Shorthorn Discussion

[librarian]

The suggestion that the industry needs an outcross seems like a practical way to approach changing the game.
Angus are good cattle, and there are many persons raising Angus that are at odds with AAA.  5BarX has lots of discussions just like the "sire line" discussion concurrent with this one, only the focus is Angus.
Pitching a Shorthorn outcross to the segment of commercial Angus producers that share common goals with commercial Shorthorn producers would not be that complicated if it was done by website.  Everyone has already gone through the learning curve of using the internet and linking to other sources online, posting video and photographs, using the online pedigree resources and exchanging ideas with others who think "outside the loop".
A website something like WORKING SHORTHORNS could serve such a purpose and be inexpensive to create.
If the industry needs an outcross, we can offer one ourselves, something along the lines of SUSTAINABLE GENETICS.
http://www.sustainablegenetics.com/index.html
The promotion is not so much selling semen, or even selling young bulls or replacements, but selling the idea of the superior performance of the Shorthorn or Durham cross. The right type of Shorthorn genetics then sell themselves.
The F1 is predictable and marketable as such.   
Market Shorthorn genetics that will succeed in the feedlot as Durham Reds, Durham Blacks and Durham Tans.. No different from
Durham Black could have traction immediately.  Wrangling with people who select for show success is not going to get a positive message out that there is "Another Shorthorn"...one that works.

 

[ty378]

The ASA had the MARC data several years ago that should have been all the proof the commercial cattleman needed.  Our neighbor ran about 100 purebred Herefords and 25 purebred Simmentals.  His Hereford fieldman stopped in and my neighbor, after digesting the MARC data, asked the fieldman to give him one good reason why he shouldn't turn a Shorthorn bull in with all his cows.  He really couldn't come up with one.  Public perception due to large advertising budgets goes a long way.  Our local locker owner greatly prefers our Shorthorn beef carcasses to the Angus and Angus cross ones he gets.  Before he moved to town, he took every calf I didn't want to do anything special with and fed them out himself to resell.  This black hide thing has been pounded into people's heads for so long, I think even the Angus people believe it.  I don't think it does any good to run down your fellow Shorthorn producers on this website.  If you don't agree with what they do, fine.  Be thankful you have all the answers.  If you have what the industry needs, then promote it and get it out there.  Somebody thinks they need to be solid red.  Some think they need to weigh 60 pounds at birth.  Someone else thinks they can't look like show cattle.  The list goes on and on.  There is not and cannot be a one size fits all Shorthorn, or any breed for that matter.  There is a Shorthorn bull out there that can add so much to a commercial herd.  The easy way out is to just go buy a black bull.  I talked to a gjy that works at our local farm supply store.  He is getting some calves now, Angus breeding.  He said they have been selecting for calving ease for several generations and their calves average between 55 and 60 pounds.  He says he understands that they're giving up many pounds of performance.  Is that what everybody wants?  I don't want 120 pounds calves, but I sure don't like to sell 400 pound feeder calves or wait until they're a year old to weigh 650.  Somewhere there's a happy medium.  Reasonable birth weights, adequate performance, etc.  There's a Shorthorn bull out there that will work.


Ok it's clear you are a tad misguided, black has not been pounded into everyone's heads, the Sims , lims and maines have seen how the angus can improve there breed, due to the fact that angus have such a huge gene pool to choose from, there are some good horns but there are way more good black cattle. I have had first calf heifers have 50-60 pounds those calves are up and sucking within minutes by fall they are the same size as all the other calves, those first calf heifers cycle 3-6 weeks after, so yes bw matters and that is one thing shorthorns lack

 

[ty378]

Also I should say I sold my stockers this fall they avg 1300 bucks no creep no nothing I sold my shorthorns they were bigger at birth and lighter by weaning and they avg 750 bucks

 

[RyanChandler]

Also I should say I sold my stockers this fall they avg 1300 bucks no creep no nothing I sold my shorthorns they were bigger at birth and lighter by weaning and they avg 750 bucks

Liar

 

[ty378]

How much are you willing to wager on this xbar, this could be interesting.

 

[RedBulls]

Develop a line of cows with really good teeth.......it would improve stayability by three years......you cound have dental epds.

I'm just getting caught up on the discussion again. There are some good posts! When I saw this one of AJ's, I just had to dig this picture up for him. This was taken this past summer. this is a 1997 model cow that would still be here on the place if cow dentures were still available. At first, I thought it was a joke when a very reliable source told me that they actually used to successfully put dentures in toothless but otherwise sound cows in order to give them a couple more years of production. With the price of calves back in the '70's, it wasn't cost effective, so never became a booming business.
Anyway, this cow had a very productive life and successfully raised 14 calves. Even her last calf had no trouble finding a teat on his own. Other than having no teeth, this old gal was perfectly sound when she went to town last fall. We did get 5 embryos from her on 1 flush attempt. We put in two. I'm pretty certain at least one took from the look of the recip. Hoping for a heifer to replace this dam.

 

[knabe]

But what about selling a thc bull?

 

[cowman 52]

Have some thought and use a knife on him!

 

[RedBulls]

Been reading this with some interest.  I would expect I am like several others, own a few shorthorns, like the cattle, the breed, would like to see the higher ups get their --- together.

A lot of us came to the breed from a junior program,  trying to let the kids get into the business, maybe get enough to get them  through school,  and maybe keep the cows around.
The th/ph deal started the problems, had to keep that in mind first off.  Second, we tried to breed cattle that could survive in the real world, calve on time, raise a calf, have something you might could market. That got shot to heck when we tried to keep the heifers out of that mating, no milk, heifers that lost their calf to a number of things, and then wouldn't breed back. Threw the semen away and went to the old semen in the bottom of the tank, and came up with functional cows with out the pains.
I remember well when the maine's were brought in, the going comment was " without them the breed will die" now you want to cross in reds, blacks, Greens???
The show ring and the money "breeders" have drove this into the ground and what for, sell a donor, a championp, a cow that only survives in a donor operation, she dang sure can't live anywhere else.
Blow the mess up, get rid of the genetic problems, get back to cattle that great great grandpa trailed out here behind a wagon, she was dang sure tough enough to raise a calf and a couple of kids too. The cattle had some carcass capabilities that didn't scare buyers to the point that they give 10 cents or more less and put them in with a set of angus steers and when they hit the rail, no one has a clue what they are.
But no, you can bet Omaha will make some noise, keep a CEO till retirement, go to their board meeting, have a big time, and gritch that the blacks bring more money.

Cowman 52, you really confirmed one of my long-held suspicions when it comes to "what happens to heifers after the Show". I'm sure that there are exceptions, (as there always are) but can you imagine where the breed might be if a majority of these show heifers performed well in the pasture after their retirement?! I would bet that your experience has been more common than not. Before I get bashed by those who show: Again, I am not against cattle shows or people showing cattle. I am against non-functional cattle being shown successfully and then failing miserably where it really matters. In 2008, we donated a heifer to the NILE Merit Heifer Program. The girl that got her was an outstanding young lady who won the Grand Champion Merit Heifer competition the next fall. She comes from a ranching family. She told me during one of her written reports that "I didn't even know what a Shorthorn was, now I LOVE them!" Her dad must agree, as they've bought a couple more heifers since. She says her original heifer may be the best cow on the place.

"Houston-We have a problem"

 

[RedBulls]

But what about selling a thc bull?

Well, Knabe- I found out first hand this past fall that it sure can happen! I traded a yearling bull to a Canadian friend who had him tested after breeding season along with some of his other cattle. I was stunned when he notified me that his new bull had come back "THC". This bull's sire is tested clean, and there was nothing I could see in the dam's (Reg. #x4092300) pedigree that should have made her a carrier. I purchased the bulls maternal grand dam from a local breeder when he retired several years ago. It sure drove home the importance of testing to me! A couple of other distantly related cows came back clean and I was sure glad to see that! 

 

[RyanChandler]

That's an interesting pedigree on the cow.  It goes back as far as any I've seen. I wonder if all cows in the breed were tested what the results would be?

 

[BTDT]

But what about selling a thc bull?

Well, Knabe- I found out first hand this past fall that it sure can happen! I traded a yearling bull to a Canadian friend who had him tested after breeding season along with some of his other cattle. I was stunned when he notified me that his new bull had come back "THC". This bull's sire is tested clean, and there was nothing I could see in the dam's (Reg. #x4092300) pedigree that should have made her a carrier. I purchased the bulls maternal grand dam from a local breeder when he retired several years ago. It sure drove home the importance of testing to me! A couple of other distantly related cows came back clean and I was sure glad to see that!

Which is EXACTLY the reason I have been a propionate of testing every single animal that is registered. In theory, EVERY animal SOLD would be tested but that is fairy land!  Pedigrees have known to be "wrong" and so going by pedigree alone is not sufficient.

Judge, admitting a problem is the first step, but even an alcoholic that admits they have a drinking problem is still an alcoholic until they take DIRECT and DECISIVE steps to remedy the problem.  I have a problem with eating too much bacon. I admit it but if I am still shoving bacon in my mouth when I am admitting it, it really doesn't help the problem now does it?

I am going out on a limb and say the shorthorns do have a "cattle problem" but like a lot of animals, their bigger issue is a human issue.

 

[aj]

Selecting for stayability is probably selecting for genetically superior teeth. You have human lines that have good teeth and bad teeth genetically. Salebarns here mouth cows and if they are called 7 years or older they are pretty much considered done. I would think that teeth have been under natural selection pressure for 100 years or so.......unless you jut et on et on et on et.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

<party>

Maybe cows should be set up for annual teeth treatments. We could have dentists for cows. This would create jobs for Obama. ALSO........the BIG thing. Obama has set up these agencies across the states(there is one set for Colorado)......to study how global warming will effect agriculture and there practices. Maybe the government will collect a tax on all black cattle. Because red reflects heat better. Get the government involved.......red cattle kick arse........deal done. <party> <party> (lol)

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Whoever breeds Shorthorns to Holstiens in large numbers will probably have some of the most uniform;best grading UGLY steers in the feedlot. It would almost be like having 500 full sibs (lol) O0

 

[librarian]

Sadly, Holstein crosses probably are going to take over the feedlots. 
I've thought about that cattle addiction thing and concluded that many aspects of breeding can be pretty similar to having a gambling addiction.  It's not gambling if there is no risk. Genetic defects just up the ante.
So recovery would mean not using risky cattle any more.  There is so much money involved in risky cattle that an association wide intervention is probably not going to happen. There is also a whole industry of genetic testing that is making a fortune on the Angus mess.  Pfizer/Zooetis is the real winner in all this.
I don't know anything about the politics of this, but I do know that sometimes you have to let the addict go their own way and do what works for you and your cattle business.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Sadly, Holstein crosses probably are going to take over the feedlots. 
I've thought about that cattle addiction thing and concluded that many aspects of breeding can be pretty similar to having a gambling addiction.  It's not gambling if there is no risk. Genetic defects just up the ante.
So recovery would mean not using risky cattle any more.  There is so much money involved in risky cattle that an association wide intervention is probably not going to happen. There is also a whole industry of genetic testing that is making a fortune on the Angus mess.  Pfizer/Zooetis is the real winner in all this.
I don't know anything about the politics of this, but I do know that sometimes you have to let the addict go their own way and do what works for you and your cattle business.//////PAINT EM BLACK-THEYLL WIN THE CERTIFIED ANGUS BEEF CONTEST-oh-I forgot-they already have O0

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

This thread has to many words did not read!
Do not care!
<rock>

 

[BTDT]

This thread has to many words did not read!
Do not care!
<rock>

This is actually one of the best threads and discussions that have been on SP. 
I would venture to guess that if you are truly "old world shortie", the problem of the breed might be that too many shortie breeders did NOT read all the words and also do not care.

librarian - You are very correct. Only the person with the problem can correct the issue. And sometimes, it is best to let them fail and hit rock bottom.

 

[aj]

Was that "Joseph Goebbels"?