THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND NEWER POSTS WITH DIVIDEND INFLUENCED CATTLE

[knabe]

And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D

pdbs is one bull i would like genotyped.  some people laughed when he came out.

 

[GM]

And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D

pdbs is one bull i would like genotyped.  some people laughed when he came out.

What's the story on Pinedrive Big Sky?  I remember he was huge.

 

[Okotoks]

hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html, also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland

That "Cavans Yankee" looks a lot more Shorthorn than Maine.....I like his looks.

GB

Below is a pdigree for Cavans Yankee. I'm pretty proud of the fact he carries two crosses of the Diamond bulls that MajorJohn Gibb, Glenisla imported from us. Yankee is 7/8 shorthorn and 1/8 maine(maine fullblood)In Canada he would be 7/8 in the US he would 31/32. The Diamond Xerxes 8X bull shows up in a lot of UK pedigrees including one of the growth rate trait leaders. It is interesting that 8X was by Deer Trail Private Eye, a son of Deer Trail Goliath in turn by Guinness( Deerpark Improver2). we used one son and two grandsons of Guinness (both by Goliath) and it really worked for us. Calving ease was never an issue and the pelvic size of his descendants was huge. We had a call from a local Angus breeder who had photos of Yankee and was very impressed.
                            NORVYK MACBRIDE 52B (P) #X-462862 (100%)
            DIAMOND FORTUNE (P) (IMP CA) #X-M465929 (100%)
                           DIAMOND AMANDA MAID 12A (H) #F657860 (100%)
  Sire: GLENISLA RANNOCH R030 (P) #UK540307-700030-48 (97.65%)
                           DIAMOND XERXES 8X (P) (IMP CA) #DAN 8X.36 (100%)
            GLENISLA FOXGLOVE TANSY J52 (P) #GJP J52.41 (95.31%)
                           GLENISLA FOXGLOVE TANSY D3 (P) #GJP D3.37 (90.62%)
Animal: CAVANS YANKEE Y838 (H) #523800652  
                           TOFTS ROMANY (H) #RRJ E04.38 (56.25%)
           CHAPELTON MASTERKEY (H) #K0200-01900-44 (75%)
                           CHAPELTON BROADHOOKS H1 (P) #BID H1.40 (93.75%)
  Dam: CAVANS PRINCESS ROYAL (H) #523524-300004-47 (78.12%)
                           BALMYLE ZEPHYR (H) (ET) #BPW Z32FOT.33 (62.5%)
            CAVANS WATERLOO CLARISSA (H) #TCT C19.37 (81.25%)
                           CAVANS PRINCESS ANNETTE (H) #TCT X5.31 (100%)

 

[knabe]

And wasn't this about the time that Pinedrive Big Sky was born? ;D

pdbs is one bull i would like genotyped.  some people laughed when he came out.

What's the story on Pinedrive Big Sky?  I remember he was huge.

so were chi's, maine's, holsteins and who knows what else.  doesn't mean he was, just that i'd like to see a dna profile of him and his parents.  there is only bloodtyping on file for his parents, though there is a snp file on file for him which would only help prove his descendants, not his parents.  still, i would like to see the bloodtyping on both parents.  we have to take the associations word for these files.

i have one calf who the sire was unknown and 6 or 7 sires were listed as rule outs.

in other words, a descendant can't normally have a marker that both parents don't have.  they could lose one easier than they could gain one.  gaining one would indicate something might be fishy.

 

[Okotoks]

hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html, also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland

Here is Typhoon's pedigree.he actually has more US blood than Canadian. If you go back to the Blue Ridge Patience 10X cow her sire is Blue Ridge Impression by Ayatollah. Ayatollah often appears in the background of heavy muscled animals, no idea why!

                              PHILDON CUNIA DIVIDEND (H) #*XAR20454 (50%)
                      CF TRUMP X (P) #*X3909231 (75%)
                              CARMELE NG 158X (P) #*X3881362 (100%)
      Sire: CF VARSITY X (P) (IMP semen US #(USA)*4019565 (81.3%)
                              CF FORTUNE (H) #(USA)*3961594 (87.5%)
                  CF PROUD FOOL 830 FT X (P) #X-(USA)*3991235 (87.5%)
                              CF PROUD FOOL 673 TB (P) #X-(USA)*3966754 (87.5%)
Animal: CHAPELTON TYPHOON (P) (ET) #493801125 
                                  CCS STERLING X (P) #X US3867748 (100%)
                      CCS STERLING 11 (CAN) (P) #X-*2236 (100%)
                                  WC ROSEANN 8916 (P) #X-[US]*3854717 
    Dam: BLUE RIDGE CHEERLEADER 29E (P) #X-*3786 (100%)
                                STRATHORE IRISH MAGIC 1W (H) #M458174 (100%)
                      BLUE RIDGE BABY PATIENCE 56A (H) #F657240 (100%)
                                BLUE RIDGE PATIENCE 10X (H) #F649609 (100%)

 

[justintime]

hey DRB, Chapelton Liberty is from pre foot and mouth era, like most UK Shorthorns then , about 50% MA and 50% Shorthorn, the current Chapelton herd is all from  embyro project I put together for Mr Biggar... 28 donor cows and 12 sires... the best breeding bull in the UK is probably Chapelton Typhoon , http://www.chapeltonfarm.co.uk/home.html, also did their AA project. A number of these emybro bulls are now working in Ireland

Here is Typhoon's pedigree.he actually has more US blood than Canadian. If you go back to the Blue Ridge Patience 10X cow her sire is Blue Ridge Impression by Ayatollah. Ayatollah often appears in the background of heavy muscled animals, no idea why!

                              PHILDON CUNIA DIVIDEND (H) #*XAR20454 (50%)
                      CF TRUMP X (P) #*X3909231 (75%)
                             CARMELE NG 158X (P) #*X3881362 (100%)
      Sire: CF VARSITY X (P) (IMP semen US #(USA)*4019565 (81.3%)
                              CF FORTUNE (H) #(USA)*3961594 (87.5%)
                 CF PROUD FOOL 830 FT X (P) #X-(USA)*3991235 (87.5%)
                              CF PROUD FOOL 673 TB (P) #X-(USA)*3966754 (87.5%)
Animal: CHAPELTON TYPHOON (P) (ET) #493801125  
                                  CCS STERLING X (P) #X US3867748 (100%)
                      CCS STERLING 11 (CAN) (P) #X-*2236 (100%)
                                  WC ROSEANN 8916 (P) #X-[US]*3854717  
    Dam: BLUE RIDGE CHEERLEADER 29E (P) #X-*3786 (100%)
                                STRATHORE IRISH MAGIC 1W (H) #M458174 (100%)
                      BLUE RIDGE BABY PATIENCE 56A (H) #F657240 (100%)
                                BLUE RIDGE PATIENCE 10X (H) #F649609 (100%)

There are two other animals in the pedigree of Chapelton Typhoon that suggest heavier muscling to me. The first is WC Roseann 8916. Roseann was a Rodeo Drive daughter and a very good one. She had an unique ability to add extra muscling to her offspring. Don Cagwin mentioned this when he had her, as every calf she had went on to add muscle to her calves. David Ragsdale, Sutherland Farms, purchased Roseanne from Cagwin's and she did the same thing there. David has told me that her calves were some of the heaviest muscled he ever raised. CCS Marc Drive, our herd sire several years ago, also possessed this trait. While Marc Drive was not heavily muscled himself, his offspring all had more muscle. Marc Drive was a son of WC Roseanne 8916.The odd part was that while they had additional muscling, it was very smooth muscling and his daughters were very maternal with super udders, milked well, and were very fertile. Three of our first donors were Marc Drive daughters and while they had the extra muscling, they were outstanding maternal cows. These three donors were all exceptional producers and we sold embryos to 6 countries from them. I have attached a picture of HC Melba Niam 98H, one of my favorite Marc Drive daughters.

The second animal in this pedigree that suggests extra muscling, is Strathore Irish Magic 1W. I was at Lorne Pimmett's farm at Peterborough, Ontario on April 18th,1987, the day Irish Magic was born. He was an amazing calf at birth, and his mother was probably in the top few females I have ever seen. I tried to buy the pair that day, but Lorne had a huge price tag on them so I left them alone. He showed tremendous thickness and style at day 1. I have often said that the real good ones look good from day 1 on, and this calf had "the look".
There have been lots and lots of stories that Irish Magic was part Maine, and I have heard oftentimes that he was sired by a Maine bull, which would have made him a half blood. I don't know about that, and expect it is totally rumour. His sire ( on paper anyways) was GS Irish Sweepstakes, who was a horned Dividend son that Hoyt and Sons purchased in Denver from The Greeley family in Iowa. IMO, Irish Sweepstakes is a bull that was totally overlooked simply because he was a horned bull. Quite frankly, I think he was an outstanding sire and I don't ever remember seeing a poor Irish Sweepstakes calf. I think there is still semen from Irish Sweepstakes around and I would suggest that he could sire some cattle that would be super popular today. Last time I checked there was still a bunch of Irish Sweepstakes stored at Alta Genetics. The main reason I dispel the talk of Irish Magic being half Maine, is because Irish Sweepstakes was capable of siring calves that looked like this.

I do not totally dismiss the possibility of there being some Maine blood flowing through Irish Magic's viens, as there was another story floating around that his dam, Strathore Mystic Marvel, was a halfblood Maine cow. Lorne Pimmett's brother, Murray, told me a few times that Mystic Rosewood was a daughter of Covino 111. Again, I consider this heresay, as I can not prove it, but when I think about this female, she does look much like the Covino 111 daughters I had in both body type and color. Murray Pimmett was an excellent cattleman, and he was also a student of pedigrees, and he also knew his brother's herd very well. At this point in time, I don't really care if there was Maine in Irish Magic's pedigree or not. It simply doesn't matter at this time. As far as I am concerned, if he does have some Maine blood, he is just another animal that slipped into the closed herdbook that was not truely purebred. There are lots and lots of them. In any event, Strathore Mystic Rosewood was a truely amazing female. She may have been a bit big by today's standards as she weighed over 1800 lbs when mature ( another reason I think there could have been some truth to the Maine theory as her sire rather than Winalot Myth).

I also agree to the comment about Ayatollah being in the background of some heavy muscled animals. I have seen this many times, and have wondered about this. Guess that is a part of what makes genetics so amazing and so interesting. Sometimes, the best animals in an era, have animals in their backgrounds that were cursed in their own era!As I have said many times, on SP, a direct Ayatollah daughter ranks in my list of top 10 females I have ever seen. She had amazing thickness and depth and was very easy fleshing.

I will also say that I prefer Cavens Yankee over Chapelton Typhoon but I would not doubt that Typhoon is breeding better with the British females. Okotoks, I will also say that some of the cattle I liked the best in Scotland had one or both Diamond bulls in their pedigrees. I have also attached a picture of two full sisters that have both of these bulls in their pedigrees.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

The yankee bull would appear to be the better bull for me.
I was given some IWF Magic? semen awhile back. I never used it or researched it. I was told to save it and down the road use it on my best cows. Is he sired by Strathore Irish magic? What is the storry on IWF Magic if I am sayin his name right.

IMO the Typhoon bull looks HUGE and looks like a high input bull. Different strokes for different folks. He should sire some growth I would think That would be a perfect example of a terminal shorthorn bull.

 

[scotland]

the Cavans bull is a frame score  taller than Typhoon.. at Chapelton there are only a couple of  British cows all the the show winners and high seller come form the North American embyro project i did for them. Typhonon sones have sold publicly for 16,000pounds... he leaves his cattle with demension and shape , very good muscle and yield...

 

[JTM]

I just got done spending an hour reading through all of these threads. I remember most of the bulls being mentioned from when I first got into shorthorns and studied the pedigrees. My wifes family have been involved in Maines since they came into the country and I always get to hear about the conspiracy theories about the Shorthorns and Maines mixing. I remember a couple of the bulls that kept coming up in my pedigree searches through some of the accomplished females were Ransom G Nine, Marc IV, Clark, Columbus,(these might have been raised close to me in Ohio?) and of course the Deerpark Improvers and Leaders. Even though I didn't grow up around cattle, I love this stuff and it has been very entertaining! Thanks everyone for sharing!

 

[oakview]

Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

R Lee Johnson lives 20 minutes or so from me. If anybody wants to ask him about this stuff, he loves to still talk cattle. He is still listed in the Ohio Shorthorn Breeders assoc that comes out in the July issue each year. He still has a few cows he tinkers with and has a room in his barn filled with old banners and pics. Really neat to see.

 

[Okotoks]

R Lee Johnson lives 20 minutes or so from me. If anybody wants to ask him about this stuff, he loves to still talk cattle. He is still listed in the Ohio Shorthorn Breeders assoc that comes out in the July issue each year. He still has a few cows he tinkers with and has a room in his barn filled with old banners and pics. Really neat to see.

Years ago he used to buy a lot of Rothney bred bulls, I believe Rothney Comet was one. He also got a lot of the Thomas herd. Did he keep or sell the Thomas cows? I know MILL BROOK RANSOM G 9 and MILL BROOK MARC IV were out of Thomas cows.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Thats a good question okotoks. I will have to ask him and get back to you. If I was to guess I would say no. He only had about a dozen females and they were all first or second calvers when I was there. His herd bull was disapointing to say the least. He agreed with me on this. What he replaced him with is another good question. I have heard him say many times that he was a controversial fella back in the day. He smiles talking about it and insists his cattle were pure shorthorn. I guess we may never know. All his semen was lost when his tanks went dry some time back.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Gs Irish Sweepstakes was raised by Deertrails Partners-and having been one too for 15 plus years  I cant really say what I heard told about his dam-other than she was a huge thick cow who may have come from Stillman Valley  Ill. Needless to say-the Strathore Mystic Rosewood cow was also  phenominal. Strathore also  produced an Evergreen Seville Son-I saw somewhere in an ad, Now Id be flat scaired to use him. I saw Iceways Magic bull at FortWorth in 1993-hed fit right in today-hate to say it-including the big BWS. Waukaru had a really good white hiefer out of him-dont know what became of her. O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

some pics of  guiness, and elbee, ayatollah... did you realize that the roan cattle in the orginal Irish pic I posted are from  Ballingarrrane, could be one of them is a Lilac the dam of the great Shannon Margie///There are some later pics of Guiness I believe maybe at Dugdales-Great bull

 

[shortyjock89]

We bought an IWF Magic x Minnie heifer from Waukaru in 2002 (or thereabouts).  She had quite a few good calves for us, including a bull we used in our herd for a few years.  She had twins a couple times, and her udder started to deteriorate and she hurt her hoof pretty badly so we sold her.  She really was a very good cow, just wish she had more heifers.  All of our Waukaru cows have way more bulls than heifers, not sure why.......

 

[Okotoks]

The yankee bull would appear to be the better bull for me.
I was given some IWF Magic? semen awhile back. I never used it or researched it. I was told to save it and down the road use it on my best cows. Is he sired by Strathore Irish magic? What is the storry on IWF Magic if I am sayin his name right.

IMO the Typhoon bull looks HUGE and looks like a high input bull. Different strokes for different folks. He should sire some growth I would think That would be a perfect example of a terminal shorthorn bull.

IWF Magic was a really good bull, I wish his semen qualified for Canada. His dam was great Winalot Big Mac cow. The grand dam was by MILLVALE JUBILATION 1751.
You should be able to work that in to your program with RS DV 034 329 08.

 

[JTM]

Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 

I went back and looked at the pedigrees after you replied. They have Graham Land and Livestock in Rensallaer, Indiana. Also, I was able to pin down why I thought those bulls came from my county. Columbus came from a "Guckian" cow (Eaton, Ohio) and Clark also goes back to a Guckian cow as the grandam. My grandmother grew up near the old Guckian farm and I believe my wife is related to some Guckian's. I will have to look into that some more.
Trevor Guy Cattle Co. , I guess the rumor goes that the R. Lee Johnson bulls may have been out of Maine Anjou cows, bulls, or been purebred Maine Anjou. I have no clue but I can remember some question about G NINE or G9, which one I don't know. It would be interesting to visit and talk to him about the history of his herd and those three bulls.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Ransom and Marc IV were raised by R. Lee Johnson of Ohio.  Clark and Columbus were raised by Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota.  In reard to my eariler comment that the Guiness calves we had were a little three pieced, I meant they appeared to be divided into sections, head and neck, shoulders, and rear end and none of the parts fit together smoothly. 

I went back and looked at the pedigrees after you replied. They have Graham Land and Livestock in Rensallaer, Indiana. Also, I was able to pin down why I thought those bulls came from my county. Columbus came from a "Guckian" cow (Eaton, Ohio) and Clark also goes back to a Guckian cow as the grandam. My grandmother grew up near the old Guckian farm and I believe my wife is related to some Guckian's. I will have to look into that some more.
Trevor Guy Cattle Co. , I guess the rumor goes that the R. Lee Johnson bulls may have been out of Maine Anjou cows, bulls, or been purebred Maine Anjou. I have no clue but I can remember some question about G NINE or G9, which one I don't know. It would be interesting to visit and talk to him about the history of his herd and those three bulls.

I have heard that rumor myself. If you ever want to talk to him, every friday morning in Mt. Vernon he has breakfast at Barb's Diner(7a.m.ish) and he always shows up at the ohio beef expo. He is a character. ;D we get along pretty good.

 

[oakview]

Grahams dispersed their Minnesota herd in the 70's.  I think the sale averaged just over 3,000 and at the time, I thought it would be the highest averaging Shorthorn sale I would ever attend.  They acquired a few cows later, I bought a Columbus son out of a Lago's Cache Winner daughter a few years after the sale.  Ayatollah also appeared later.  I think the reason you see the Indiana address on a few Graham bred cattle is because after the boys left home, Barry Jordan kept some cows for them.