Top 10 Shorthorn Cow Families

[peachy]

Justintime you need to write a book. I am serious, I would buy it!

 

[Doc]

Missie Ruth, Irish Lassie, Scarlets, Margie, Green Ridge Robin, Rose T90, Bonnie Ruberta,

 

[oakbar]

I haven't been in the Shorthorn business near as long as some of you so my perspective is a little different but I have always thought the Mona Lisa 35L cow would be excellent in just about every decade forward or back.  She's always the first one I think of when I'm asked about the ideal cow.    As many of you know, I'm also a fan of the Myrtle Bo, Augusta Pride, 10 Queens, and Picture Perfect lines as well.    Many of the others mentioned are excellent, too---the strength of the maternal lines is what really intrigued me about the Shorthorns from the start.  It still amazes me!!

 

[Hilltop]

Justintime you need to write a book. I am serious, I would buy it!

So would we. Actually we would need 4 books! One that each of us would wear out trying to memorize and 1 to keep and put away. Maybe we could send Sadie with you on the road trip and she could start taking notes to send to the publisher.

 

[sue]

Davis pretty well covered the bases-what about the Margies-cant forget the influence of  Irish cattle-(shes not the only one-and really was already a cross being sired by Duke of Swisher and the original Shannon Margie ) But there were several families that had a huge influence: Kimmillhlls-Dear Park Tulip-(Leggs Dam)-Deerpark Scarlet-and a bunch of others  Arguably-the most influential in numbers would be the Kaba Rose-deal-who went back (many times)to Dividend Improver-fullblood maine-and a bunch of thick Canadian breeding(looked like Louada influence) Farrers Main Doner is a sow with that broad head and muzzle-that reminds me of those Louada  cattle when I saw them at the eastern National in 1962-I believe it was.

Mark I am so glad you mention LOUADA. I love those catalogs and most of them are marked too. Grandpa/Dad purchased alot of bulls there - Wib Donaldson is a legend and I was so glad to met him in person in the 90's. Dad said Wib never liked polled Shorthorns as much as horned.

 

[justintime]

Back in the 60s, there was no major Junior shows to drive cattle sales, like they do today, but Louada was able to develop a similar atmosphere. Rather than grown ups trying to buy heifers for their kids and grand kids that they thought might win, grown ups competed between themselves, to buy the top bulls and females in the Louada sales. Many of the Louada sales had averages that would look great today. There were lots of animals selling for $10,000 -$20,000 with an occasional bull selling for more.
When I was 16 years old, I had the pleasure to go to Louada and stay with Wib Donaldson and his wife for 3 days. Gary Latimer( Remitall) and myself, delivered the first Polled Herefords to Louada. Louada still had it's Shorthorn herd, and I remember Denend Constellation was out breeding cows. The $30,000 Louada Bonaparte was still at the farm, as was the $19500 Louada Zenith who had topped the Louada sale a few months previous. Bonaparte had sold to Argentina and they were in the process of getting him ready for the trip there by boat. I remember the Louada farm being a show place and I have often wondered what happened to the farm after the Donaldson's passed away.It was one little piece of heaven on earth. There was a lake on one farm which had a beautiful guest house on it, that most people would love to live in forever. The fences were painted white and everything was pin neat. Louada was a place where many young cattle people from around the world went to learn about breeding cattle. I remember there being two young men from Argentina as well as two from Scotland, one from the US and one from Australia being employed at Louada on that visit. I also remember hearing that these employees were paid very little to work there, and their families paid their trips both ways. Most were sent to Louada just for work experience and the opportunity to work beside one of the great breeders of the day, before they returned to work on their own families breeding operations. I wonder how many kids today would agree to go work for next to nothing today, just for the experience. There are probably lots !

Louada was established by Louis Cadesky, who was a major league industrialist, who developed gold mines. The story goes that Cadesky had been bankrupt 8 times in his adult life, but he always had the best lawyers and accountants he could find working for him, so he was always able to re-establish himself. Wib Donaldson was Cadesky's farm manager, and when Cadesky died, Wib was gifted the Louada Farms. The name Louada was a combination of Louis and Ada Cadesky's names.

There was a time when you looked through a Shorthorn World ( the breed magazine before Shorthorn Country) there was hardly a page where there was not an ad that listed a Louada bull or a son of a Louada bull as a herd sire. Wib went on to develop a powerful Polled Hereford herd after the Shorthorns were dispersed, and it enjoys good success, however, it never achieved the status of the Shorthorn herd.

Getting back to the trip we made to Louada, I am oftentimes amazed when I think about it. Gary Latimer and I were both 16 years old and we had both just had our driver's licence a few short months. The morning after Remitall dispersed their Shorthorn herd, I remember Louis Latimer asking my dad if he would allow me to help Gary deliver cattle literally close to 2800 miles across Canada. For some reason my dad agreed to this, and I should ask him about that decision some day.( after all we were both only 16 years old) Gary and I left the following morning with a full load of cattle in a special built Fargo truck with a 34 ft box on it ( we found out later on that trip that the truck was 4 ft too long for legal driving in Ontario, when we were stopped by the police and held in custody for 4 hours while they decided what they were going to do with us... they eventually allowed us to leave as we were within 200 miles of the Ontario border, but they made us promise that we would never return to Ontario. I have broken that promise more than a few times since ).

The load consisted of both Shorthorns from the dispersal, and Polled Herefords going to Louada. We made several stops through Alberta and Saskatchewan at both Shorthorn and Polled Hereford farms. We bought cattle( mostly bulls) at almost every stop. Remitall had a policy of buying bulls from breeders who purchased herd bulls from them. They had a couple of bull dealers in Idaho and Oregon, that they shipped these bulls to, and they re-sold them. Some of the best bulls were retained and developed at Remitall and resold from there.  On the trip back to Alberta we stopped at these farms where we had purchased the cattle and loaded them, so we were literally full of cattle in both directions. I remember loading 5 Polled Hereford bred heifers at a well know breeder of the day, in Manitoba using a block and tackle that was connected to a chain that we hooked to a tractor. We backed the truck up to a manure pile and we haltered the heifers in the barn and pulled them to the truck with the tractor. Once we got them close enough we connected the block and tackle to the halter and hooked the tractor to the block and tackle. Once we got the front end of the heifers high enough we all got behind them and literally pushed and lifted them into the truck. This all took place while we had to keep the cattle in the truck from jumping out. If I remember correctly we were most part of an afternoon loading 5 heifers. Gary paid this guy for these heifer in cash, and I remember him telling him to use the money to build a loading chute.

Not only am I amazed that we made this trip when we were both 16 years old, but I am amazed that the entire trip was done in cash. There was no such thing as a credit card or a debit card in those days. I have no idea how much cash we were carrying, as we had enough to buy gas, meals, motels, repairs, and even paid cash for some of the cattle we purchased. Those were the good old days......

 

[Ric]

Sable, Myrtle Bo, Augusta Pride, Mona Lisa, Cherri, Mirage

 

[chiguy]

Justintime-

Really enjoyed your trip down memory lane with the story on Louada Farms.  Like you, as a youngster  I always followed with great interest the Louada program as well as Remitall, Scotsdale, and Aberfeldy.  It was not until 1970 and 5 years after graduating from college that I got the opportunity to attend a Louada sale and meet Wib Donaldson.  We bought a daughter of Denend Constellation and took delivery of her at the  International Livestock show.  Being a dye in the wool Shorthorn fan, my only disappointment in the trip was the fact that the best cow I saw at Louada was one of the Remitall Poll Herefords.  But I do remember that the most famous cows at Louada were Blood Royal 33rd and Blood Royal 34th with the nod going to Blood Royal 33.  And you were absolutely correct about the immaculate farm layout and the Lodge on Pidgeon Lake where the pre-sale parties were held.  This Kid from Mississippi had never seen such a layout of unusual foods in his life. Definately not a "peas and cornbred' affair.  Regrettably, I no longer have any of the Louada sale catalogs with the great pasture scene photos by Jim Rose nor any idea of the directions to the farm.  I just remember it was north of Fowlers Corner and Bridgenorth and close to an Ojibway Indian Village.  I have often tried to locate it on Google earth without any luck.  Thanks again

 

[Okotoks]

Justintime-

Really enjoyed your trip down memory lane with the story on Louada Farms.  Like you, as a youngster  I always followed with great interest the Louada program as well as Remitall, Scotsdale, and Aberfeldy.  It was not until 1970 and 5 years after graduating from college that I got the opportunity to attend a Louada sale and meet Wib Donaldson.  We bought a daughter of Denend Constellation and took delivery of her at the  International Livestock show.  Being a dye in the wool Shorthorn fan, my only disappointment in the trip was the fact that the best cow I saw at Louada was one of the Remitall Poll Herefords.  But I do remember that the most famous cows at Louada were Blood Royal 33rd and Blood Royal 34th with the nod going to Blood Royal 33.  And you were absolutely correct about the immaculate farm layout and the Lodge on Pidgeon Lake where the pre-sale parties were held.  This Kid from Mississippi had never seen such a layout of unusual foods in his life. Definately not a "peas and cornbred' affair.   Regrettably, I no longer have any of the Louada sale catalogs with the great pasture scene photos by Jim Rose nor any idea of the directions to the farm.  I just remember it was north of Fowlers Corner and Bridgenorth and close to an Ojibway Indian Village.  I have often tried to locate it on Google earth without any luck.  Thanks again

I have some of the Louada catalogues although I only ever dreamed of going to one of their sales. I will try to scan a couple of photos from one sometime so others can see the amazing place and presentation. The uniformity and eye appeal was amazing. The Ka'Ba Rose T90 goes back to Louada breeding including the Blood Royal 33rd twice. Would any females of the Blood Royal line still be in existence? Another female line I think should be added are the Clippers. They were famous in Amos Cruickshanks herd and at Collynie. Many of the famous Scotch herd bulls were out of Clippers. We have descendants in our herd but the names were changed to Dottie and May in the 1960's. I believe JT has Clippers and there are probably lots of other Clipper descendants but with different names. Scotsdale had a Clipper branch of this family and we have a couple that go back that line that have always carried the Clipper name.

 

[irishshorthorns]

I think the key to this post guys is in the title 'Cow Families'! Whilst one outstanding female may have brought a particular tribe to breeders' attention, you know the old saying 'one swallow doesn't make a summer'. In my opinion , to qualify for consideration a cow family must have made an outstanding contribution to the breed, not just in the last 20 years, but preceeding thirty or forty. It's amazing reading the posts how great herds like Eionmor and Alta Cedar and their great matron lines were totally glossed over, the Irish Highfield and Deerpark herds' main cow families didn't fair much better either, barely getting a mention. It really is true what they say 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

irishshorthorns, please forgive me. I have only been in this deal since 1999. Can you elaborate on the families you mentioned and why you feel they were not given their due?  What are your top families?

 

[irishshorthorns]

Well for starters not a mention of the Deerpark Kilrush line which produced the original Deerpark Leader who was born  in 1967, and how about the Deerpark Strawberry line? It's just amazing to me how breeders also change a family line name at a whim and try and make it sound more 'showbiz'. Don't get me wrong, this isn't just confined to the Shorthorn herdbook. Angus breeders are far worse offenders. I know several large Canadian breeders who will buy in a line and rename it to make it fit in with their current 'sexy' and 'in-fashion' tribe. I'm not going to give you guys any more help but I had better see a vast improvement in you offerings before I return here in 24 hours time. Get the finger out and start thinking guys. I know you can do this. Also a prize for the most criminal family name change, and ridiculously named 'modern' cow tribe

 

[justintime]

irishshorthorn, I agree with you in regards to people who change cow family names. As I mentioned earlier, I truly believe that the great cow families should not be changed. This does not mean that every female in a particular cow lin e is a good one, but when I see a female from the Augusta, Myrtle, Minnie, Kildysart, Strawberry and numerous other cow familes, I know this female is worthy of a second look.

 

[JTM]

All I know is that most of the cow families being mentioned have a lot of Maine Anjou and Milking Shorthorn genetics. 

 

[Okotoks]

The first family at Eionmor would be the Ruby's. They came from AE Cross's,  A7 Ranch and Sandy Cross's  Rothney Farms. Great cow family's produce great bulls and the Ruby's have done this.
There are a lot of female lines that have produced many show heifers that are sought after but one seldom sees a bull from them.

 

[GONEWEST]

Two things.

First Grant must be 300 years old. Who has done and seen as much as him? I could read his writing all day I think and I wish he'd write a book.

Two, just for debate, I'd like to offer another idea. "Cow Families" are nothing more than a marketing / promotional tool that have no genetic or mathematical base in fact. Approximately 96.9% (31/32) of the genetics any given animal carries can be attributed to the first 5 SIRES in his maternal line. The animal that is 5 generations away from the original cow, whether it be Myrtle Bo or Bo Diddly, carries only 3.1% of it's genes that can be attributed to that "matriarch" cow. As an example,  you take Myrtle Bo and I take Bo Diddly who is a nice cow, just not the hype of Myrtle Bo. Each of us make 5 generations worth of sire selections. You make 3 out of 5 good ones and I make 5 good matings and my animal will trump (   ) yours every time. EVERY TIME. Another example, Grant gives me one of those two heifers he just bought out of that awesome cow. I make poor mating choices and he makes good ones for say 2 succeeding generations.  Who will have the better animal? Of course he will.  What if that third generation he produces is an Agribition Champion or maybe that one produces several and all mine have to go to the sale barn? Is that a great cow family? I don't see the logic that would point to that since the difference in the production came from the sires that were used. I don't see a logical way to debate any of the above statements. That is not to be confused as saying that Myrtle Bo won't produce a better animal when mated to the same bull than Bo Diddly. It's not to say that there are no genetically superior females. Obviously there are cows that have better calves than others. Doesn't mean that emphasis shouldn't be placed on buying females out of great mothers, of course they should.  However, if you make more than one poor breeding decision and sometimes only one, all you will produce is just a cow. I don't care what her name is or who her grand mama was.  It is saying that the farther the apple falls from the tree the better the branches have to be to make the tree look good. Is every Augusta Pride good? Of course not. What's the difference? Sire lineage.

The parallel with Thoroughbred horse breeders is the "tail female." Recognizing that these great mares have little influence alone several generations away, it is a common practice try to incorporate matings that trace back to these several identified mares 4 or 5 times in an effort to multiply her genetic contribution to the matings resulting offspring. Of course the most important trait in horse racing are much easier to identify than in cattle breeding since there is only one goal. The only thing that really matters is first one to the finish line. So identifying those mares that TRULY make the contribution needed is much easier and is backed by data that goes back many, many generations. Even so, multiplying that superior animals gentetics is found to be important, not just descending from that mare.

The first time I read this argument was in 1980 from a Hoards Dairyman. A professor had written a piece about how Holstein breeders relied on cow families for marketing purposes and stacking great sires to make genetic progress. His argument was that the quality of an animal cannot be attributed to a great, great, great grand dam when they had used every tool known to man to make mating decisions using the most proven sires one after another. Yet every marketing opportunity they extolled the virtues of the "cow family" when it was the selection of sires that made the difference in the product. Made sense then, makes sense now. Not a popular position with marketers, romantics or historians, but one I believe is based in fact. Sorry, not meant to throw cold water on anything, just an idea I think is worth exploring.

 

[justintime]

Gonewest, don't make me older than I actually am. I am only 200 years old( plus or minus a few). After this many years, who can keep an accurate count! I know that after trying to sort about 50 head of cows ( 35 set up as recips and another 15 sync'd to AI in this mud, I feel older than 300. This is the wettest I can ever remember and they say it is the wettest this country has been since they started keeping records in the late 1800s. There is virtually water coming out of the ground in some places, and there has been very little crop even seeded this year. Two days ago, my neighbour and his son attempted to seed some and between the two of them, they got the tractors stuck 29 times. They had a third 4 wheel drive tractor in the field with a extra long tow rope and he never had a break all day. We had another 1.5 inches again yesterday and I think we can offically say that seeding and harvest are over for this year, for many in this area.

Back to the topic at hand, regarding cow families. I agree with everything Gonewest has said about cow families. I agree that the genetics of the top 5 sires in any female, regardless of the cow family, will determine their breeding value. I does seem to me, that many of the great breeding sires come from great cow families. I have seen some females from good  cow lines that have been abused with some really bad breeding choices by their owners yet they continue to produce the best offfspring in the herd. It just seems to me, that the really good cow families have a history of producing better than average offspring and this can be traced back for many generations. I remember when we were importing Irish Shorthorns from Ireland, Kevin Culhane and Ned Quane both told us that the Kildysart cow family were the great herd sire producers, and I think that many of the best breeding Irish sires came from this cow lineage. They both also said that some other cow families produced better females such as the Strawberry and Kimilhil's for example. If you look at many of the historic herds in North America, in most any breed, the best breeding animals come from the best cow families. Just being from a great cow family does not make a female a great producer, but I do think that she does have a better than average chance of producing good offspring in mated properly.

As for what I have seen and done, I am no smarter than anyone else, and if I did write a book, the chapters about my failures would be much longer than my successes. My entire life has been in involved in the beef business, and I have been in most parts of it. I have been a purebred breeder in several breeds, operated a feedlot,and been a livestock dealer and order buyer. Even what I call a holiday, involves dragging a stock trailer across the country delivering cattle ( at least my wife thinks this!)

 

[irishshorthorns]

I've heard it all now. Gonewest remarked;
"Cow Families" are nothing more than a marketing / promotional tool that have no genetic or mathematical base in fact.
[/quote].    Gonewest, I think you've gone a little too far west. I think you're so far west you can taste salt water. Firstly, how can any logical and rational argument about cattle breeding start of with the line quoted above? We all know, and or, have seen, many herds where one particular line consistently breeds the best. I'm sure we've all gone to sales, whether on farm or at public markets, where a vendor may offer a hundred bulls who genetically may be up to 87.5% or more common blood, sharing a sire, paternal and maternal grandsires, the only difference being the cow family of origin. And I'M sure we've all remarked how the progeny of one particular line, however small in number, may offer the best progeny. The most prominent example of this for me was walking the barns at the World Angus Forum. Many large and noted herds had quite large strings of cattle, both for display and showing purposes. Without fail, when looking at the catalogues, the main and important cow families were always the ones which had the look which made you take notice. This can not merely be coincidence can it?????? Nature breaks out through the eyes of a cat, isn't that what they say?

 

[Endless Meadows]

Some pretty good cow lines that have been mentioned.  I went back and looked at some of the better cows I have.  Augusta and Margie seem to show up a lot.  I think Sue mentioned the Jane Mary's and I know Rosewood was brought up.  I was kind of surprised the Golden Chain's haven't been mentioned.  I have always been pretty high on the Nann's and Lassie's.  Any thoughts on the Brenda Cow family?  as far as a favorite goes, I didn't get a chance to see the cow, but I really liked alot of the cattle that came from Gordon Brockmueller's White Rose Cow.

 

[oakview]

I agree with many of the names mentioned for best cow families, however, many of the more recent ones are limited to donor duty and are ET products themselves.  To me, to qualify as a great cow, she needs to have raised several noteworthy calves herself.  If the descendants continue to be noteworthy producers, after a few generations the cow family could qualify.  Sable 01 has been mentioned by a few.  I have seen many, many offspring of 01 that were outstanding.  However, is she capable of raising calves by herself or does more of the credit for the calf's success go to the recip (obviously not including the genetic capability).  I'm not picking on Sable 01, I like her and her offspring, just using her as a noteworthy example of how in many cases the actual producition ability of a cow could actually be unknown.  I like to talk to breeders and see just what cows actually are doing the dirty work in their herd.  When allowed to produce for themselves, which cow families can consistently bring in the best calves year after year?  Ideally, those are the lines we are multiplying.  I have accumulated several females from the lines mentioned earlier (did I miss someone mentioning Lucky Charm?).  For the most part, the Nobody's Fool descendants have done the best job of consistently raising top level calves by themelves.  I have a Trump X Equity Fool 88 cow, full sister to my Big Jake bull, that has raised one of my very top few calves each year.  My other Fool family cows also do well.  Perhaps one of the pitfalls of so much ET work done with our show winning females is that we lose the important knowledge of just what these females can do.  Are we propagating them just because they look good?