending animals are one's that violate a normal distribution, ie a 40lb birth weight and a 1500 lb yearling weight.  for them to do this, there must be a reason.  curve bending animals will lead to less uniformity in subsequent generations, hence, their best utility as terminal animals.


  Knabe, that makes sense. Most of the infosous the last 2 to 3 decades has been to promote the " curve bending bulls".
 

reno1014

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You guys do your homework, before you breed your heifers/cows.  There are some really great bulls out there with the genetics
you desire from Heatwave but with a better probablility for successful calving.  If you look in the Lautner directory for 2008
there are a bunch of bulls that have Heatwave in the pedigree, but are a little less frightening on the calving side.  Although
in the book Heatwave only weighed 92 lbs!  Seems like everyone wants a Heatwave calf, so if your in business to raise club calves
then of course your supply and demand kicks in.  Thats just business.  If you dont have what people want they will shop
elsewhere, but at the same time if your killing your cows you will be out of business anyway.  
 

red

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reno1014 said:
You guys do your homework, before you breed your heifers/cows.  There are some really great bulls out there with the genetics
you desire from Heatwave but with a better probablility for successful calving.  If you look in the Lautner directory for 2008
there are a bunch of bulls that have Heatwave in the pedigree, but are a little less frightening on the calving side.  Although
in the book Heatwave only weighed 92 lbs!  Seems like everyone wants a Heatwave calf, so if your in business to raise club calves
then of course your supply and demand kicks in.  Thats just business.  If you dont have what people want they will shop
elsewhere, but at the same time if your killing your cows you will be out of business anyway.  

good point Reno. we've had luck w/ cherry bomb. all calves have been under 100 7 for us that's good.

Red
 

DLD

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Very well said, Knabe. (and Reno)

I think one of the most under-utilized tools we have available to us is pelvic measurement. We used to pelvic measure all of our heifers before breeding, and use some lower bw exotic bulls on the bigger measuring ones - it was pretty accurate, but it didn't work out so well when we neglected to measure and tried it by guessing according to frame size/weight. We knew from measuring them before that thickness does not neccessarily equal larger pelvic measurements - some of the heavier muscled stuff (for example Payback's, in our experience) have some of the smaller and worse shaped pelvis'.

I'll admit that we don't use it as much as we should anymore, but we use only proven lbw Angus bulls on our first calf heifers, and refuse to use any kind of bull on mature cows that we would expect to have to assisst them calving - for their sake and ours. I've never actually heard of using pelvic measurement on mature cows to help determine their ability to have heavier/harder (meaning stouter, coarser made, even if not heavier) calves, but I don't know why that wouldn't work?
 

reno1014

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Also guys dont forget your diet on your preg cows/heifers.  If they are fat your asking for it, especially in the last four months.
We make that mistake when we take our show heifers and get them "beautiful" then try breeding them after all the shows.
Some wont even breed for the first year.  If they do, usually they are too fat to begin with and if we continue to feed the
same trouble will likely follow.
 

shorthorns r us

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knabe said:
The 68-95-99.7% Rule

  All normal density curves satisfy the following property which is often referred to as the Empirical Rule.

68%
    of the observations fall within 1 standard deviation of the mean, that is, between and .
95%
    of the observations fall within 2 standard deviations of the mean, that is, between and .
99.7%
    of the observations fall within 3 standard deviations of the mean, that is, between and .

Thus, for a normal distribution, almost all values lie within 3 standard deviations of the mean.


curve bending animals are one's that violate a normal distibution, ie a 40lb birth weight and a 1500 lb yearling weight.  for them to do this, there must be a reason.  curve bending animals will lead to less uniformity in subsequent generations, hence, their best utility as terminal animals.

epd's are not clearly explained in how their numbers sit in a normal distribution.  some numbers would be adequate, ie scrotal and others if one knew what the normal distribution for a breed was.  continual selection of outliers must lead to a renormalization of all other traits at some point if all animals live, either through man directed selection or animal directed selection, ie death in both cases, just different animals selected.

it's pretty much impossible (not entirely impossible, ie the horse leo and other linebred lucky combo animals) to come up with these animals that can pass on a trait, while leaving all others alone without deleterious effects.  as such, i pretty much ignore all advertising that is geared to our weakness to respond to violating the normal distribution thinking we can beat the system.  i probably also won't breed to anything that isn't line bred or will not add to line breeding in my herd.  random combinations are too rare to how easy it is to make progress by line breeding, with culling of course.

would you prefer to see a z-score.
 

CAB

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Reno, It is fairly common knowledge that HW was quite a bit larger than the 92 lb listed BW. Give the breeder a call. He will tell you the truth. He is a  great guy. I used to pelvic measure yearling heifers, but I found calving problems did not make sense to me according to the info we were getting. I do believe JIT's statement that if you breed for small BWs all the time you will increase your calving difficulties. I've been looking for that HW son that will replace the old man with better milking ability in the heifers, but to no avail so far. Is anyone going to try the HW son Free & Clear? He is double clean and is out of an Epinal cow. Hoping for milk!!!!
 
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