I have an ethics question. I am a person experienced in helping kids develop their show steers for county fairs. Last year a young person bought a very nice steer for $4,000. that is a lot of money to this particular family. They bought a calf that would have a chance to win their fair. The intended and well understood use was for the kid to show the steer. I have fed cattle for 30 years and have fed many winners over the years. About a month ago this calf broke down in the front end. The knees and ankles on the front legs buckle the wrong way. A vet has diagnosed this as a genetic disorder not a feeding or nutrition problem. My question is, does the seller of this calf have any ethical responsibility to give some of the purchase price back to the kid? I would also like input on whether it would be ethical for this person to post online their experience with this particular seller. Any feedback and thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks
Show Cattle Ethics
- Thread starter jdb333
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Bradenh
Well-known member
No the buyer probably shouldn't say anything bashing the seller because it will make them look like a moron it happens on steerplanet often.
The buyer is responsible for making sure they feed sound cattle that are designed well. If he was cripple and or inured when you picked him up vs when you saw him and bought him then sure the seller should make it right maybe refund you or find a different calf that's not hurt whatever the case may be. If he was sound when they got him the man that sold him isn't liable. The buyer is liable for selecting one that's suspect on structure it happens all the time. The "genetic" side of it is called being a show steer probably being high %clubby. Happens often
It probably wasn't a feeding or nutrition problem I bet a dollar to a donut that it was a selection problem.
The buyer is responsible for making sure they feed sound cattle that are designed well. If he was cripple and or inured when you picked him up vs when you saw him and bought him then sure the seller should make it right maybe refund you or find a different calf that's not hurt whatever the case may be. If he was sound when they got him the man that sold him isn't liable. The buyer is liable for selecting one that's suspect on structure it happens all the time. The "genetic" side of it is called being a show steer probably being high %clubby. Happens often
It probably wasn't a feeding or nutrition problem I bet a dollar to a donut that it was a selection problem.
shortyjock89
Well-known member
Was the calf sold with any guarantees?
Did the buyer judge this calf to be sound at purchase?
What does the vet mean by disorder? Something like spastic paresis or just a straight fronted calf?
There are many calves sold for more than $4k that are not sound enough to make it to a fat steer show. I'd personally rather not sell an unsound one, and it's rare that it is done with malice. Many traders only have calves in their possession for a few days to a couple of weeks and structure issues may not present themselves in that time.
Did the buyer judge this calf to be sound at purchase?
What does the vet mean by disorder? Something like spastic paresis or just a straight fronted calf?
There are many calves sold for more than $4k that are not sound enough to make it to a fat steer show. I'd personally rather not sell an unsound one, and it's rare that it is done with malice. Many traders only have calves in their possession for a few days to a couple of weeks and structure issues may not present themselves in that time.
shortyjock89
Well-known member
I agree Braden. Selection is becoming a lost art.
Gargan
Well-known member
Did they buy him through an online sale or buy him private? Is there a video or pic of him from the time of purchase?
I would let the seller know. It isn't like this was a $35,000 steer. I certainly don't feel that the seller owes the kid their money back. With that said, I would say there is a very good possibility that the seller would be willing to find a way for the kid to afford another steer next year. If I were the guy that raised this steer, I would want to get my eyes on him today. I would want to know what the particular mating produced so that I could make an adjustment next time around.
As far as selection, this deal goes both ways. I have passed on steers that seemed way too straight for me, and seen them actually get better by the time they were fat steers. I have also bought "bullet proof" steers and had them get pretty straight on us. It is easy for us to say that there was a mistake made in the selection process, but sometimes all of the indicators are present and they just take a wrong turn.
Our first year, we had 3 steers all get too straight on us. These steers all did well in the show ring, and never got to the point that they had movement problems. We did however spend a lot of money keeping them sound to the point that we could show them. I swore that year, that we would NEVER have another steer that had running gear problems. This year, our best steer is starting to swell in his hocks, and is getting too straight. Maybe I just don't know how to pick them, or maybe I need a Crystal Ball.
Sometimes it just happens.
As far as selection, this deal goes both ways. I have passed on steers that seemed way too straight for me, and seen them actually get better by the time they were fat steers. I have also bought "bullet proof" steers and had them get pretty straight on us. It is easy for us to say that there was a mistake made in the selection process, but sometimes all of the indicators are present and they just take a wrong turn.
Our first year, we had 3 steers all get too straight on us. These steers all did well in the show ring, and never got to the point that they had movement problems. We did however spend a lot of money keeping them sound to the point that we could show them. I swore that year, that we would NEVER have another steer that had running gear problems. This year, our best steer is starting to swell in his hocks, and is getting too straight. Maybe I just don't know how to pick them, or maybe I need a Crystal Ball.
Sometimes it just happens.
shortyjock89
Well-known member
It's probably different with market animals than it is with breeding stock. We don't have that kind of back and forth too much. There are always animals that will be a risk/reward situation, but we're always very conservative when it comes to structure. I'd much rather be beat by a little mass than by one that flat moves better.
There isn't the pressure to get just the stoutest, coolest looking heifer like there is a steer, because middle of the road type females almost always do well as big ones. I thought the steers were headed that way for a bit but I think they're getting a little more extreme again.
There isn't the pressure to get just the stoutest, coolest looking heifer like there is a steer, because middle of the road type females almost always do well as big ones. I thought the steers were headed that way for a bit but I think they're getting a little more extreme again.
LLBUX
Well-known member
The seller has no ethical obligation to "make it right" with the owner, especially many months
after the calf has been handled and fed by the new owner.
I agree the seller would likely do what they can to help the child. Word of that would go a long way toward selling cattle in the future.
With the seller's help, perhaps it can be minimized by different nutrition, exercise, chiropractic or supplementation.
And why did the family buy a calf that would put too great a financial burden on them?
after the calf has been handled and fed by the new owner.
I agree the seller would likely do what they can to help the child. Word of that would go a long way toward selling cattle in the future.
With the seller's help, perhaps it can be minimized by different nutrition, exercise, chiropractic or supplementation.
And why did the family buy a calf that would put too great a financial burden on them?
LLBUX said:
Good point that the word of mouth would likely sell some cattle in the future!
I didn't understand the original post to suggest that the steer put "too great a financial burden" on the family. I guess I took it to mean that they don't typically spend that much for a steer.
IDM Farms
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Not to hijack this thread but what are you doing to the steer that is swelling in his hocks tallcool? I have one doing the same but only when I rinse him or he goes in the pond to cool off. I think the water is causing it to swell!(I know it sounds weird)
Bradenh
Well-known member
Orrrrrr do you only see it when he's wet because his leg hair is slicked down?
IDM Farms
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I shaved his hair to make him cooler for the summer. It's only one hock and it is not swollen when I put him in the wash rack but after I spray it with water it swells really fast. But it does go down in 30 min.
The reason it swells on the wash rack is because they are standing on concrete. When they are out in the pen or in the cooler, they are on a soft surface which relieves pressure on the hock joint.
What I am doing to this steer to cause it is most likely a couple things. First off, we are feeding the hell out of him to get him fat ASAP so that we can cool down his ration and grow some real hair...not just this fuzz. The second thing we have done to cause this is picked a steer that just plain got a little too straight.
Not to cause a big uproar, but every Monopoly we have showed in the last 5 years has had this problem. I believe that there is something in their hip structure that causes it. What makes them look so square from behind (with a little hair) is the same thing that makes their hocks swell. It is simple geometry with how they set their foot down. There is nothing wrong with his pastern structure although I wouldn't say that he is "squishy" on the ground. He doesn't pop in his pastern is my point, and his hoof structure is excellent. I picked him up to trim his feet a couple weeks ago, and just set him back down without touching his feet. They could have been touched up, but how he was hitting the ground was good enough for me.
Like I said in an earlier post, some of them just change as they get fat. It is just how it is. Needless to say...no Optiflexx for this one!
What I am doing to this steer to cause it is most likely a couple things. First off, we are feeding the hell out of him to get him fat ASAP so that we can cool down his ration and grow some real hair...not just this fuzz. The second thing we have done to cause this is picked a steer that just plain got a little too straight.
Not to cause a big uproar, but every Monopoly we have showed in the last 5 years has had this problem. I believe that there is something in their hip structure that causes it. What makes them look so square from behind (with a little hair) is the same thing that makes their hocks swell. It is simple geometry with how they set their foot down. There is nothing wrong with his pastern structure although I wouldn't say that he is "squishy" on the ground. He doesn't pop in his pastern is my point, and his hoof structure is excellent. I picked him up to trim his feet a couple weeks ago, and just set him back down without touching his feet. They could have been touched up, but how he was hitting the ground was good enough for me.
Like I said in an earlier post, some of them just change as they get fat. It is just how it is. Needless to say...no Optiflexx for this one!
aj
Well-known member
People who buy club calves.......are here today......and they are gone in 3-5 years. The rape will continue as long as this pattern continues. It is a economic model that has occurred since 1975 came in.
IDM Farms
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I watch him close the other day. I tied him up in the wash rack and did not spray him with water. No swelling for thirty minutes. Soon as I sprayed his hock swelling started, so it's not the hard surface making him swell. I never heard of water causing swelling.
knabe
Well-known member
aj said:
sorta like people who take th carriers to denver or brag about being a champion in a class of 2.
takes a real man to just keep bashing the show industry.
OLD WORLD SHORTIE
Well-known member
Some people just sell bad cattle sometimes and make it up to you on the next one lol. Either way they get your money twice.
Club calves are a risk and sometimes it just doesn't go well. If the animal is that important that's why they have insurance.
I personally like the ASA guarantee or however that works, but that's on breeding females.
Club calves are a risk and sometimes it just doesn't go well. If the animal is that important that's why they have insurance.
I personally like the ASA guarantee or however that works, but that's on breeding females.
..........and this is exactly why I hardly ever log onto this site anymore.
aj, if you hate the show cattle industry or more directly, the show STEER industry, then why are you even on this site.
I don't like Shorthorn cattle. I never have, and likely never will. I don't log onto the Shorthorn Association website, and don't participate in Shorthorn forums. I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Shorthorn cattle. I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.
In addition, I don't like Quarter Horses. My family raises Quarter Horses, and sells some of them for a whole lot of money. I wouldn't give you a nickel for any of them, even though one of them happened to be the High Selling stud in 2011. I don't frequent the AQHA website or forums. I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Quarter Horses. I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.
If you hate show steers so much, WHY IN THE HELL do you waste your time on this forum? What value to you get out of it? Or do you just not value your time? Maybe you are trying to change the world?
All of the bickering and idiotic exchanges just get old.
aj, if you hate the show cattle industry or more directly, the show STEER industry, then why are you even on this site.
I don't like Shorthorn cattle. I never have, and likely never will. I don't log onto the Shorthorn Association website, and don't participate in Shorthorn forums. I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Shorthorn cattle. I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.
In addition, I don't like Quarter Horses. My family raises Quarter Horses, and sells some of them for a whole lot of money. I wouldn't give you a nickel for any of them, even though one of them happened to be the High Selling stud in 2011. I don't frequent the AQHA website or forums. I also don't slip underhanded shitty comments into anyone that has a love for Quarter Horses. I value my time and focus that time toward things that I like.
If you hate show steers so much, WHY IN THE HELL do you waste your time on this forum? What value to you get out of it? Or do you just not value your time? Maybe you are trying to change the world?
All of the bickering and idiotic exchanges just get old.
SlickTxMaine
Well-known member
Tallcool1 said:
(clapping) <party>(clapping) <party> (clapping) <party>(clapping) <party>(clapping)
Back to the original topic, I want to share a similar experience that occurred with a breeder and close friend of mine. They raise purebred cattle that are as sound as they come, i.e. nothing clubby.
Last year, they sold a bull calf off one of their best cows; just after weaning at around six months. This was this particular cow's first bull calf, previously she had four heifer calves out of the same mating and they all turned out to be great show heifers. At about eight months old, and almost overnight, the bull calf became crippled. I forget the scientific name, but the vet diagnosed it with a genetic disorder (I would assume it's the same one that OP is referring to). The reason that it had never appeared in the heifers is that this disorder is much more prevalent in males.
Unfortunately, by the time this was discovered, the cow was already bred back to the same bull. As luck would have it, she had another bull calf back in the fall. The calf was great, and completely sound and defect-free when it was born. They decided they would keep him and feed him out to see if the disorder surfaced again. Again, shortly after weaning, the calf became crippled to the point that he had to be put down.
I saw a few people mention that the breeder should do nothing and that the problem is the buyer's fault for not knowing how to select cattle, but I disagree if we are talking about the same disorder. It's no secret that club calves are much more prone to structural issues than most purebreds, but this disorder appears nearly overnight. After seeing it firsthand, I can tell you that it is completely undetectable until it happens. This is NOT to be confused with a poorly structured calf that begins to buckle and blow apart as it gets big and is being pushed hard on feed.
The breeder I am referring to felt bad that the sound calf they sold became crippled. Obviously if they had discovered the disorder, they would have never sold or attempted to sell the calf. The buyer also understood what a bizarre situation it was, so that weren't demanding a new calf for free. In the end, the breeder offered them a new bull at a VERY fair price. IIRC, they sold the first bull for $5,000 and then they took him back and sold the buyer another young bull of equal quality for $1,000.
I think they did the right thing. I don't think the breeder necessarily has an obligation to replace the calf for free, but doing something to make it right really says a lot about what kind of breeder they are.
Last year, they sold a bull calf off one of their best cows; just after weaning at around six months. This was this particular cow's first bull calf, previously she had four heifer calves out of the same mating and they all turned out to be great show heifers. At about eight months old, and almost overnight, the bull calf became crippled. I forget the scientific name, but the vet diagnosed it with a genetic disorder (I would assume it's the same one that OP is referring to). The reason that it had never appeared in the heifers is that this disorder is much more prevalent in males.
Unfortunately, by the time this was discovered, the cow was already bred back to the same bull. As luck would have it, she had another bull calf back in the fall. The calf was great, and completely sound and defect-free when it was born. They decided they would keep him and feed him out to see if the disorder surfaced again. Again, shortly after weaning, the calf became crippled to the point that he had to be put down.
I saw a few people mention that the breeder should do nothing and that the problem is the buyer's fault for not knowing how to select cattle, but I disagree if we are talking about the same disorder. It's no secret that club calves are much more prone to structural issues than most purebreds, but this disorder appears nearly overnight. After seeing it firsthand, I can tell you that it is completely undetectable until it happens. This is NOT to be confused with a poorly structured calf that begins to buckle and blow apart as it gets big and is being pushed hard on feed.
The breeder I am referring to felt bad that the sound calf they sold became crippled. Obviously if they had discovered the disorder, they would have never sold or attempted to sell the calf. The buyer also understood what a bizarre situation it was, so that weren't demanding a new calf for free. In the end, the breeder offered them a new bull at a VERY fair price. IIRC, they sold the first bull for $5,000 and then they took him back and sold the buyer another young bull of equal quality for $1,000.
I think they did the right thing. I don't think the breeder necessarily has an obligation to replace the calf for free, but doing something to make it right really says a lot about what kind of breeder they are.
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