Shoshone Angus

[Aussie]

One of the larger Angus breeders in our state who was fairly much a closed herd gave up registrations because his home grown bulls could not get very high EBV's. I don't know how your EPDs work but here if you don't use AI you figures are very poor. Kind of makes a mockery of that breeding bulls for your own environment. After 5 years of no registrations he decided to re register his cattle and even though he knew his breeding they all had to go back to the appendix register. This and the fact there is a big cost to register cattle for sometimes it feels like very little return I can see Shoshone point. He has the name to sell cattle without all the red tape. Unfortunately we lesser known studs can not afford that luxury.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I ahve heard about the Dover Ranch. I understand but it is a sad deal. Talk about the breed losing out on this one. That place actually breeds their cows to their bulls from what I can gather and are successful at it. How about that. No need to always bring in new "hot" bulls. No looking for the bull who will fix the last bulls problems. Just the same direction year after year. No bull from yesteryear, no AI bulls, no 3,000 lb giant nor a 1,500 lb dink. They are not trying to be something for everyone. I have to respect that.
How did the Dover bull from YlazyY get registered? To bad his nuts froze off. I would have liked to see him proven out some more.

 

[garybob]

Ok I get that it will not work in many parts of the States.Here is a picture of our spring and yes I do count hay and silage as grass as we usually grow to much for the cattle to handle. Most full time farmers in this area with the average cow herd size 300 cows work this way. Guess we are lucky with our weather

Dang! Tasmania looks like the Ozarks, but without the Endophyte!

Purty!

GB

 

[garybob]

full disclosure, he's the guy who does the keeny'scorner forum.  it's also why there is deafening silence.

sure wish he would make some f1's with jim lents

Anyone know if Jim Lents book is available anywhere?

I want to cross a Jim Lents Hereford bull on a set of Dover, Haumont, or Sneed Shorthorn cows, then take the daughters to a Shoshone Angus bull.

Then, I want to cross those with a HooDoo Charolais bull.

Some Elbee breeding thrown in there, too, maybe.

GB

 

[Freddy]

This is off subject a little , but I noticed in Garybob  post the name Haumont  an wondered where this cow family originatedd ...

 

[sue]

It's just my opinion but I would guess many successful seedstock operations will drop papers in the next decade.

I can flush 5 PB shorthorn or angus - make 140 eggs and paper maybe 20. Sell the other 100  as composites ( never said I was flushing all of them back to a PB)  for premium in a bull sale- offer DNA carcass etc. Why does a buyer need a paper when u just layed out the whole genetic profile in front of them?  Mark my words your PB field rep will be replaced with Igenity . "do I want a paper of a carcass profile" $$

Really good post . But like I keep saying "you dont need a paper to sell black". Super great marketing behind black.

 

[r.n.reed]

Freddy there are 9 or 10 cow families that make up the Haumont herd, the same cow families they started with in the 1920's.This herd would be the Shoshone's of the Shorthorn breed except that they still register.I started with a Helianthus from Haumonts in 1973.They are still in my herd. Hopefully I've attached a picture of a 4 1/2 mo bull calf out of one of my Helianthus cows,no creep and not much grass since the first of August.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

full disclosure, he's the guy who does the keeny'scorner forum.  it's also why there is deafening silence.

sure wish he would make some f1's with jim lents

Anyone know if Jim Lents book is available anywhere?

I want to cross a Jim Lents Hereford bull on a set of Dover, Haumont, or Sneed Shorthorn cows, then take the daughters to a Shoshone Angus bull.






Then, I want to cross those with a HooDoo Charolais bull.

Some Elbee breeding thrown in there, too, maybe.

GB

We have champagne taste on a beer budget my friend. I like your thoughts. Someday buddy, someday, we will get there.

 

[BadgerFan]

It's just my opinion but I would guess many successful seedstock operations will drop papers in the next decade.

I can flush 5 PB shorthorn or angus - make 140 eggs and paper maybe 20. Sell the other 100  as composites ( never said I was flushing all of them back to a PB)  for premium in a bull sale- offer DNA carcass etc. Why does a buyer need a paper when u just layed out the whole genetic profile in front of them?  Mark my words your PB field rep will be replaced with Igenity . "do I want a paper of a carcass profile" $$

if you market your composites with DNA info, keep in mind that some will be genetic winners and some will be genetic losers.  DNA info does not make cattle better, only more proven.  Not all will be marketed at a premium.  I'm not saying don't do it, just saying know what your potentially getting into.

 

[kfacres]

a pedigree is only as accurate as the beholder, not matter what the circumstances.

 

[Freddy]

I DON'T really believe what you said about the papers being as good as the breeder, some of the breeds you can use a certain AI sire in some breeds an were finding out now there are cattle in those pedigrees that shouldn't be,  an the breeder himself had nothing to do with it ...  ALso on a lot of those pedigrees they put EPDS  an the value of those are fading fast,  an all the breed assoc. are now wanting to sell you DNA  that has very little proof also ...There was a older breeder that told me a saying about 40 years ago, I was young an at the time just thought it was cute ,as I have got older the value of what it said got more meaning to it ...    I  had to change one word in it ,  ""It takes  a lot of Bull Manure to grease the wheels of Progress ...."

 

[Okotoks]

The thing I don't understand is why it takes so much to get the Dover cattle recogonized and yet GLENELL IMF B90 reg. #x4158702 an Australian bull was put in the ASA herdbook at 100%. In the third generation only 5 of 8 ancestors are known. I don't know if it's better but in Canada they are registered as though they were "born and bred " in Canada thus he would be about 62.5%. Maybe there is documentation not shown on the ASA website. (The Canadian book doesn't recognize Maines either which is why animals with Maine blood are such a low percentage up here)

 

[r.n.reed]

Some phenominal epd profiles have been created by mixing high growth and low birth strains.I would think the same would be true with DNA profiles and it is evident with phenotypes as well.I think the pedigree would  be very valuable to discern the reliability of an animal to reliably pass on those traits.My thoughts are a Shoshone would be more reliable than a GardinerxOhldexWYE combo pack if both animals had similar DNA profiles.

 

[RedBulls]

I ahve heard about the Dover Ranch. I understand but it is a sad deal. Talk about the breed losing out on this one. That place actually breeds their cows to their bulls from what I can gather and are successful at it. How about that. No need to always bring in new "hot" bulls. No looking for the bull who will fix the last bulls problems. Just the same direction year after year. No bull from yesteryear, no AI bulls, no 3,000 lb giant nor a 1,500 lb dink. They are not trying to be something for everyone. I have to respect that.
How did the Dover bull from YlazyY get registered? To bad his nuts froze off. I would have liked to see him proven out some more.

The bull DRC 101VM "Dover" recovered from his frozen testicles and is servicing cows for Chad Ennis (Shady Maple) in Indiana. Semen is available again. The reason I was able to get him registered when I bought him as a calf is due to the fact that Dover Sindelar keeps such  great records as to pedigrees and performance. If I was more computer savvy, I would post some pictures of his daughters and granddaughters. I am using a son that I'm really pleased with out of  Diamond Baroness 21J, A 12 year old cow bred by Okotoks.  He has demonstrated great calving ease, and good performance as did his sire.

 

[garybob]

This is off subject a little , but I noticed in Garybob   post the name Haumont  an wondered where this cow family originatedd ...

Haumont Ranch, Broken Bow, NE. Run and managed by Mrs Mary Bell Cooksley ( still getting it done, at the young age of 90). Haumont refers to the ranch started in the 1800's, and added to it, a registered Shorthorn herd by her father, Frank J. Haumont. There are bout a dozen or so cow families, and not only are they intensely linebred, but they get a Lepto shot and a kick in the rear, combined with ruthless culling.
There are no favorites.

SP Citizen, "r.n. reed", had a Haumont bull that he used and sold to Broken Oak, Chris Carlson. If you want to see how those cattle look, you can go to Chris's website.

GB

 

[Aussie]

Some phenominal epd profiles have been created by mixing high growth and low birth strains.I would think the same would be true with DNA profiles and it is evident with phenotypes as well.I think the pedigree would  be very valuable to discern the reliability of an animal to reliably pass on those traits.My thoughts are a Shoshone would be more reliable than a GardinerxOhldexWYE combo pack if both animals had similar DNA profiles.

IMO and I think many seed stock producers would agree pedigree and cow family comes before epds and DNA. When I get a sale catalogue pedigrees are what I look at first then go and look at the animals then epds. How ever most commercial guys I know do the opposite or sometimes only epds. I have walked through many herds of commercial herds of bulls seen some with bad feet, big shoulder or plain ugly pointed them out to be told yes but he has great figures. As seed stock producers isn't up to us to look after great cow family's and try to keep a happy medium between this and figures.

 

[farwest]

If we would all start buying shoshone angus bulls, use shoshone bulls on top of shoshone daughters, we would end up with an extremely predictable product.  A moderate efficient black hided fat steer with more than enough marbling, with the heifer mates being efficient enough to roam the hills of the midwest and be able to breed back in their environment.  I believe this.  This would move us more towards where the hog industry has gone.  A more predictable product.  One huge problem..  Way too many cattle not owned from conception to kill.  These bulls will never fly with alot of cattleman who have been using bulls who are 20 pounds over breed average for weaning weight instead of 16 under such as these shoshone bulls.  They use these bulls and  sell calves off the cows in october weighting 50 to 100 lbs light the banker will have the final say.There are different markets , different times of the year for cattle, that make different frame scores and age of cattle fit into..jmo.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I ahve heard about the Dover Ranch. I understand but it is a sad deal. Talk about the breed losing out on this one. That place actually breeds their cows to their bulls from what I can gather and are successful at it. How about that. No need to always bring in new "hot" bulls. No looking for the bull who will fix the last bulls problems. Just the same direction year after year. No bull from yesteryear, no AI bulls, no 3,000 lb giant nor a 1,500 lb dink. They are not trying to be something for everyone. I have to respect that.
How did the Dover bull from YlazyY get registered? To bad his nuts froze off. I would have liked to see him proven out some more.

The bull DRC 101VM "Dover" recovered from his frozen testicles and is servicing cows for Chad Ennis (Shady Maple) in Indiana. Semen is available again. The reason I was able to get him registered when I bought him as a calf is due to the fact that Dover Sindelar keeps such  great records as to pedigrees and performance. If I was more computer savvy, I would post some pictures of his daughters and granddaughters. I am using a son that I'm really pleased with out of  Diamond Baroness 21J, A 12 year old cow bred by Okotoks.  He has demonstrated great calving ease, and good performance as did his sire.

Glad to hear he is on the mend and back at work.

 

[Okotoks]

I ahve heard about the Dover Ranch. I understand but it is a sad deal. Talk about the breed losing out on this one. That place actually breeds their cows to their bulls from what I can gather and are successful at it. How about that. No need to always bring in new "hot" bulls. No looking for the bull who will fix the last bulls problems. Just the same direction year after year. No bull from yesteryear, no AI bulls, no 3,000 lb giant nor a 1,500 lb dink. They are not trying to be something for everyone. I have to respect that.
How did the Dover bull from YlazyY get registered? To bad his nuts froze off. I would have liked to see him proven out some more.

The bull DRC 101VM "Dover" recovered from his frozen testicles and is servicing cows for Chad Ennis (Shady Maple) in Indiana. Semen is available again. The reason I was able to get him registered when I bought him as a calf is due to the fact that Dover Sindelar keeps such  great records as to pedigrees and performance. If I was more computer savvy, I would post some pictures of his daughters and granddaughters. I am using a son that I'm really pleased with out of  Diamond Baroness 21J, A 12 year old cow bred by Okotoks.  He has demonstrated great calving ease, and good performance as did his sire.

You had sent me those photos last summer so I will put them up with the photos of the Earl's sire and dam.The first photo is of YY The Earl Of Dover 118U on pasture as a two year old, his second breeding season. Next are his sire DRC 101VM and dam Diamond Baroness 21J. The next two are heifer calves by the Earl. The one is nursing her two year old dam by Muridale Jolt 44S and the other one is also out of a two year old by Jolt.

 

[RedBulls]

Dan- Thanks for doing this. My apologies for getting away from the original Shoshone Angus Topic! Thairs is a program I greatly admire. I sent you another view of "Dover" (DRC 101VM) as a three year old from the rear, as well as some of our Dover influenced females. Thanks again.