Shorthorn weaning weights.

[librarian]

JTM, I, also have wondered about this with Dover cows and Haumont cows. They are very wide, seen from above- hip to hip, but the side view is not very wedge shaped. The length of forerib and lung capacity in the front changes the geometry. I can only think it's the result of environmental selection where milk production is an expensive trade off with rebreeding. Bison cows, again, do not fit the reverse wedge model.
I was at a talk one time where the forest service was trying to work with Native Americans on timber management and the Indians had a diagram of interacting forces that, instead of being a static geometric shape ( it was sort of an octagon) the shapes changed- stretched and bent- relative to the interacting forces. Nature is like that and when we select according to nature's rules, out neat pictures seem cartoonish and oversimplified.
...The forest service wasn't too interested in the Native understanding of ecology...too many variables for their equations.
This cow is, arguably, the best bullmaker for functional traits in the breed today.
we have to consider where she came from and what it takes to stay in the herd there.
What were Cooksley and Dover selecting for and what role did the environment play? Hhow did that pressure bend the "ideal shape"?

 

[librarian]

I got curious about Waukaru T Marshall that is in top and bottom of 189th.

 

[oakview]

Lots of Milking Shorthorns in that pedigree.  You'd have a hard time getting a cow that looks like the one you've got pictured out of Tea for the Tillerman.  He was not a "moderate" bull.  Plenty of photos of him in the old Waukaru ads.  I get a little leery when people use blanket statements that all the cows from certain breeders were wonderful.  I've seen plenty of narrow, narrow cattle from some of the breeders mentioned.  Their good ones might have been great and those that bred on are the ones we remember.  But they can't all be gems.  I might have one or two even in my herd that isn't a national champion.

 

[shortyjock89]

Lots and lots of looking through rose tinted glasses and projecting going on. How much influence can a single animal 9 generations back really have...

 

[librarian]

It can't. Just looking at what Waukaru used at one time...didn't say it was good or bad.

 

[RyanChandler]

This is not an opinion or a theory: masculine wedge shaped bulls produce femine reverse wedge shaped females. Look no further than the Shoshone bred cattle pictured below. The DRC influence cattle I have are wedge shaped and have a much more maternal phenotype than the 244MU cow pictured.  From the cows I've seen, her more-gender-neutral phenotype isn't representative of DRC cattle as a whole.  Spend some time looking at the cows on Ralph Larson's website. Though larger in size, you'll see these DRC influenced cows have a more angular maternal design which I think better represents functional reproductivity.

 

[oakview]

Unless my eyes are going bad, if you remove the udder, that cow is every bit as deep in the front as she is in the rear, probably deeper in front, just like the bull pictured.  I think the wedge shape deal is in the eyes of the beholder, though I probably won't convince some of you.  I like chocolate ice cream, some people like vanilla.  That's just the way it is.  You can't make me eat vanilla. 

 

[librarian]

It's probable that Ralph got first choice.

 

[Duncraggan]

Unless my eyes are going bad, if you remove the udder, that cow is every bit as deep in the front as she is in the rear, probably deeper in front, just like the bull pictured.  I think the wedge shape deal is in the eyes of the beholder, though I probably won't convince some of you.  I like chocolate ice cream, some people like vanilla.  That's just the way it is.  You can't make me eat vanilla.

When last did you have your eyes tested oakview? JMO, but there is a distinct difference in the genders' 'wedge' shapes.

 

[oakview]

I took a straight edge from the front end of that cow to the flank, not the udder, and I don't get any reverse wedge shape.  Maybe I just look at cattle differently. 

 

[Duncraggan]

I think we are missing the elephant in the room here, we are talking about mature cattle, both sexes!

Show cattle, both sexes, and steers, seem to be fairly androgenous up to two years.

 

[JTM]

This whole discussion has made me start looking at my cows for the wedge shape and especially my Dover influenced and my Renegade daughters. They don't show the reverse wedge shape like you are saying XBAR. My cows are very deep in the front and they are not heavy milkers so they don't fill in the flank area with a huge udder like some of the heavy milking cows may.
I'm going to post a few pics of my cows, not for anyone to say they are mongrels or they aren't feminine enough but to show what I'm talking about.
Basically what you have here is a combination of the Eionmor Marquis 86G bull and Dover Ranch. The 306E cow is sired by A&T Renegade out of a SimAngus cow and the other two are Marquis daughters.

 

[knabe]

Why not Buster 14K?

where does one get buster semen?

 

[knabe]

The pic below is Renegade's granddam DRC 244MU which is also A&T Captain Obvious' dam.

tried to pick a hole in that cow and she doesn't have any other than the bodily function ones.


i like her overall what i call pinnochio structure where the animal almost looks like it is suspended by strings it's so balanced and square and symmetrical.  too bad she's not a maine.

 

[aj]

I think the wedge shaped deal.......real deep flanked.......then adequate depth leading into the shoulder.......is currently a eye appealing style. It may not be do able. I have seen coats and hats with club calf advertising on them that go to that extreme. I know a local guy who fits who has a tattoo of that kind of shape. I personally think that a cow that is a little shorter bodied and deep bodied might have better stayability......I can't prove it. And this would be on a sawdust and sand kind of a diet. I think x bar makes a lot of sense with the sex.......reverse scenario. Bolz had kids that went to school here in Brewster a couple years. I remember him talking about wedge shapes but I wasn't paying attention. I always wondered about the shape of some of the Kit Pharo style cattle. He also used the Ohlde's Anchor bull and offspring in his program. I think they are deeper and shorter cattle and maybe wider topped but I don't know about the wedge shape. One summer Pharo had cattle in an ajoining pasture.......and I will say one thing. The little bull calves were MASCULINE headed at a early age. You could tell the sex of the calf from a quarter mile away.

 

[librarian]

If Bonsmas' book, Man Must Measure, was easier to get, we could read up on why he promoted the wedge idea.
However, the main thing is to measure reproductive regularity and select against irregularity. We all have to apply fitness strategies to our own cattle in our own situation and make decisions based on those observations- not just skip observation and do what the gurus say.
Back to performance, and breeding more performance into Shorthorns or any cattle,  I think this is a good article.
THE FAILURE OF THE ANIMAL-PERFORMANCE MINDSET
http://beefproducer.com/blogs-failure-animal-performance-mindset-11066

And this companion Article, which points out the hard lessons I am leaning in Nebraska where pasture rent is $400/ pair and up for 5 months...all because of prairie grassland recently lost to corn and its ripple effect.
http://beefproducer.com/blogs-cow-performance-wrong-goal-11037

 

[Duncraggan]

I think the wedge shaped deal.......real deep flanked.......then adequate depth leading into the shoulder.......is currently a eye appealing style. It may not be do able. I have seen coats and hats with club calf advertising on them that go to that extreme. I know a local guy who fits who has a tattoo of that kind of shape. I personally think that a cow that is a little shorter bodied and deep bodied might have better stayability......I can't prove it. And this would be on a sawdust and sand kind of a diet. I think x bar makes a lot of sense with the sex.......reverse scenario. Bolz had kids that went to school here in Brewster a couple years. I remember him talking about wedge shapes but I wasn't paying attention. I always wondered about the shape of some of the Kit Pharo style cattle. He also used the Ohlde's Anchor bull and offspring in his program. I think they are deeper and shorter cattle and maybe wider topped but I don't know about the wedge shape. One summer Pharo had cattle in an ajoining pasture.......and I will say one thing. The little bull calves were MASCULINE headed at a early age. You could tell the sex of the calf from a quarter mile away.

From what I understand, Pharo Cattle Company select for easy doing, moderate framed cattle that pay the bills!
I think that would result in the culling of androgynous bull calves as they would be too late maturing and would be 'hard-doing'. They run a grass-fed operation, even the bulls are raised on grass until sale.
I think we could all learn a lot from this operation. JMO
He seems to be a proponent of the 'profit per acre, not per calf' philosophy. It makes a lot of sense to me!

 

[librarian]

Since we've been taking about Dover so much, I saw semen on this kind of neat bull, A&T Lone Ranger- Red Cloud 7026 x Dover cow. Don't know any more about him...
http://www.vaithcattle.com/Pages/PastHerdsires.aspx

 

[JTM]

Since we've been taking about Dover so much, I saw semen on this kind of neat bull, A&T Lone Ranger- Red Cloud 7026 x Dover cow. Don't know any more about him...
http://www.vaithcattle.com/Pages/PastHerdsires.aspx

He is a full sib to A&T Open Range 601S who is a very good bull. I would have to ask Aaron about this bull specifically. The Dover cow he is out of is DRC 4108TM. I have a daughter of hers which is the roan cow on the left in this picture of three of my cows. She is now 9 years old and doing great. She is a bit larger than I want them but I'll blame that on the sire which has Vortec in there. I would think Lone Ranger would be some good genetics to infuse a shorthorn herd with.
Here is a link to an old Shorthorn sire book with bulls in it that has Open range in it and a pic of the 4108 Dover cow.
http://www.shorthorncountry.net/catalogs/ai_directory.pdf

 

[librarian]

Thanks JTM, I enjoyed looking at the 2008-2009 catalog. Good old "Dover" was in there with a picture I had never seen.
.