Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.

[sue]

The sire test ran in Iowa during the Bolze/Hammett era included : Byland Mission, GFS Red Cloud, Waukauru Carnegie and a couple more. The data was reported after weaning but I am not sure if the kill data was ever reported?  Similar to the steer  data that was lost after the Executive Sec changed.  Best of luck to the participants.

 

[wiseguy]

That's what I'm getting at. The project design really only verifies what is already known- what universities do best. So it is just advertising for marketing certain sires- that work for certain things. Will it really sell beef or create a market?
CAB is a business model that is attached to a branded end product. That requires venture capital far beyond $2000 per participant. I don't think the money is well spent unless whoever owns the cows and raises the calves gets a premium for the best ones. 

Librarian don't we need to have proof that we have a premium product before we try and market it? What good is it to promote something, with nothing to back it up but opinion and word of mouth. If we are going to have relevance of any kind in the beef industry we must have facts and science to back it up. That is why the conversion and intake side of this trial is so important in my opinion. Yes we are not a terminal breed, but we still harvest our cattle.

 

[Duncraggan]

Didn't see you had started a new tread.
Its not just the amount of data its the quality as well. In many herds possibly not yours I see this as a major issue. Small contempory groups with no variation in genetics or data value to make comparisons against. I think that is where the advantage would be.

The cost is in line with progeny tests in Australia. Both the Angus and Shorthorn tests cost $2500. The shorthorn test is limited to 6 sires and the angus 40 a year. If this is the first year they probably did have some sires lined up. Wouldn't be much point doing all the ground work to set up the trial and it fall over because no one nominates their sires.

I think their requirement for bulls that have been used some is good. You want bulls that are going to be used in a number of herds and have a impact in the breed. A problem with the durham project in Australia where they used a dozen or so sires each year is that too many of the nominated bulls never did anything in the breed or their home herd.

Good point here in that having reference sires with high accuracy, that have been used heavily across many herds, will have a massive influence across the data of many herds, thus making the data more meaningful. There is no use in putting a sire that is not freely available to the common market on the test as the results would have limited impact.
I think, initially, that 'bang for your buck' is of paramount importance in the initial stages!

I'm going to further this point! We need bulls that have been successful recently and that we know exactly what they are going to do. They have to be really careful to make sure they have low birthweight bulls in this sire test also because that is the future of our breed. We must continue to bring down our birth weights to the 85 lb. area consistently. That is why I recommended Kaper 4508, Task Force, and Coalpit Creek Leader 6th. I think we need to be looking at our proven accuracy low birth weight and calving ease bulls because we should already know that our low BW/CE bulls should also have the maternal traits, the marbling, and adequate growth potential. My concern is that we may end up with results that show no improvement on ribeye, no improvement on marbling, and actually make birthweights too high to be acceptable. That would be an all out catastrophe...

Potential 'curve bender' type bulls need to be identified here and included for reference.

 

[librarian]

"Librarian don't we need to have proof that we have a premium product before we try and market it? What good is it to promote something, with nothing to back it up but opinion and word of mouth. "
Do out just like CAB- t he brand only sells Choice and better, red white or roan.

 

[JTM]

First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.

Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?

 

[wiseguy]

First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.

Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?

As I stated earlier the talks started mid May and we had to let U of I know within 30-45 days. If you received a letter I consider that contact. No specific Bulls were asked to join, just the owners of such Bulls. Once again the ASA reserves the right to not accept a bull, so if he doesn't fit the program he doesn't get it. If you have suggestions contact a board member or Montie.

Second, Dr. Shike is an outstanding cattleman with a solid cattle background in Angus genetics. I don't think that he miss spoke when he made his comment. Especially when they had used high growth Simmental and Charolais sires.

Finally, do you really think all of the people that recieved emails are misrepresenting their cattle and Bws? Is everyone a liar? I hold a lot of respect for these people and trust their word. I understand this deal needs to be right, but just because it's not how you would do it doesn't make it wrong. Put Renegade in and put your money is where your mouth is! Not being rude. I'm being serious!

 

[JTM]

First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.

Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?

As I stated earlier the talks started mid May and we had to let U of I know within 30-45 days. If you received a letter I consider that contact. No specific Bulls were asked to join, just the owners of such Bulls. Once again the ASA reserves the right to not accept a bull, so if he doesn't fit the program he doesn't get it. If you have suggestions contact a board member or Montie.

Second, Dr. Shike is an outstanding cattleman with a solid cattle background in Angus genetics. I don't think that he miss spoke when he made his comment. Especially when they had used high growth Simmental and Charolais sires.

Finally, do you really think all of the people that recieved emails are misrepresenting their cattle and Bws? Is everyone a liar? I hold a lot of respect for these people and trust their word. I understand this deal needs to be right, but just because it's not how you would do it doesn't make it wrong. Put Renegade in and put your money is where your mouth is! Not being rude. I'm being serious!

Wes, I'm merely communicating here. I'm not just complaining to whine about stuff. I want to improve things. I did not even come close to calling any of those breeders liars and that is not how my comment should have been read. I was referring to the breed as a whole. The AVERAGE BW EPD would take into account all birth weight contemporary groups and scores. Only the liars themselves know who they are but this new system will begin to show who they are also. A sire test like this can do the same thing. This deal does need to be right, you are correct, so in the process we need to keep open to the voices of the breeders and not get too defensive when people have other ideas and ask questions as to why things are being done a certain way. This deal has been rushed and a select few are at the forefront. I applaud you for calling me out and telling me to put my money where my mouth is.  (thumbsup) Question is: If my bull did well would that really open a new trend or market in our breed? Only one way to find out...

 

[Medium Rare]

I'd like to join those who thanked you for getting this ball rolling Wiseguy. It might not be perfect, too costly for some, or even far from what some people had in mind, but it is getting the foot in the door to some current unbiased comparisons and the data should be a huge asset to the system. Are you putting Imperative in the test?

I've been sharing some shorthorn pics in front of hard core commercial guys, mostly black, and I think people might be surprised how they are starting to react. It's still a cold crowd and the animals absolutely have to be good animals, but it feels like it's starting to soften ever so slightly. A little more data never hurts when working towards encouraging some of them to try a red bull.

I hope some breeders go ahead and give it a shot.

 

[wiseguy]

Josh I wasn't trying to be defensive. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm simply stating that based on the integrity of the firms asked, and the data they submit to this point I see no relivance in what " others" are submitting. Why as a breeder would you pay and submit semen on a bull that you know won't perform because you have lied about the data. More importantly why send semen in on a bull and get no calves or minimal calves because they died at birth? I think that in its self sorts out the problem Bulls.

I'm sorry that this wasn't open to everyone. But there is time still to get in. After all it is all over the Internet, and apparently was sent out in the newsletter. It is rushed. I agree.

Finally, I want to apologize if I was rude. I feel as though the Association in the time allotted has done as good a job as they could. Yes others opinions are great, but remember everyone has one.
I do feel the ASA has the best goal, and that is that ALL sires do well.

 

[JTM]

Josh I wasn't trying to be defensive. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm simply stating that based on the integrity of the firms asked, and the data they submit to this point I see no relivance in what " others" are submitting. Why as a breeder would you pay and submit semen on a bull that you know won't perform because you have lied about the data. More importantly why send semen in on a bull and get no calves or minimal calves because they died at birth? I think that in its self sorts out the problem Bulls.

I'm sorry that this wasn't open to everyone. But there is time still to get in. After all it is all over the Internet, and apparently was sent out in the newsletter. It is rushed. I agree.

Finally, I want to apologize if I was rude. I feel as though the Association in the time allotted has done as good a job as they could. Yes others opinions are great, but remember everyone has one.
I do feel the ASA has the best goal, and that is that ALL sires do well.

Wes, I think you make a good point that the people who will be submitting their bull are confident in what they are submitting. I have met most of them personally and I totally agree with your assessment of integrity. It will be really interesting to see how this plays out for sure!

 

[turning grass into beef]

I don't know all of the details.  I only know what I have read here on steer planet and what was sent out in the email.  From what I understand this sound like a fantastic opportunity for the breed.  We would gladly apply to take part in this study if we had semen available from a bull that meets the criteria.  We have not drawn a bull for many years because we rarely A.I. anything (we are planning to change that this year).  I wish we had semen available on some of our walking bulls that we are using this year and we would definitely apply to join in the study.  I feel that the cost is acceptable for the data that will be generated.
Thank you Wes for getting the ball rolling on something like this.  This is exactly what this breed needs; to generate real world data.

 

[wiseguy]

I don't know all of the details.  I only know what I have read here on steer planet and what was sent out in the email.  From what I understand this sound like a fantastic opportunity for the breed.  We would gladly apply to take part in this study if we had semen available from a bull that meets the criteria.  We have not drawn a bull for many years because we rarely A.I. anything (we are planning to change that this year).  I wish we had semen available on some of our walking bulls that we are using this year and we would definitely apply to join in the study.  I feel that the cost is acceptable for the data that will be generated.
Thank you Wes for getting the ball rolling on something like this.  This is exactly what this breed needs; to generate real world data.

Thanks Barry. I know at least one Saskvalley bull will be represented. It was also my suggestion for this to be a joint venture between the ASA and Canadian association, but with time restrictions that was not an option. Maybe if a second year of trials takes place it is something to consider.

 

[librarian]

I nominate Jaxon.

 

[turning grass into beef]

I don't know all of the details.  I only know what I have read here on steer planet and what was sent out in the email.  From what I understand this sound like a fantastic opportunity for the breed.  We would gladly apply to take part in this study if we had semen available from a bull that meets the criteria.  We have not drawn a bull for many years because we rarely A.I. anything (we are planning to change that this year).  I wish we had semen available on some of our walking bulls that we are using this year and we would definitely apply to join in the study.  I feel that the cost is acceptable for the data that will be generated.
Thank you Wes for getting the ball rolling on something like this.  This is exactly what this breed needs; to generate real world data.

Thanks Barry. I know at least one Saskvalley bull will be represented. It was also my suggestion for this to be a joint venture between the ASA and Canadian association, but with time restrictions that was not an option. Maybe if a second year of trials takes place it is something to consider.

If a second year of trials take place and there is enough notice count us in!

 

[Endless Meadows]

Does anyone know what bulls are being used?

 

[Okotoks]

I think the association should be commended for getting this started! The breeders that take advantage of this will learn a lot about their bulls and it will help the breed with accuracy's and getting to the next level.
Here is a recent update on the Morrisons program in Great Britain, that makes two countries, Australia and the UK where premiums are paid for shorthorn beef!

New native breeds scheme announced
Beef Shorthorn has been given a massive boost thanks to a new scheme focusing on Britain’s traditional native breeds launched by Wm Morrison Supermarkets and their subsidiary, Woodhead Brothers. An additional 16,000 native breed cattle per year will be required to supply the supermarket’s three Woodhead Bros abattoirs, up almost 10% on current throughput.

The scheme is open to all British native breeds and their crosses, but singles out the Beef Shorthorn for a special premium. “Beef Shorthorns and their crosses will receive 20p/kg in total over Woodhead’s base price, or up to £75 head, while other eligible native breed cattle will receive a 10p/kg premium,” says Morrison’s farm operations manager, Andrew Loftus.

“The special premium for Beef Shorthorns reflects the supermarket chain’s long-standing commitment to the Beef Shorthorn breed on its own farm at Dumfries House in Scotland, where it has developed a new feeding regime specifically to enhance the inherent eating quality of the breed and produce a premium product.”

Beef Shorthorn BullsBeef Shorthorn Society secretary, Frank Milnes comments: “Approximately 27,000 Beef Shorthorn and Beef Shorthorn cross calves registered by BCMS in 2010. This record number demonstrates how the commercial value of the breed is more widely recognised than ever before. A major attraction of the breed has been the ability to produce functional suckler cows: now that we have a premium scheme for Beef Shorthorn beef even more farmers will be encouraged to use the Beef Shorthorn bull in their commercial suckler herds. It’s a win win situation.”

Morrisons have formed an exclusive partnership with the Beef Shorthorn Society which will promote the use of registered and DNA recorded Beef Shorthorn bulls in the UK suckler herd. Under the scheme farmers, including those who already supply Woodheads will need to apply for approval at least 100 days before they send their first native breed cattle to one of the firm’s three abattoirs in Lancashire, Lincolnshire and Aberdeenshire. They must be farm assured and agree to finish cattle on a specially developed cereal-based diet.

Eligible cattle – steer or heifers, must weigh between 260kg and 380kg CCW. Bulls and OTMS cattle are not eligible. The firm has developed a special carcass grid for the scheme which includes O+ cattle within the target specification.

 

[Hopster1000]

Morrisons have went a step further more recently.

"The Morrisons Traditional Beef Scheme will now pay a 30ppkg premium for its cornerstone breed, the Beef Shorthorn – an increase from 20ppkg.

The increased premium, which was announced at the Great Yorkshire Show, will further help to boost numbers of Beef Shorthorn cattle.

Latest figures from the British Cattle Movement Service (BCMS) have shown an 18% rise in registrations of Beef Shorthorn calves – growth which Morrisons Agriculture Manager Andrew Loftus says is supported by the scheme.

He said: “The Beef Shorthorn is now Britain’s fastest growing native breed and accounts for between 30% and 50% of our traditional breeds range.

“Offering a payment premium for the Beef Shorthorn has undoubtedly encouraged farmers to invest in this breed and reflects Morrisons’ longstanding commitment to the Beef Shorthorn breed.”

Morrisons’ Traditional Beef Scheme has grown significantly since it was launched in September 2011. Traditional cattle are killed at all three Woodheads abattoirs and native breeds account for about 10% of the total cattle kill (about 360 cattle each week).

The scheme is open to all native bred beef cattle, offering a 10ppkg premium for all native bred cattle and 30ppkg for Beef Shorthorns.

Shorthorns currently average a carcass weight of 334kg at 22 months old, with 60% at R grades or better (steer and heifer average).

Another success story for the scheme, which has further underlined Morrisons’ support of the breed, is that a Beef Shorthorn bull bred on the Morrisons Farm at Dumfries House has recently entered stud with Cogent.

Rothesay Eildon ranks in the top 5% of the breed for both terminal and selfreplacing indexes.

Andrew said: “We’re advocating his use to our commercial beef producers to breed replacement females.

“The breed is well-known for producing long-living, productive females and now the Morrisons Traditional Beef Scheme gives a profitable use for the steers.” "


A couple of other links on the subject are below. The first link reports interesting details about bulls for lease. The second link reports about Morrisons hoping to eventually increase shorthorn to 100% of their native beef. The third link is to the bull mentioned in the above article.

http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/beef-shorthorn-scheme-offers-price-premium-farmers.htm

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/business/farming/farming-news/145567/morrisons-in-search-for-more-shorthorn-beef/

http://www.cogentuk.com/bulls/signature-beef/detail.php?id=268

 

[Hopster1000]

Latest press release from Morrisons in the UK.


"After six years of working in partnership with the Beef Shorthorn Society, Morrisons is excited to announce the launch of a Shorthorn Beef brand under their ‘Best’ range in selected Morrisons stores by September.

The product launch will exclusively make Morrisons the only UK supermarket to retail Shorthorn Beef and highlights its long standing commitment to the breed. Tom Richardson, Category Director for Fresh Meat, Morrisons said: “We are proud to be launching our new Shorthorn Beef range which we believe delivers unequalled eating quality, the Shorthorn beef is carefully managed from field to fork and processed in our own meat facilities meaning that we assess quality at every stage.”

The Beef Shorthorn sired cattle are finished for the last 90 days on a specific balanced diet. Once processed, the choice steak cuts are gently dry aged, which complements the breed’s inherent eating quality and produces a steak with great favour and tenderness.

Joe Mannion, Head of Livestock Procurement expressed that: “As we grow the Beef Shorthorn scheme we are actively seeking new farmers to join our producer group, to register to become part of the group please visit our website: www.morrisons-farming.com.”

Beef Shorthorn Society chief executive, Frank Milnes commented: “We are thrilled to witness what is a landmark - the launch of the Shorthorn Beef brand, which will help to connect farming with consumers. We look forward to continuing the journey working with Morrisons to help increase the supply of Shorthorn cattle and make available this very high quality product.” "

 

[Medium Rare]

Thought this might be worth bringing back to the top. The next round of sire testing is open for entry.

There are also some interesting results within the reported bw contemporary groups. The effects of Patent's 101 and 110 ratios while carrying .86 bw accuracy could be interesting.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think you'll need a wakaru bull in there too. Orion would be good.///// AMEN-the most documented consistent Shorthorns of ALL,for many years. O0 O0