Show Cattle Ethics

[husker1]

Haven't been on here lately, but thought I'd chime in. 

Legally, the seller probably needs to do nothing.  However, we need to get past that.  If the seller is in the business for the long haul, and enjoys the business...he is doing it for more than the money.  Go out of your way to make sure the buyer is totally satisfied with his purchase. 

We've all worked with people who are only interested in the profit that they can make...and that can be quite discouraging.  When one understands that there is much more to the cattle business (and life) than the money you make, you will start enjoying it much more!

 

[shortyjock89]

While what you say is absolutely true, it's always funny to me to see grown people who say they are 100% pro free market capitalism start talking about the ethics of it all and then decide that maybe being a greedy SOB isn't the way to go.

 

[husker1]

To make my point a touch more clear...

I have no problem with people making a profit...but I want my customers to be satisfied and I want them make a profit also! 

 

[aj]

The purpose of fitting is to create a deception.......who can argue that fact?

 

[Bradenh]

What about the deception of hauling th carriers to denver and then bashing carriers?

 

[Tallcool1]

The purpose of fitting is to create a deception.......who can argue that fact?

Nobody can argue that fact.

The purpose of FEEDING is also to create a deception.....who can argue that fact? 

The feeding regimen on these breeding cattle is no different than market cattle today.  We now see a heifer win the AOB Breeding heifer division on Saturday, and see the same heifer win the Market Heifer division on Sunday. 

My point is very simple.  If you despise the show cattle or more directly Show Steer industry, why are you on this site? 

Now, the point of fitting goes way beyond "deception".  I learned a great deal about cattle selection by learning how to fit.  Fitting teaches us what we would want one to look like in a perfect world.  It teaches us what we wish that calf had for pastern structure, what ideal hip structure looks like, what depth of rib we would want.  Fitting is what drives genetic evolution.

 

[aj]

Dear tallcool........I enjoy discussing history, evolution, cattle and natural selection. I consider this board to be a discussion board and not a propaganda board but it is both(human nature). I guess I'm the bad cop of the deal. I do sometimes fear that kids in the youth programs don't even realize that the beef industry is supposed to be about producing a high protein-high quality out of essentially waste(poor quality) roughage and or acres. Some kids think that all cattle live in cool boxes and hot boxesboxes and are all fed rations that cost 400 dollars a pound. I have history on this board as I was one of the first on here. I think Jason said once that I am oldest most original posters left on here but KNABE and others are close. I feel that bos taurus genetics should try and be lethal genetic defect free. My herd is essentially DS, PHA, and TH free. I have tested all the Red Angus cattle coming into my herd also. Why do I post on this board.......sometimes the best way to create discussion and get a spirited debate is to piss people off. I enjoy the discussions. Over the last 10 years or whatever it has been I have had one death threat..........many attempts by hand fulls of people to ban me....etc etc etc. I am a introvert and am soft spoken in a crowd......guess that is why I find it easier to discuss things on the board. I also have have a facebook page that I try and stir things up on.....like Brock Eagen. Feel free to view and comment on. I think freedom of speech is very special in this country.

 

[aj]

One funny note......Red asked me to be a moderator of this board when it first started up. Bahahahahahaah I declined.

 

[Tallcool1]

Dear tallcool........I enjoy discussing history, evolution, cattle and natural selection. I consider this board to be a discussion board and not a propaganda board but it is both(human nature). I guess I'm the bad cop of the deal. I do sometimes fear that kids in the youth programs don't even realize that the beef industry is supposed to be about producing a high protein-high quality out of essentially waste(poor quality) roughage and or acres. Some kids think that all cattle live in cool boxes and hot boxesboxes and are all fed rations that cost 400 dollars a pound. I have history on this board as I was one of the first on here. I think Jason said once that I am oldest most original posters left on here but KNABE and others are close. I feel that bos taurus genetics should try and be lethal genetic defect free. My herd is essentially DS, PHA, and TH free. I have tested all the Red Angus cattle coming into my herd also. Why do I post on this board.......sometimes the best way to create discussion and get a spirited debate is to piss people off. I enjoy the discussions. Over the last 10 years or whatever it has been I have had one death threat..........many attempts by hand fulls of people to ban me....etc etc etc. I am a introvert and am soft spoken in a crowd......guess that is why I find it easier to discuss things on the board. I also have have a facebook page that I try and stir things up on.....like Brock Eagen. Feel free to view and comment on. I think freedom of speech is very special in this country.

I agree that freedom of speech is very special in this country.  I have never even so much as suggested that you not be ALLOWED to participate in these conversations.  I am just curious why you would want to.

I disagree with your idea of what the beef industry is supposed to be about.  I don't believe that it is about high protein-high quality out of waste roughage or acres.  We feed a ration that is for all intents and purposes the EXACT same ration from the feedlot.  These feedlot cattle are not being fed waste roughage.  They are being fed high energy, extremely well balanced rations that convert to product.

Like the show ring or not, there is absolutely a trickle down to the commercial (feed lot) side of the industry.  When I showed steers, a 10:1 conversion of corn to pounds was considered normal.  Today, these steers convert much more efficiently than that.  I believe that a great deal of that improvement has been the result of the show ring.  Choice Plus or Prime was nearly unheard of in the show ring when I was showing.  We have now in our 5th year of showing steers, and have yet to have one grade lower than Choice.  In addition, we have had one a whisker away from Prime, and had another one Reserve carcass at our State Fair.  These are the same steers that we win classes and divisions with all year long aj. 

When genetic progress is the goal, there will certainly be bumps in the road.  I believe that these bumps are just part of the process.  Genetically "dirty" cattle are risky in terms of mating, but there is certainly no question that they perform.  Perhaps 10 years from now, the risk factor will be gone and we will be left with the performance side and freedom to mate these cattle however we choose.  Who knows.

With all of that said, this forum is full of kids that eat, sleep, and breathe show cattle.  These kids have given up a lot of freedom and other activities to pursue their dream of holding the halter of that one that gets the slap from a judge.  What these kids learn in the process of the pursuit of their dream is invaluable.  I have a very difficult time figuring out how kicking these kids in the guts every chance you get could possibly be considered productive. 

 

[aj]

When the beef industry has become anything other than taking sunshine......raw roughage......grass and cornstalks and making meat out of it......you are in the category of raising zoo animals. You are raising rabbits, alpaca's and race horses. It puts you in the category of being a hobby farmer.....and really that is what the show cattle industry has become.......a hobby.

 

[shortyjock89]

As if the pioneers of showing cattle in the 18th and 19th centuries didn't feed their prize animals anything other than grass. Get a grip.

It may seem like a hobby to you, and it is niche, but some people make a very nice living from show cattle. I primarily make my living selling show cattle and consulting on the care of show cattle. Those checks pay the bills just the same as the ones from the sale barn.

 

[aj]

It is a quite a racket........I'll admit.

 

[shortyjock89]

So is any profession outside of grassfed cow/calf, row crops, and manufacturing good enough for you? Just because something is somewhat niche doesn't mean that it isn't a real profession.

 

[Bradenh]

Does a guy who sells sportscars count as inferior in your book aj? Just because people don't drive them to work every day. Is the manufacturer or salesman less of a person because they made a niche product or a "hobby" product as you'd describe it

 

[aj]

Historically.........the best way to counter my posts.......is to demonize every post I post. Knabe takes care of that. As far as my post's being tramatic to tender hearted children showing cattle.........they have safe spaces on almost every campus now adays. So children can hide from any philosophy that is not lock step with their own. The beef industry is yuge in the United States.......the show calf is also a viable industry.......but they are becoming separate industries. That is all I try to point out. The best way to get me banned is to get at least 5 members on here to complain to a moderator. Don't go through Jason though cause last I knew we see pretty much eye to eye.  Attack attack attack untill you catch me drunk and pissed off some night.......I will retaliate and get banned. Its a pretty simple formula.

 

[Bradenh]

Took that to heart pretty fast

Go to a safe zone Count to 10 and come back

 

[shortyjock89]

This is attacking you? Hmm. Okay.

The show ring is about as far removed now as it ever has been from commercial cattle. Over 150 years of cattle being bred for exhibition. What you're saying is not new. I'm not scared of it because in my part of the world, my show cattle have almost the same pressure as the "commercial" herds around here....they all have it pretty easy. And mine grow more and have better structure and look better than most of the mutts around. Sure, I can't make a living by taking the heifers I sell privately to the sale barn, but I like to think I'm smart enough to figure out smething else if it comes to that.

I'm legitimately trying to have a discourse with you, and you say it's an attack. It's a rebuttal against your railing against my profession and passion. If your excuse for being a turd sometimes is being drunk and angry, I'd suggest sleeping it off instead.

 

[BroncoFan]

I believe show industry can be whatever people want it to be and not the same for every kid. I've seen kids get beat. It learned far more than kids that get all the work for them. I've heard of people starting a herd just off showing a few heifers or steers. It's a great niche market and one that even people who weren't born on a ranch can get into. Farmers and ranchers are getting older so let's hope that there's a 4H/FFA kid here and there that will be smart enough to keep the industry evolving to feed this world's population.

 

[Tallcool1]

Historically.........the best way to counter my posts.......is to demonize every post I post. Knabe takes care of that. As far as my post's being tramatic to tender hearted children showing cattle.........they have safe spaces on almost every campus now adays. So children can hide from any philosophy that is not lock step with their own. The beef industry is yuge in the United States.......the show calf is also a viable industry.......but they are becoming separate industries. That is all I try to point out. The best way to get me banned is to get at least 5 members on here to complain to a moderator. Don't go through Jason though cause last I knew we see pretty much eye to eye.  Attack attack attack untill you catch me drunk and pissed off some night.......I will retaliate and get banned. Its a pretty simple formula.

You don't have to get all teary eyed and whiney about it aj!  It is an open forum, and I have the same right to freedom of speech that you do.

Once again, I am not questioning your right to be involved with these threads.  I am questioning WHY you would want to. 

This forum is clearly not in alignment with your beliefs.  I am still puzzled by your motivation for wanting to participate.

It isn't a personal attack any more than your comments toward the show steer industry are.  I don't take your comments personally, and certainly hope that you don't take mine personally either.  You certainly deserve some degree of credit for being able to carry on a cattle operation and being able to do what you love to do. 

 

[vc]

Our fair had its champion drive last night, before the grand champion of each species is selected the judge will give a little speech. The lamb/goat judge calls himself a first generation agi, his parents bought him a pen of rabbits when he was 9, he went from there.

He stressed the importance of the lessons kids learn through showing, along with the standard responsibility and hard work there are other lessons, some kids have the resources other do not, those who do not: can whine about it say the others are cheaters, they buy their wins or they can go out and work hard, make contacts and put themselves in a better position to compete. These are lessons you will never learn in school or even sports.

I think people like AJ who use that 1% percent who get handed a halter as there go to what the show industry is about and they forget about the 49 to 59% who start out small make contacts earn the respect of their breeders, bust their butts to make the best of their situation and push to get their animal to reach its potential. AJ is like the other 40 to 50% buy the cheapest animal, feed the cheapest feed, spend an hour a week with their project and just keep whining about the others and never really get it. There is only one champion at the show, but depending on what you make of your experience determines if you come out of it a winner or a losers regardless of how you placed.

As far as the original post, I do not think the seller has any obligation to refund the buyer, but know of many who would do something to help out with the next project. Terminal animals being pushed to their max or past it, the risk is always there. We have been there, great calf just fell apart at the end, our breeder kicked in a grand as an add on at the auction.