Shorthorn Cow - Full Sib to Waco - Opinions?

[OKshorthorn]

I wanted to get some opinions on this cow. She is a full sib to Waco, Sonny X Diamond Helena Dottie 12H.

We bought some Captain Mark 27C semen in 2011 right after buying this cow as a heifer thinking we would flush her with him. She is a big cow, the biggest on our place, and I have never personally seen Captain Mark, how big is he? Would he work? I thought the genetics would be interesting.

What other ways would you consider flushing her? We will be flushing a couple times over the summer before she gets bred this fall.

I've posted about this cow before, but I think this is the first mature picture that I've put on here. We almost lost her last summer, vet told us to send her to the sale barn. Never really found out what happened or what was wrong, just babied her, kept up with some meds and she pulled out of it.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Breeding-My 1st choice-Canadian-HC Bluebookne of the best looking stoutest but balanced Canadians (Hes got the trademark rib and profile)he goes back to Goldwalk 57th and real deep ribbed Canadian cows and will moderate BWs which JMO-Im sure she needs-and hes thick-His breeding on the Sonny (back to Rodeo and Fastrack-more old Canadian or should I say CRAZY canadian) and a great cow for her dam is taylor made-and variations of EnticerxRodeo have been proven for 25 years. I really the looks of the HC free spirit bull-but dont like the BWS in his pedigree on her. My other choice for guts, rib, and calving ease would be Red Reward,Red Demand, Sull Payday etc,and shes big enough you"d be justrite:GKB Justrite that is-whos a paternal brother to the matriarch behind the "Rewards". Hot Commodity has produced some really thick,deep,cool, hiefers that Ive seen winning some shows too. O0

 

[OH Breeder]

IN my little experience with Waco and his offspring, he tends to put some frame in his cattle and they are little flatter made. If this were my female, I would look for a bull that would add some rib and softness. Add some flesh and maybe a tick more broody body type. I think it is great we have so many types of shorthorns in the breed right now you breed what works for you. I like Gizmo on females that need rib and flesh. Captain Obvious makes them deep and moderate as any. If you are after the show ring appeal I think you have to stack the genetics that are winning. They seem to look for a different type. Nice female just a few things in bull selection for myself personally I would look for to match her up with.
My list would probably look little different than some. I like what the red angus and some of the red newer blood maines are doing for the breed. Love the temperment of my shorthorn cows and their mothering ability but also like what you can achieve by adding some of those additional genetics. Just a thought. Probabaly wasn't much help.  :-\

 

[OKshorthorn]

Thanks for the comments gentlemen!

 

[jaimiediamond]

What are your goals for the flush?  I think you could have a lot of fun

If she were my cow my goal would be to produce brood matrons so with that in mind I would first flush her to your initial thought with Captain Mark.  He is the ultimate cow maker in our experience. Captain Mark was a bull way ahead of his time. I would be aiming for brood cows with softness in that cross and tidy udders.  Another bull I would have seriously considered and if I was doing 2 flushes would be all over would be line breeding to River Ridge Elite (sire of Helena Dottie) this bull Northern Legend 3N.    Legend has been used extensively in Belmore Shorthorns Australia and is a multiple trait leader for calving ease, BW, and gestation to name a few.  For me both bulls sire outstanding daughters that become excellent and attractive cows, but more importantly they also sire excellent herd sires. 

This year and last year Legend daughters and granddaughters joined our ET programs we have been very pleased with how they have worked.  Captain Mark daughters have consistently been flushed in our and Horseshoecreek Farms programs for years

Good luck and have fun!

 

[RyanChandler]

I would flush 27C to one of the smaller cows on your place, not the biggest.  His 2 most noted daughters, Prairie lane Sparkle and New Beginnings Elsie's Jade are both ton + cows.   

 

[Jacob B]

Bloodstone, maybe TM Gus

 

[mbigelow]

Since the cow is a 2011 what has she been mated to and how did that work out?  I am not a huge fan of flushing cows to unproven mating I like to know what I or my customers will be getting.  What are your goals or expectations from the resulting calves?  I have many bulls that I would recommend just depends on what type of cattle you want.

 

[carl]

In my opinion the cow is not donor material. She's got that long headed, hard doing look. I know that there are a lot of cows out there that look similar but she is a type that we try and stay away from. Having said that I have no idea what kind of production record she has but it has been my experience that most cattle at some point start to look a lot like their parents so I would not consider flushing her.

 

[justintime]

I would flush 27C to one of the smaller cows on your place, not the biggest.  His 2 most noted daughters, Prairie lane Sparkle and New Beginnings Elsie's Jade are both ton + cows. 

Sorry, but Sparkle and Elsie's Jade are not ton plus cows. In their prime they may have been 1800 lbs tops. Both these cows are very moderate framed but have tremendous thickness and overall mass. I have had several Captain Mark 27C daughters and all of them have been made the same. Thick cows with massive bodies. They also seem to be cows that have longevity as well. Sparkle just returned from the ET center and is now bred to Kamalori Meat Packer ( Aussie sire) and she will be 16 next January. Elsie's Jade is presently at the ET center and turned 16 a couple months ago. Both cows look half their ages, and both are still extremely easy fleshing. They get their weight from their overall mass not from their frame score.

 

[RyanChandler]

The first picture shows Sparkle on the day we weaned a big heifer calf off her, and we weighed her that same day and she was 1760 lbs. The second picture was taken the next year in late October and she was weighed about 2 weeks previous to this, and she weighed 1850 lbs.

The third cow is New Beginnings Elsie's Jade. She is a very moderate framed cow, but would weigh over 1800 lb on an average day.

Ok, so they're around ~1800lbs. I would think a cow that's 1760lb in her last stage of lactation could easily exceed 2000lbs 'in her prime.'

IMO, it's kind of a mute point either way as that much 'overall mass' is unsustainable in Redwine's environment.

I like the bull.  Remember, I own a double bred 27C. Many of the characteristics of these cattle I like very much.  That being said, to be useful in our environment, they need to be reduced in scale to a more sustainable size.   

 

[jaimiediamond]

The first picture shows Sparkle on the day we weaned a big heifer calf off her, and we weighed her that same day and she was 1760 lbs. The second picture was taken the next year in late October and she was weighed about 2 weeks previous to this, and she weighed 1850 lbs.

The third cow is New Beginnings Elsie's Jade. She is a very moderate framed cow, but would weigh over 1800 lb on an average day.

Ok, so they're around ~1800lbs. I would think a cow that's 1760lb in her last stage of lactation could easily exceed 2000lbs 'in her prime.'

IMO, it's kind of a mute point either way as that much 'overall mass' is unsustainable in Redwine's environment.

I like the bull.  Remember, I own a double bred 27C. Many of the characteristics of these cattle I like very much.  That being said, to be useful in our environment, they need to be reduced in scale to a more sustainable size. 

Different environments determine different characteristics in cattle one would select.  We reduced frame score and mature cow size by using Diamond Prophecy 21P (daughters are maturing at 1200lbs), but with the market demands as they are we are slowly pushing for 1400 lb cows and more importantly fast maturing steers with excellent carcass.  This may or may not be sustainable in your environment. Most of our herd has Prophecy, Legend, and Captain Mark.  That is one of the reasons I had asked Red Wine's goals and also why I mentioned what I would do in his position.

I have found MOST of the Captain Mark daughters to be moderate in frame but the depth and thickness as well as fleshing ability have worked outstandingly in our program. 

 

[Willow Springs]

I saw 27C and his dam quite a bit when he was a calf and yearling. I absolutely loved his mother, but she was actually a little small for her day. Very good udder, moderate framed, but wide and deep. 27C was the same and was too small framed to really make a go in the show ring.

Dan & Jill offered to sell him to me as a weaned calf for $1400; I think they were giving me a bit of a break as I was a junior member. In those days I knew what I liked (the type of 27C and his dam), and then there was what won in the show ring. Being in my late teens and liking the show ring deal I declined as he wasn't the right style. I didn't stay in the Shorthorns long after that, but still always regretted not buying him as he probably would have given me the type I wanted in the pasture.

Anyway, I would mirror what Jamie and Grant are saying; I don't think he will give you big frame, but the body mass is there to make some weight. Even then I don't think 1800 lb cows would be the norm from him.

 

[frostback]

I have 2 Captain Mark daughters. One a purebred and one a half blood. Neither are close to ton cows. Both are easy fleshing on only dry land pasture and hay in the winter. Both are doing great jobs. I would use him like you had planned on. I have seen many other daughters and if I was doing the purebred thing harder, he would be my go to for making cows. I still use him on my clubbies and hope for daughters.

 

[OH Breeder]

In my opinion the cow is not donor material. She's got that long headed, hard doing look. I know that there are a lot of cows out there that look similar but she is a type that we try and stay away from. Having said that I have no idea what kind of production record she has but it has been my experience that most cattle at some point start to look a lot like their parents so I would not consider flushing her.

Flush part is up to you, but I am huge on head shape on my animals. I have only flushed one cow because she meets our criteria and has had some of the best calves that sell well(as well as her genetics and where she came from). Finallly got a couple daughters out of her. Hoping to replicate her phenotype.

Older gentleman always told me to look at head shape as an indicator of how an animal will finish and feed. It you have a long skinny head it usually take longer to fill and finish. The shorter compact head usually are easier feeding quicker to finish. Its kind of like comparing Jake's Proud Jazz and Trump. The cattle are completely different in what they produce. The jazz cattle for us have been earlier maturing and quicker to finish moderate scale. The trump bred shorthorns have been much larger and take a bit longer to finish out. Blending the two lines worked well seem to balance things out. Sull Asset was one of the many brothers that didn't breen like his pedigree should have. He is probably the most clubby of those genetics from what we ahve seen.
You have to do what fits in your enviroment and what will meet your needs. West is much different there where we are. What's available as feed stuffs and pasture etc. I know you know all this stuff. JMO

 

[justintime]

In my opinion the cow is not donor material. She's got that long headed, hard doing look. I know that there are a lot of cows out there that look similar but she is a type that we try and stay away from. Having said that I have no idea what kind of production record she has but it has been my experience that most cattle at some point start to look a lot like their parents so I would not consider flushing her.

Flush part is up to you, but I am huge on head shape on my animals. I have only flushed one cow because she meets our criteria and has had some of the best calves that sell well(as well as her genetics and where she came from). Finallly got a couple daughters out of her. Hoping to replicate her phenotype.

Older gentleman always told me to look at head shape as an indicator of how an animal will finish and feed. It you have a long skinny head it usually take longer to fill and finish. The shorter compact head usually are easier feeding quicker to finish. Its kind of like comparing Jake's Proud Jazz and Trump. The cattle are completely different in what they produce. The jazz cattle for us have been earlier maturing and quicker to finish moderate scale. The trump bred shorthorns have been much larger and take a bit longer to finish out. Blending the two lines worked well seem to balance things out. Sull Asset was one of the many brothers that didn't breen like his pedigree should have. He is probably the most clubby of those genetics from what we ahve seen.
You have to do what fits in your enviroment and what will meet your needs. West is much different there where we are. What's available as feed stuffs and pasture etc. I know you know all this stuff. JMO

OH Breeder, I am in full agreement on your comments on head shape. I am a firm believer that you can tell as much from a female's head than any other part of her body. There is a well known sale manager in these parts who used to always say, " just send me a picture of the animal's heads that you are thinking of putting in the sale. I will tell you which ones that will be in the sale and the ones that aren't". That may be going a bit far, but it is oftentimes a pretty close indication of overall quality and fertility.  I would not go as far as saying that some breed lines are bad headed. I had a Trump cow who had a super head and she was a super producer. I have a grand daughter of Trump here now that is the same. She has a super head and is a super producing female. I have seen good and bad headed females from almost every line. It definitely should be a consideration especially when selecting replacements and your donors. Never select a potential donor by her pedigree alone. I don't care who she is related to, if she doesn't cut the mustard herself, you will probably be wasting your money.

 

[beebe]

You guys are in good company.  Bert Hanson said the same thing.

 

[aj]

IMO......the Shorthorn breed needs to have bulls with more masculinity......more crest to their neck. I think this is partly due to the fact that most of them are later maturing. I had a couple couple of composite herd bulls standing next to each other the other day. It was night and day. The higher % Red Angus bull was a lot crestier necked.

 

[librarian]

For those, like myself, who need to remind themselves as to who Bert Hanson was.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/shadybrook-goliath-68th/

Seems like 27C would be a good choice anywhere, anytime, anycow.

 

[justintime]

For those, like myself, who need to remind themselves as to who Bert Hanson was.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/shadybrook-goliath-68th/

Seems like 27C would be a good choice anywhere, anytime, anycow.

In my opinion, Diamond Captain Mark 27C, was a true beef sire. His sons were thick, well muscled, masculine and sound. His daughters were moderate framed tanks that were still fertile and easy fleshing. I would not use him to increase milk production in your cow herd, however, I never saw a 27C daughter that did not bring in a fat calf in the fall. He was definitely a bull that was truly ahead of his time and oftentimes people forget about some of these bulls from the past.
In regards to bulls from the past, I see some breeders who will buy any older semen they find. There are bulls from past decades that deserve to be used again, like 27C, but there are many others that were bad choices when they were alive and are bad choices to use today. If you are going to use older genetics, make sure you study your lessons before using it.
Another bull I consider worthy of being used today from the past is Four Point Major. I just used Massive Major in a flush 3 days ago, for a breeder in Idaho who had purchased a flush in a great grand daughter of 27C from me. He got 18 grade 1 embryos and 5 grade 2 embryos ( and 0 unfertilized) from Massive Major semen that was froze in 1970.(45 years ago)