aj
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I thought HUBS had some awful good cattle. Still do.
THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND NEWER POSTS WITH DIVIDEND INFLUENCED CATTLE
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mark tenenbaum
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If you look at very early pictures of dual or dairy shorthorns-they were big thick deep bodied cattle-sorta course versions of the irish cattle of the 70s-The Irish cattle were first and foremost dual to begin with.Deerpark leader didnt look like a scotch pony at all-Full circle-with a different twist. O0
scotland
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interesting reading... SaskValley Bonanza is linebrd to Deerpark Improver 52, at least 6 crosses and to the $41,500 Crestdale Super Flag 14g and Mandalong Super Flag on yet another sire line... I am been in Ireland many many time over the years... Shorthorn origins in Ireland as early as 1800 had elite herds of Collings and later Booth cattle. At one time every sire used in Ireland was leased from Booth, remember Booths rarely sold a bull, but leased them.
The Deerpark herd was a dairy herd, I have offical milk records on some of their cows, Deerpark Kildysart 3rd reg# FNC299 born Mar 27,1960
milk reocrd started 23mar1969 7,644 lbs milk 3.90% bf in 245days. Her next record freshing 30 Mar1970 8,120 lbs milk 3.70% bf 245 days.
Deerpark Kilrush reg# r.e. 8755 born21May 1954
calving 17mar1958 7,359 lbs milk 3.74% bf 273days
calving 29mar 1962 8,152 lbs milk 3.74% bf 280days
calving 21 may 1963 7,297 lbs mmilk 3.64% bf 210 days
calving 5apr 19965 8,137 lbs milk 3.88% bf 252 days
calving 28apr67 5,446 lbs milk 3.88%bf 210 days
The Deerpark herd was a dairy herd, I have offical milk records on some of their cows, Deerpark Kildysart 3rd reg# FNC299 born Mar 27,1960
milk reocrd started 23mar1969 7,644 lbs milk 3.90% bf in 245days. Her next record freshing 30 Mar1970 8,120 lbs milk 3.70% bf 245 days.
Deerpark Kilrush reg# r.e. 8755 born21May 1954
calving 17mar1958 7,359 lbs milk 3.74% bf 273days
calving 29mar 1962 8,152 lbs milk 3.74% bf 280days
calving 21 may 1963 7,297 lbs mmilk 3.64% bf 210 days
calving 5apr 19965 8,137 lbs milk 3.88% bf 252 days
calving 28apr67 5,446 lbs milk 3.88%bf 210 days
mark tenenbaum
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By the time I got to Ireland in 1992-and went to visit Mr Quane-there were only about 10-15 cows and a group of young hiefers-several of which were black roans. The cows were real stout-and thick-moreso than the Seville-Ayatollah tailend crap Id been seeing in the US. John Mallony had some really big hiefers_that were good. But he also had a diverse group of cows-some of which were freaky small and clubby-for lack of a better description. There was a dinky bull running with them from Quane-a roan-who was as wide as he was tall.The most pretty showy cows were at Shannon. He had a young red bull-MEAN AS HELL-who remains probably the thickest butted bull for that age Ive ever seen. With that flat square rear-and wide pin settings-which I havent seen anywhere else. HE WAS THE ONE ILL REMEMBER over all the cattle Ive seen-before or siince. The hugest cow was a Deerpark Scarlett -owned by Paddy O-Callihan-Deep-(probably @2000 plus) and huge butted. Looked alot like the cattle from the 1800s.I saw accounts from the Irish museum of a family cow-that miked and raised a calf (display animals). Beutifull moderate roan-that rivaled any maine for thickness-along with the pretty front and level top-rear. I dont feel that many of the good ones ever came here-from what I saw. O0
knabe
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maine's the same way. there is milk info on cunia's dam and a few others i have.
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Davis Shorthorns
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aj said:
I agree, I have been out there a few times this year and absolutly LOVE his cattle. A tick bigger framed than I like but all in all just a great herd of cattle.
I think it would be safe to say Deerpark Leader would be the basis for most of the Irish bulls that had an impact on American Shorthorns. Leader 13th, Leader 18th, Leader 16th, Ultimate Type, Monopoly, Boardwalk, were all direct sons and there were countless other grandsons and granddaughters that had a major impact. There were quite a few Improvers around, but the Leader line was far more popular in the States at the time. Aldens had both Dividend and Improver at one time and the Dividends were far more popular in their sale and their showstring.
scotland
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the milk records I quoted previous of Deerpark Kilrush RE#8755 is the dam of Deerpark Leader. The other Deepark Kidlysart 3rd reg#fnc299 is the dam of Deerpark Leader 8 that was at an AI stud.The information was in that AI catalogue.
In Sinclarir's book , History of Shorthorn cattle, you can read about the early Iish herds, mainly started by the rich English land barons, chapter xII, pages 507-577. What North America got when the Irish cattle arrived was much of the old Booth type of yesteryear, much the same that was imported to North America with the settlers... 'the farmer's cow' as they adverts use to read.
Previous someone had queried the Irish shorthorn color, red necked roans and light roans, all part of the color fabric of Shorthorns. North America seems to have the color craze still in their eye.
In Sinclarir's book , History of Shorthorn cattle, you can read about the early Iish herds, mainly started by the rich English land barons, chapter xII, pages 507-577. What North America got when the Irish cattle arrived was much of the old Booth type of yesteryear, much the same that was imported to North America with the settlers... 'the farmer's cow' as they adverts use to read.
Previous someone had queried the Irish shorthorn color, red necked roans and light roans, all part of the color fabric of Shorthorns. North America seems to have the color craze still in their eye.
justintime
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There were a few of the better Irish cattle that did make it to North America, especially near the start of the Irish importations. We imported the second set of Irish Shorthorns just a few weeks after BGR brought the first ones to Mankato, KS. We did not know about the cattle that had been imported by BGR until we had finalized our deal in Ireland. When we found out there were other Irish cattle in North America, we immediately headed to Kansas to see them. It was a very rememberable trip as we stopped at HUB Shorthorns as well and got to see this excellent herd. We also saw all the cattle BGR had imported. Johnny Hook was working at BGR at this time.
When we were selecting our cattle in Ireland, we were allowed to purchase any of the calves on the cows but we were only allowed to select a few of the females in production( and the prices were considerably higher than for the open females). We felt that Highfield Irish Mist was the best bull calf of his year in Ireland, and his mother Highfield Una, was amongst the very best females in that country. We purchased Irish Mist for $300 Canadian. We also selected the two females that we considered were the best there. They cost us $500 each. During the quarantine in Ireland, we were told that the females we had selected had failed their health tests. We were suspicious that the Kevin Culhane ( who seemed to have total control of all the breeders in that country, and had the final say into which animals could be sold and which could not) had decided that they were not going to leave Ireland. We told him that we would not accept the replacement females that he had selected, and after several negotiations with him, our original heifers suddenly " miraculously" passed their health tests and were able to come to Canada. They were quarantined for 2 months in Ireland and then were quarantined for 2 months at a quarantine station on an island in the St Lawrence River in Quebec, then an additional 2 months at a quarantine station near the Edmonton airport. Despite 6 months of quarantine, our total cost in importing Irish Mist was $2000 including his purchase price. The two females cost us $2200 each so we had $6400 wrapped up in bringing these cattle to Canada. Probably one of the best decisions we ever made! Two years later, American breeders were bringing plane loads over. The Irish breeders caught on fast. When we imported our second bull three years later, ( IDS Duke of Dublin) the purchase price was $25,000 and it cost us an additional $7000 to get him on Canadian soil. The following January, we displayed Duke of Dublin in front of the Exchange Building in the yards at Denver. During the week we were at the show, we got semen orders for more than what we had invested in him.
A few years later, when the importation of Irish cattle had slowed down substantially, John Maloney ( Highfield Shorthorns) phoned me one evening. He told me that he was in trouble with his banker, and that he needed to raise some money to pay him off. He offered me a deal where I could select 70 females from his herd and I could select from his entire herd except for 2 females. He said he would be willing to sell my pick of 70 females at $1500 Canadian dollars each. At first I told him, that I could not do this deal, but a few days later I started to think more about it. I contacted the owner of Flying Tigers Airlines from New York City, who specialized in transporting livestock around the world, and he said he would bring an entire planeload of these cattle to Edmonton Alberta for $32,000. With quarantine costs included, I was looking at $2200 per female. I decided to make some phone calls and see if it would be possible to sell some of these females to pay for some of the ones I wanted. After 3 nights on the phone, I had committments from several breeders for about 25 of these females at $ 4500 each. That left me with 45 females for a cost of $41,500. This sounded like a workable deal so I started making arrangements to fly to Ireland to select the 70 head of cattle. Before I had even got to the point of getting my plane ticket booked, I heard a rumor that Ireland was having some major issues with Brucellosis. I made some phone calls and after getting some vague answers, I decided to wait and not proceed with this deal. I just had a bad feeling from what I was being told. That was also one of the best decisions I ever made as the Highfield herd was quarantined within a couple months, and most of it ended up going to slaughter because of there being many brucellosis positive females. I think I would have had a real mess on my hands if I had got into the middle of this deal and found out that I owned a plane load of brucellosis carriers!
When we were selecting our cattle in Ireland, we were allowed to purchase any of the calves on the cows but we were only allowed to select a few of the females in production( and the prices were considerably higher than for the open females). We felt that Highfield Irish Mist was the best bull calf of his year in Ireland, and his mother Highfield Una, was amongst the very best females in that country. We purchased Irish Mist for $300 Canadian. We also selected the two females that we considered were the best there. They cost us $500 each. During the quarantine in Ireland, we were told that the females we had selected had failed their health tests. We were suspicious that the Kevin Culhane ( who seemed to have total control of all the breeders in that country, and had the final say into which animals could be sold and which could not) had decided that they were not going to leave Ireland. We told him that we would not accept the replacement females that he had selected, and after several negotiations with him, our original heifers suddenly " miraculously" passed their health tests and were able to come to Canada. They were quarantined for 2 months in Ireland and then were quarantined for 2 months at a quarantine station on an island in the St Lawrence River in Quebec, then an additional 2 months at a quarantine station near the Edmonton airport. Despite 6 months of quarantine, our total cost in importing Irish Mist was $2000 including his purchase price. The two females cost us $2200 each so we had $6400 wrapped up in bringing these cattle to Canada. Probably one of the best decisions we ever made! Two years later, American breeders were bringing plane loads over. The Irish breeders caught on fast. When we imported our second bull three years later, ( IDS Duke of Dublin) the purchase price was $25,000 and it cost us an additional $7000 to get him on Canadian soil. The following January, we displayed Duke of Dublin in front of the Exchange Building in the yards at Denver. During the week we were at the show, we got semen orders for more than what we had invested in him.
A few years later, when the importation of Irish cattle had slowed down substantially, John Maloney ( Highfield Shorthorns) phoned me one evening. He told me that he was in trouble with his banker, and that he needed to raise some money to pay him off. He offered me a deal where I could select 70 females from his herd and I could select from his entire herd except for 2 females. He said he would be willing to sell my pick of 70 females at $1500 Canadian dollars each. At first I told him, that I could not do this deal, but a few days later I started to think more about it. I contacted the owner of Flying Tigers Airlines from New York City, who specialized in transporting livestock around the world, and he said he would bring an entire planeload of these cattle to Edmonton Alberta for $32,000. With quarantine costs included, I was looking at $2200 per female. I decided to make some phone calls and see if it would be possible to sell some of these females to pay for some of the ones I wanted. After 3 nights on the phone, I had committments from several breeders for about 25 of these females at $ 4500 each. That left me with 45 females for a cost of $41,500. This sounded like a workable deal so I started making arrangements to fly to Ireland to select the 70 head of cattle. Before I had even got to the point of getting my plane ticket booked, I heard a rumor that Ireland was having some major issues with Brucellosis. I made some phone calls and after getting some vague answers, I decided to wait and not proceed with this deal. I just had a bad feeling from what I was being told. That was also one of the best decisions I ever made as the Highfield herd was quarantined within a couple months, and most of it ended up going to slaughter because of there being many brucellosis positive females. I think I would have had a real mess on my hands if I had got into the middle of this deal and found out that I owned a plane load of brucellosis carriers!
justintime
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In regards to some of the Irish Shorthorns not blood typing to typical Shorthorn blood types, I spoke with the head of the Blood Typing lab from Ohio State at the Graham Land and Livestock dispersal in Minnesota. He said that many of the Irish cattle had totally different blood types than any other cattle of any breed. Some had blood types closer to full blood Maines and there were some full blood Maines that bloodtyped as typical purebred Shprthorns.He told me that at that time there were 7 imported Maine Anjou bulls that blood typed with 100% typical Shorthorn blood types. He said that there was absolutely no way they could tell if they were Shorthorn or Maine by the blood type. I remember him saying that Dividend's blood type was very strange as it was very close to some horse blood types.It was totally non typical to any other bovine blood types they had seen at that time. These cattle were indeed very strange in many ways. This is why we argued to keep the Irish cattle in the appendix herd books and the Canadian breeders voted to put them in the closed herd books. I find it ironic that the people who imported these cattle were the only people who voted against putting the Irish cattle into the closed herd book . When this happened, I decided that it really did not matter whether an animal had an asterisk on it's pedigree or not as they were probably as pure or purer than many cattle in the closed herd books.
Another reason I felt that the Irish cattle should stay in the appendix herd book was simply because the Irish breeders had very little idea of what the pedigrees of these cattle were. There are lots of stories of Americans buying cattle in Ireland and the head of the Coates herd book hand writing out a pedigree for the cattle that were purchased. Personally, I saw many examples of this. On one occasion, I asked 3 Irish Breeders about the pedigree of a certain Irish animal, and I got three completely different pedigrees.I asked John Maloney on different occasions what some of his females were sired by, and he would say he would have to check with Kevin Culhane and find out who it was. Kevin Culhane had his own herd, but he seemed to be the "official" spokesman for several herds especially the Deerpark and Highfield herds. They could not even keep their records straight as there were three females named Highfield Kate 3rd. One was one of our original cows, another was in the Lazy D herd in Missouri, and one stayed in Ireland. Up until this time, I always thought the Coates herd book was the official "bible" for several of the British breeds. I found out it was not as "official" as I once thought.
Another reason I felt that the Irish cattle should stay in the appendix herd book was simply because the Irish breeders had very little idea of what the pedigrees of these cattle were. There are lots of stories of Americans buying cattle in Ireland and the head of the Coates herd book hand writing out a pedigree for the cattle that were purchased. Personally, I saw many examples of this. On one occasion, I asked 3 Irish Breeders about the pedigree of a certain Irish animal, and I got three completely different pedigrees.I asked John Maloney on different occasions what some of his females were sired by, and he would say he would have to check with Kevin Culhane and find out who it was. Kevin Culhane had his own herd, but he seemed to be the "official" spokesman for several herds especially the Deerpark and Highfield herds. They could not even keep their records straight as there were three females named Highfield Kate 3rd. One was one of our original cows, another was in the Lazy D herd in Missouri, and one stayed in Ireland. Up until this time, I always thought the Coates herd book was the official "bible" for several of the British breeds. I found out it was not as "official" as I once thought.
scotland
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atttached a picture of Deerpark Leader 12th, big white bull, taken after he won the Royal Dublin show in 1976, he would sire Moyglare President that was sent to the great Perth sale in 1978 topped it at 1400gns..... the other cattle pictured wil be true dairy Shorthorns , many pure Bates bred .
scotland
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r.n.reed
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Thanks for putting up that picture Scotland.The 12th sure looks like he fell off a different branch than most of the Irish cattle I have seen.
Justintime,Interesting comment on Dividends blood type being horse like.Tim Ohlde told me the Quane's had some fine Thoroughbreds,Do you think?
I also agree that most people have a very loose definition of what appendix free means.
Justintime,Interesting comment on Dividends blood type being horse like.Tim Ohlde told me the Quane's had some fine Thoroughbreds,Do you think?
I also agree that most people have a very loose definition of what appendix free means.
Okotoks
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That is a good looking white bull!
In the mid 80's when Maine Anjou were being promoted for acceptance in the CSA herd book my wife, Jill did some resarch. In talking to some very recognized people at bloodtyping labs she was informed that Maine Anjou and Shorthorn had almost identical blood groups and in may cases it would be impossible to discern the difference.(Since the original Maine Anjou had about 66% shorthorn contribution to it's makeup this makes some sense) The blood types of Shorthorn and Salers were very different. It was also mentioned that some Angus bulls had blood groups that had only been found in Holstein but the influence of the bulls involved was so great the Angus Association chose to ignore the results of the bulls in question.
I personally don't think Dividend's blood type being horselike would be a scientific observation! ???
In the mid 80's when Maine Anjou were being promoted for acceptance in the CSA herd book my wife, Jill did some resarch. In talking to some very recognized people at bloodtyping labs she was informed that Maine Anjou and Shorthorn had almost identical blood groups and in may cases it would be impossible to discern the difference.(Since the original Maine Anjou had about 66% shorthorn contribution to it's makeup this makes some sense) The blood types of Shorthorn and Salers were very different. It was also mentioned that some Angus bulls had blood groups that had only been found in Holstein but the influence of the bulls involved was so great the Angus Association chose to ignore the results of the bulls in question.
I personally don't think Dividend's blood type being horselike would be a scientific observation! ???
jaimiediamond
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Genetically speaking Equines and Bovines don't have many notable markers that are similar at all. If Dividend was a anonomaly he would have been used as a genetic example.
r.n.reed
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I remember being shown a pamphlet produced by the Irish ag society I believe that explained the Irish ''scheme'' to revitalize shorthorn in Ireland.The plan was to use the predominately dairy Shorthorns of Ireland as a base and introduce Red and White Holstein,Simmental, Meuse Rhein Issel [I hope I spelled that right]which was explained as a German branch of the Maine Anjou breed.I saw this in the 70's but couldn't tell you at what point it was implemented but it could help explain the variation in blood types.Maybe we should ad asterisks to all the pedigrees that have Irish in them that are being touted as pure.
I also heard about an Irish bull that had a blood type more typical to horses. When I visited the Lazy D herd in 1982, picking out Lazy D Ultimate Type, Richard Dolginow offered me the opportunity to use a bull named Leprocaun (sp?) He was of Improver descent, and was white with a black nose. His skin also appeared to be of darker pigmentation than I was used to in a white bull. Richard and his herdsman, Larry, both told me that his blood type had come back non-typical with a comment that it was similar to a blood type generally found in horses. Strange, I know, but that's what I was told.
