Starting a new Shorthorn Association for Cattle Breeders

[nate53]

They just said it was a one time fee for the cow, they gave them a number and the calves would be registereable as shorthorn plus.  Which I told them I was not interested in registering anything out of them, I just thought they would be interested in kill data out of registered shorthorn bulls.  I was going to just let them have the kill sheet (no pencil required) ;D.  I guess it would take a bit of time to do whatever they wanted to do with it, but I wasn't interested in paying for it.  My part in the shorthorn breed is minimal at best.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

undoing sharp pencils takes more time than just incentivizing the people who want to collect data.

there must be a reason they wanted the commercial cows registered other than the $12/head.  did you ask them?

Is there any reason other then generating more revenue? What good to the gain registering comm cows? Why wouldn't they want kill data on shorthorn bulls? Isn't that the whole freaking point of seed stock? To improve? The ASA can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

 

[RyanChandler]

Mandatory reporting?  Are you all talking just purebred's or anything shorthorn sired?

All registered calves.

My problem with mandatory reporting is that a chunk of people are just going to make up part of the #'s.  So I agree with mandatory reporting but I believe it should be self imposed (not enforced by the association). 

Are you familiar with any legitimate breed that allows registration without any performance records? No bw, ww, or yw no nothing?  Those people you're referring to get EXPOSED when they claim 850lb ww's out of bulls whose prior recorded calves average 200lbs lighter.

 

[aj]

I think Nate is right. You used to take a reg. bull and breed to a grade cow....and you could register the calf. I think now they make you register the grade cow and pay for a pedigree on here before you can do it. That seems a little bit money hungry. I'm not sure when that happened.

 

[RyanChandler]

Close the books- problem solved.

 

[NHR]

So, the problems that some have with the ASA is:
1. Lack of mandatory reporting.
2. Perceived input/profit in show cattle along with purchase cost of animal.
3. Reference/Cross cow registry cost.

I think that is all I saw. So lets address them.

1. If someone wants this changed then it needs to be brought up to the board and membership to drive it to fruition, however I believe the data would not be accurate because some would just "eyeball weigh" the animal. With EPD's there is an accuracy. The Accuracy should be the guide for breeding determinations along with actually looking at reported BW's of progeny. This topic does not really matter to me, I could go either way.

2. I have bought and raised numerous heifers that have done very well at shows. If I have a heifer that is taking too much input to achieve optimal growth and weight then I cull the heifer. Maybe I am fortunate but for the last 8 years we have not fed a heifer more then 12lbs per day of feed with beet pulp/cottonseed hulls added for fill for showing. The heifer my daughter showed the last 2 years was fed 4lbs of feed per day once she got to 15 months of age. We fed alot of hay and cottonseed hulls to keep her happy but she was never criticized for being malnourished! My point is that the genetics are there to make a profitable junior project and still be extremely competitive in the show ring. Just search and you can find them for very reasonable prices.

3. I believe this was changed a few years ago and I think the cost derives from the organization that the ASA uses for its registry. I remember something about a cost per animal whether it was a reference dam or not.

 

[RyanChandler]

1. If someone wants this changed then it needs to be brought up to the board and membership to drive it to fruition, however I believe the data would not be accurate because some would just "eyeball weigh" the animal. With EPD's there is an accuracy. The Accuracy should be the guide for breeding determinations along with actually looking at reported BW's of progeny. This topic does not really matter to me, I could go either way.

Without actuals EPDS HAVE ZERO ACCURACY!!! What do you think the epds are based off? How do you think the EPDS become adjusted?  You're logic is comparable to saying there should be no rules bc we know some people will break them.  Hell, I'd even take an eyeball weight over looking at a set of EPDS that reflect an individual 5 generations back. 

 

[nate53]

Xbar:  I believe I registered a black angus bull calf with only a b.w.  If I remember right? ;D 

I just thought the association could use the carcass data from the shorthorn sired calves to improve epd accuracy for the sires.  I understand the fee for people who want to register calves, but I only wanted to provide kill data (gray area I guess).

 

[knabe]

what bull would you use if he had more accuracy?

 

[RyanChandler]

what bull would you use if he had more accuracy?

That's not the point.  The point is it would weed out the show genetics and the commercially oriented genetics would no longer suffer from the prior's imposition on the commercial acceptability of the SH breed. 

 

[knabe]

That's not the point.  The point is it would weed out the show genetics and the commercially oriented genetics would no longer suffer from the prior's imposition on the commercial acceptability of the SH breed.

why do you care about them.  how are they interfering with your operation.  no one buys shorthorn show cattle for commercial purposes.  commercial ranchers would laugh their buddies out of town.  they call maine bull's wooly pants and laugh till they saw the calves. worry more about what you are doing and what you have to offer than constantly wasting your time on nothing you have control over.

 

[Doc]

what bull would you use if he had more accuracy?

That's not the point.  The point is it would weed out the show genetics and the commercially oriented genetics would no longer suffer from the prior's imposition on the commercial acceptability of the SH breed.

Why are you so set on "weeding" out the show genetics. I mean if you raise something totally different , promote it properly then the show genetics shouldn't affect you and you should be able to sell more than you can produce.

 

[RyanChandler]

Generally, I would agree with what both of you are saying, but try to find an outfit that'll tell you "our bulls are show cattle only." You just can't do it!  It's the deception!  And it's coming from the big $ dogs that clearly made their money outside of cattle. I can't compete with that (advertising) and I doubt you can either.  Unless they lie, mandatory reporting would really quantify performance or lack of- and all the promotion and commotion in the world cant override a -12bw.  I feel like mandatory reporting would make the distinction between the 'types' ever more obvious!

 

[aj]

The ASA used to do little meetings at the time of the National meeting.......committee meetings. I went to a couple at the Denver stock show when Bolz was in. I thought these meetigs were rushed because everybody was in a hurry to get back to take care of cattle etc.  Seems llike it would be cool to just have a think tank event......kinda like the Shorthorn University deal. Seems like the Red Angus used to do these. There may be some fine tuning to do. What would happen if you had a carcass contest where the winning steer or pen of 5 steers won a 5,000 jackpot. That might up the ante on getting calves on feed and gathering data. You might fill the feedlot up.

 

[knabe]

What can you guys do to help the breed independent of telling everyone else what to do with someone else's money but yet won't run for the board or become a field rep.

Do you need a cooperator herd, outside money to help purchase a bull, retained ownership, the tools are all there.


You seem more interested in detailing how you can't do something rather than how you did something.

Tell us the story on how you came to purchase the hc bull.

 

[knabe]

What would happen if you had a carcass contest where the winning steer or pen of 5 steers won a 5,000 jackpot.

nothing.  because you won't come up with the $5,000, get the board to put it on the agenda, run for the board, propose it, make it recurring etc.  you just need to produce the kind of cattle you want everyone else to produce and people will knock down your door.

i really don't see who is stopping you from being successful except yourself.

 

[RyanChandler]

What can you guys do to help the breed independent of telling everyone else what to do with someone else's money but yet won't run for the board or become a field rep.
.

Tell us the story on how you came to purchase the hc bull.

Where do you get off always rambling about "other people's money?"  Who mentioned 'won't?'

 

[aj]

geeze knabe......so full of hatred! I don't know if it would be impossible to come up with 5,000$ money. Name the contest after the donor. Do a 1,000 ayear for 5 years trial. Cotest would be named Cyclone trace or Sullivans Steer test or something. Wouldn't be tax deductable? The reason for these discussion boards is to kick ideas around....imo.

 

[knabe]

Where do you get off always rambling about "other people's money?"  Who mentioned 'won't?'

$5k is someone else's money.

So you are running for the board?

 

[knabe]

geeze knabe......so full of hatred! I don't know if it would be impossible to come up with 5,000$ money. Name the contest after the donor. Do a 1,000 ayear for 5 years trial. Cotest would be named Cyclone trace or Sullivans Steer test or something. Wouldn't be tax deductable? The reason for these discussion boards is to kick ideas around....imo.

No hate at all. You guys want real data. So make it. Finance the competition. No one is stopping you from doing anything to create, prove, sell etc. all you talk about is mandatory this mandatory that. Just do it. Total happiness. Sponsor a contest and contact other members to throw in the bone pile than ask the association rather than them coming up with the money.  Most assn's have a means to donate, create.

Tell you what. I'll give you $100 if you can come up with $4900 for a carcass contest from members and not through the assn.

It could be like a reality show.

We are kicking ideas around. I've given you lots of positive ideas but for some reason you want someone else to pay for it and mandatory this and that and for some reason ponying this out is hate.

With the bar so low for proven performance shorthorns it Shoukd be really easy to be a source of proven genetics.

Just do it. Super positive. ❤