Semen catalog

[shortyjock89]

I don't even think the Brigade was negative the whole time! ha

 

[Show Heifer]

To those that defended or tried to defend me and the other "brigade"....THANK YOU (clapping) (clapping) :-*
I take a bunch of heat and have been accused of being everything but white, female and free....and that is OK by me....if I reach even ONE person, the butt chewing will be well worth it. And I appreciate (or hope) that some folks get what I am trying to accomplish! Thank you, from my heart!
I get frustrated (and it shows sometimes) that some of the folks on the board claim "everyone" knows about TH and PHA so shut up already.... and that is just not true.
Joe Boy, excellent ideas about getting out the word. How about posters showing a TH or PHA calf and asking "have you seen one of these?? .......(explaining what TH and PHA are) 
And you could use the same approach I do when I sell my stock...."So have you heard of PHA and TH? They are genetic defects that ..(explain in graphic detail)......but I assure you all my angus animals are clean. And those that have any maine or shorthorn in them have been tested and are neg for both."  I even show pictures and that gets their attention!!!  I usually add "if you don't buy one of mine, PLEASE insist that any animal you buy is tested, and not just claimed to be free. If you have any questions about bloodlines that are questionable, please call me and I will do the best I can to answer them!"
Have I ever lost a sale due to the honesty factor? Nope. 
Have I received calls asking about certain bloodlines that I don't have from another breeder? Yep.
Does the maine breeder in my area like me? I'm guessing not....but I don't care for him either!

On another note, sign me up for those shirts!! How cool!! (clapping)
But, must admit it will be hard giving up my purple tube top!!! ;D

Great day....sunny and 75, nice breeze to dry the mud....

 

[DL]

To the PHA brigade (or as was stated elsewhere  the foaming at the mouth PHA patrol - to which I respond foaming is in the eye of the beholder!) (lol) (lol)

I find it incredibly interesting and amusing that people get so bent out of shape when full disclosure and honesty are discussed. What is so wrong about giving the status of bulls in a catalog? To me (as I said elsewhere) calling a bull like Draft Pick (for example) TH free or Improver PHA free (both of which are true) is a little like calling cotton candy fat free - it's the truth but not the whole truth. I just think the whole truth with these issues is the way to go. (I stole the cotton candy from cpubarn - full disclosure that's what it is all about!!). People interpret things based on the information they are given - lots of people gained weight eating "fat free" food - somehow they interpreted that to mean lower in calories (which of course ain't necessarily true).

The same thing with TH Free - people interpret that to mean free of genetic defects - which also ain't necessarily true. There are lots of TH Free bulls that are PHA carriers - in fact I read an ad last night that said TH free - the bull to use to clean up your THC cows - not mentioning that he is a PHA carrier. When does lack of disclosure become dishonesty and when does lack of disclosure become a liability issue? In Wisconsin if you knowingly sell a cow with Johne's disease you are liable (of course proving you knew can be a problem) - I think knowingly selling carrier semen or breeding stock without disclosing the status is dishonest and wrong. 

Do I care if people use carrier animals - no - I think it is stupid but this is the US - so breed your cows as you wish. Do I care that people are not being honest - yes, I think it is slimy. You can argue that it is good marketing - but that doesn't remove the slime! When you sell a  house you have to disclose the defects - why is it so hard for people to disclose the status of their cattle or semen.

Joe Boy - I have the same thoughts as you re commercial cattlemen - say they buy a carrier Maine bull, keep back some females, then buy a carrier Shortie bull - bingo and surprise! When I expressed these concerns they tried to laugh me out of the place!! People, including breeders and veterinarians and extension agents do not know about TH and PHA - we are much more informed than most.

It is a whole lot easier to make an informed decision when you have all the information at your fingertips. Seems to me that those who protest too much are actually trying to hide something......what is so wrong about trying to inform and educate?

Maybe on the back of the shirt should be a picture of  a PHA calf with the red circle and the line thru it - "Stamp out PHA - test your cows and bulls!" (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

I too will miss the purple tube top, but I miss A3 as well and we must go on! Have a great on and as they say keep on truckin'

ps Show Heifer - there are Maine breeders who think you are fab! (cow) DL

 

[genes]

Keep on truckin' girls...you are doing good even if some people don't see it that way.

As for the catalog, if someone doesn't list any animal's status, that is annoying.  If someone lists a bunch as free and puts no status on the rest, well then of course I will assume no results = carrier.  Unfortunately, not everyone will take that stand and they'll sell semen anyway.  If it's an auction, really all it takes is two uninformed people with fat enough wallets to make it not matter to the seller...sigh.

 

[chambero]

I think Lautner was just trying to save money on all of the ink that it would have required to indicate all of the positive ones ;D.

With those bulls, you do pretty much have to assume "guilty" unless proven innocent.  That being said, I do use a few of them trying to get steers.

I'll promise you that there aren't many in Texas that know a thing about this.  I mention it from time to time and get some crazy looks.  I've got kind of a funny story about it.  We sell pens of heifers every year at a commercial heifer sale .  We always sell pairs that we've tried to get bred back, but they aren't guaranteed (60 days bred back at best). 

This year, the buyer of one of our pens last year came by and wasn't happy with them.  He gave me an earful.  Apparently, only nine of ten were bred AI or by our cleanup bull when we sold them because the other one bred back immediately to his bull.  Frankly, we consider that good success on getting a first calf heifer bred back (these heifers calved only about 90-120 days earlier).  Two of the heifers for some reason slumped their calves in July (Six months after they left us.  Still not so good, but I have no idea why, probably due to extreme drought and heat if I had to guess and not enough to eat - but I don't know that for a fact; but no possibility of PHA). 

Of the 7 calves he wound up with from AI or our bulls, six were heifers.  I let him vent, tried to be nice, and then he proceeded to tell me how much better everything else in the barn was than hours.  Of course there were lots of heifers out of known TH or PHA bulls, some bred back to carrier bulls.  At this point I decide to start defending my cattle.  I informed he'd be **** lucky to have seven live cows left after trying to calve them out, let alone calves.  You could tell he didn't have a clue what I was talking about.  Then he tells me about his wonderful Power Plu bull he just bought.  I informed him he may have bought a bigger problem there than anything he might have had with us and I thought the old man was going to have a stroke right there.  I also told him he was **** lucky he bought our PHA-free cows (based on my educated guess) instead of some of the others ones peddled around.  I have no idea if he believed me or not, but he wasn't particularly happy.

The messenger has always been shot throughout history.  Oh the joy of being in the cattle business.

 

[Show Heifer]

Chambero: I wish I were a fly in that barn....isn't fun to see those "deer in the head lights look" when you fully explain PHA and TH!!! No greater joy!
Genes: Thank you....I will try to "keep truckin", but kinda like pounding my head into a concrete wall, then doing it again, again, again, then having someone call you all sorts of names not type-able!! But I will continue.....I have a thick skull and a big butt, which both work well for me....I can hit the wall a lot without any effects, and my big butt has a lot to chew on!!!! ;D
Like the shirt idea....
I also find it odd that a lawyer wouldn't understand the "full disclosure" thing....might have to ask him over our "truce steak" at the state fair....honestly think it would be interesting!
Better go hit the other board.....can't wait to read all those "flattering" words!!! 

 

[DL]

aw come on Show Heifer - it is marketing - you accentuate the positive - it really has nothing to do with full disclosure - you must live in Dream Land, after all some of you Iowa neighbors see appear to believe that disclosing the carrier status of various bovines is negative advertising - how about truth in advertising! (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (that is the crowds going wild with glee at the very thought of truth in advertising  ;D

 

[red]

I thought there were a lot of mixed comments at Ohio's Expo. The Maine sale people did a great job in following through w/ the test results. They announced the tests during the sale, had updated for those that were pending & many people had big letters promoting their non carrier cattle.

That said, a lot of rumors including mixed up lab tests (sorry Barrel Racer, just saying what was said), confusion on what a carrier actuall was, denial, & just good old gossip.  Had one guy say he was sending his bloodwork back in because it came up clean & he was just sure it had to be carriers. Had never had a affected animal but I think he thought maybe they were better if positive?

Most want to avoid the problems all together but many still will use the carrier bulls, especially the IW & Heatseeker lines to get that great animal. Spoke to a lot of supporters that din't want to hang the patrol out to dry. There were the ones that didn't agree w/ anything & I just let them vent.

It was a good example of how having the results really showed what the public wanted. I don't have all the figures yet but I can say that the non carriers brought quite a bit more over carriers w/ comparible animals.

Red

 

[Show Heifer]

Glad to see your back Red! Let us konw when you get the figures on the carrier vs non carrier sale results. Would be interesting!
Was the rumors that the results were WRONG? Mixed up? Or were they whining because the results were not what they wanted? (Sorry)
On another site, they are dicussing Texas Holdem Haeburger....whether he is a carrier or not. Some are saying the results are mis-reported BUT....Texas Holdem Haeburger is a THC and PHAF, and Texas Holdem Lautner is THF and PHAC. So is the mis-reporting really just a confusion on the names of the bulls and owners. (I got this info from SEK catalog-thanks Dr.Coover!)
Also glad to know a lynch mob hasn't formed yet for those nasty "patrol hens!!"

 

[red]

Remember this was just "here say". They claimed that some of the samples where getting different results back. Acted like it was a case of tainted sample. Not sure if it was the owners fault or if they were blaming lab. Took it they were trying to blame lab. But please understand this was just rumor not actual owner.
Hubby had to take a potty break, so he didn't get the last 20 figures. I'll try to sit down & do a little comparison on what I have. I just know that the $ amounts don't indicate that everyone feels that crying "wolf" is accurate.

Red

 

[DL]

That said, a lot of rumors including mixed up lab tests (sorry Barrel Racer, just saying what was said), confusion on what a carrier actually was, denial, & just good old gossip.  Had one guy say he was sending his bloodwork back in because it came up clean & he was just sure it had to be carriers. Had never had a affected animal but I think he thought maybe they were better if positive?

Barrel Racer may be off with her new baby horse and Dr B is basking on some island - so I will throw in my 2 cents

IMHO - these test (TH and PHA) about as close to 100% accurate as one can get. People who don't believe that simply don't understand either the genetics or the test - like they say on some TV show the DNA don't lie.

Of course there is the possibility of errors - despite some views otherwise we are all human! However, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of errors are on the part of the submitter.  BR told me that people repeatedly submit the same sample (and pay for it !) and of course get the same results! Go figure - it isn't like your cholesterol that changes over time - it is what it is and it ain't gonna change.

People with carriers seemed to do lot of whining about what their cattle brought.... (cow)

 

[Joe Boy]

People with Sexual transmitted diseases have denied how they came in contact with the problem and said there must be a mix up......  the genes don't lie.  I really feel that industry does not want the problem and the only ones that are really going to continue to breed for it are not in the busy of raising cattle for consumption but for shows.

I loved the poster idea.

I was glad to see about the prices for carriers.

 

[Joe Boy]

I am writing my local congressman and asking him what the state of Texas has on the books to compare with what is in the books in Kansas......  I am informing him of TH and PHA.  He should know a little since his daughters used to show against my kids...... and I know his former cattle buddies know.....  Our former county agent was really close to him and he is the one who rented a very well known carrier bull for clean up......  I have several friends who one day could have a carrier bull, totally unknown to them and I do not want them to suffer because someone had to sell genetically defective bulls......without disclosure....  Which I think if and when it surfaces will ruin the market for even honorable people...