Shorthorn bull

[Endless Meadows]

I am interested in hearing what all of you have to say.  What whorthorn bull would you consider the best given the following conditions:

NO TRUMP or DOUBLE STUFF
TH and PHA Free
Moderate framed (under 6.5)
Sound
Muscular
Lots of rib
maternally oriented

 

[nck21]

Jake's Proud Jazz

 

[cattlechick]

Ditto, JPJ

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I would try JPJ, but you might want to watch for soundness issues a little bit.  Other than that I would say go for it.

 

[showman ne]

i hesitate to recommend jpj based on soundness and performance. you're asking the million dollar question. there are bulls that fit parts of your wants but not all. i'd say ace of diamonds fits better for soundness, but i've seen some bigger framed ones out of him too. for the most part either would probably work for you. just watch the front ends of the cows you would use jpj on he can straighten up a shoulder and if they are what u would consider remotely moderate or smaller don't expect calves that get very big

 

[Doc]

Jake's Proud Jazz

I haven't seen any producing dtrs, so I don't know how maternal he is. I know I'm fixing to get crucified, but here goes. As much as he has been used, I find it ironic that the oldest hfr at L'ville was born on 1/1/09. He might have his place , but I just don't think he is the saviour.

 

[kane1598]

They are too small and too straight beyond that point, but he will make stout, hairy babies that come easy.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

All calving ease-Panama red,Elbees Wymore Bull.Alm Chiller, ArsuluOsage,JSF Capiche,FSFRodeos Hope, Byland Dazzler, GB Daybreak Express etc etc O0

 

[linnettejane]

lakeside has some bulls that would fit that bill...

 

[justintime]

I would suggest that there are several bulls in Western Canada, that would fit this description. All have semen available in the US. They are Muridale Buster, Muridale Buster 2nd, Saskvalley Pioneer 126P and Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M. All these bulls are thick, moderate, well muscled, TH and PHA free, very sound structured, and complete out crosses to Trump, Double Stuff, and JPJ. There are probably more, but these are the ones that come quickly to mind. All will add guts, muscle and soundness to their offspring. 

 

[JoeBnTN]

I tend to agree with Grant - when we've used him Muridale Buster has sure done what you're asking a bull to do.

I think there's also some bulls at Waukaru that might work and M-Bar might have a bull or two that you may have never heard of that would work.  Want to step way out - find semen on a bull called JR Legacy 23G.  Moderate framed (Although he won't drop frame size on big cows), great daughters, calving ease, doability - just a very practical bull for lots of situations.

I'd like to think in a year or two - when Grant and I get an adequate number of calves on the ground - that our Leader bull will do many of the things you ask for. The one I'm not sure of is the really big rib cage - he's sure more than adequate but I don't know if he'll really change many.  But if soundness is at the top of your list - I'm not sure we've ever bred on that was as agile and sound moving.

Good luck in your search - there are cattle like you're looking for, they just aren't always easy to find.

 

[shortdawg]

I am interested in hearing what all of you have to say.  What whorthorn bull would you consider the best given the following conditions:

NO TRUMP or DOUBLE STUFF
TH and PHA Free
Moderate framed (under 6.5)
Sound
Muscular
Lots of rib
maternally oriented

I would say JPJ could do all that but the last one. Others have mentioned structure problems with him  but I've had none with mine. I've seen as many of his calves as anybody and I just don't see it. Seen him as well and it sure don't hurt him to walk.

 

[IVORYACRES]

S Bonanza {frame ?}

 

[coyote]

S Bonanza {frame ?}

56 inches

 

[Durham]

I saw a bull today that I sold this spring. I have sold a lot of Shorthorn bulls, and finally have found one that looks like he may well be the next step in the direction the breed needs to go to remain viable in the beef industry. I have not been excited about a shorthorn bull for at least 8 years or so. But today I found a good one. He was on grass with 6 other mature bulls, had bred 2 sets of cows for the man that bought him, and looked absolutely solid. I told the guy to get a picture of him quick. His name is JR Revelation 161U. He goes back to a bull called Byland Legacy on the dams side, the sire of the bull JR Legacy 23G referred to earlier. Certainly an outcross pedigree to any cattle outside of the Northwest. I hope I can get some pictures to share. The first calves are due Feb. '10.

 

[ELBEE]

      <

 

[r.n.reed]

Jake's Proud Jazz      2 crosses of Double Stuff's sire close up,2x enticer a dash of Rodeo Drive, a whole lot of Dividend,Not much of an outcross.

 

[knabe]

i think people get to crossed up worrying about relatedness when you should be really worried about phenotype and if sire is prepotent for his desirable characteristics that fit your breeding goals.  too many full sibs out there that differ.  yes there are ones out there that are similar, but if one wants to build for the future, and accumulate a phenotype, you are not going to get it easier by constantly outcrossing the pedigree while incrossing the phenotype.  it's probably easier  to breed type to type if pedigree is the same as the recombination patterns will be more predictable.  it's pretty hard to increase the percentage of an individual without careful linebreeding that exceeds the initial cross offspring with something other than a sire daughter mating.  the obvious thing to watch for is concentration of phenotype faults.  ie, if something doesn't have the faults of the bull you are interested in, it's debatable whether the odds are increased for segregation of the faults if you bred the bull to something unrelated in the first place.  not real sure why people don't see that concentrating even half sibs is difficult to match the original contribution of the makeup of an individual.

offspring of two half sibs would have the same contribution in the offspring as a full sire offspring.
two full sibs offspring would have same ratio as themselves, just recombined differently and biased towards phenotype of individuals, subject to recombination.
it's just a way essentially to create a new fullblood.

the problem of course is that every linebred animal is not worth keeping and must be under probably more stringent culling practices, which mostly probably doesn't happen too much anymore as numbers required to do this exceeds most breeders capacity or curiosity.

 

[r.n.reed]

Excellent Knabe,The only reason for a true outcross bull is either more sales opportunities or a change in direction for a breeding program.If the latter is the case a person may want to consider starting over to speed the process.What people need to find is the Trump or DS influenced bull that will linebreed with the highest percentage of keepers

 

[knabe]

What people need to find is the Trump or DS influenced bull that will linebreed with the highest percentage of keepers

remember, you must first go through a heavy culling phase where you will have the lowest percentage keepers, which, sadly, most won't do as the culls are just too "valuable".

since no one really test crosses their bulls on say 30 daughters, the allure of linebreeding is mostly unverified except through better cows where his impact won't be so easily visible.

It's probably best to test cross some bulls on the more than one set of contemporary set of cows for a decent evaluation with differing "qualities".