He did ask every kid the question about the college, along with one question regarding their animal. It would be pretty scary if he was on the hill in Denver, doesn't sort cattle very well either. Being involved in showing cattle over 40 years, this was by far the worst thing I have seen happen to the kids who put the work in on their projects.
Unprofessionalism
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DLD
Well-known member
thespn67 said:
The question about the college in itself is not bad. That kind of question has a purpose - to ask an easy, no wrong answer kind of question to get the kids loosened up and talking. If he used the answer to sift all the kids who disagreed with his preference of colleges, it is indeed wrong, but if not, it's a complete non-issue.
aj
Well-known member
I love cattle shows.......I don't watch the cattle. I watch the people.It is fascinating......an anthropological display of human behavior.
We are new enough to showing that what I perceive as unprofessionalisam and unfairness still bother me very much. Something happens at every show we go to that gets my water hot but I'm learning more and more every day. It's a tough realization that even though my world revolves around my kids the show world doesn't. Some things are not fair and while it's natural to want to defend my kids sometimes I just have to accept things as they are and move on. Competition brings out the best and the worst in people and aj you are correct. It's the same with kids sports. Rarely is watching a high school football game as entertaining as watching the people(parents)watching the game.
County Fair is a very challenging show. It seems that every year something happens that rubs me the wrong way. It is rarely something that would cause me to stage an uproar. It is just the type of thing that doesn't sit well with me.
There is one thing that is done at our County that just makes me shake my head. If it is a kids last year, they announce it every single time the kid comes into the ring. So there you are in the Champion Drive, and the announcer introduces each exhibitor as they lead into the ring. "Next up is the Class 3 winner...this is ______'s last chance at the Grand Champion. He/She will be attending college at wherever this fall." I appreciate the recognition for the kid, but don't think the judge should have that information when standing there scratching their head to pick their winner. 2 of 3 years, a kid in their final year has won the show. I say why not recognize these kids AFTER the show is over? I will probably feel different when it is my kids getting that recognition, or if we beat them. Pretty lame reasoning I know.
When I started coaching Girls Fast Pitch Softball many years ago, we started playing in the lowest division which is called Class C in our State. Every tournament we went to was a fiasco. Someone was always arguing or bickering about something. I would have to produce Birth Certificates to prove age, or get out my score book to prove a player was actually on my team.
As the years went on, we eventually were re-classified into the highest division. All of the bickering and whining went away. You went to the tournament, played the games, you either won or lost, and you went on. Nobody seemed to bicker or complain about things that were really of no consequence...in the broad scope of things.
I believe a County Fair is sort of like low division sports, and big Prospect Shows or State Fairs are more like high division sports. You go to the show, do your best, and you pack up your stuff and go home...with or without a banner. It is just less brain damage.
I personally believe that with a few weeks separation from the Fair, you will look back on it and chuckle...and go on.
There is one thing that is done at our County that just makes me shake my head. If it is a kids last year, they announce it every single time the kid comes into the ring. So there you are in the Champion Drive, and the announcer introduces each exhibitor as they lead into the ring. "Next up is the Class 3 winner...this is ______'s last chance at the Grand Champion. He/She will be attending college at wherever this fall." I appreciate the recognition for the kid, but don't think the judge should have that information when standing there scratching their head to pick their winner. 2 of 3 years, a kid in their final year has won the show. I say why not recognize these kids AFTER the show is over? I will probably feel different when it is my kids getting that recognition, or if we beat them. Pretty lame reasoning I know.
When I started coaching Girls Fast Pitch Softball many years ago, we started playing in the lowest division which is called Class C in our State. Every tournament we went to was a fiasco. Someone was always arguing or bickering about something. I would have to produce Birth Certificates to prove age, or get out my score book to prove a player was actually on my team.
As the years went on, we eventually were re-classified into the highest division. All of the bickering and whining went away. You went to the tournament, played the games, you either won or lost, and you went on. Nobody seemed to bicker or complain about things that were really of no consequence...in the broad scope of things.
I believe a County Fair is sort of like low division sports, and big Prospect Shows or State Fairs are more like high division sports. You go to the show, do your best, and you pack up your stuff and go home...with or without a banner. It is just less brain damage.
I personally believe that with a few weeks separation from the Fair, you will look back on it and chuckle...and go on.
knabe
Well-known member
Just think of the politics at the bake contests.
County fairs are really about selling your animal.
The show is just a bonus.
The fair should be about having fun. Nothing else.
To me, its sort of a show to get little kids started, with the adults around for a little shoulder rubbing between local producers. How this got totally out of hand is a complete waste of time and focus.
Its sort of like parents arguing at little league. The kids are all embarrassed and would really just like the parents to leave for spoiling all the fun.
County fairs are really about selling your animal.
The show is just a bonus.
The fair should be about having fun. Nothing else.
To me, its sort of a show to get little kids started, with the adults around for a little shoulder rubbing between local producers. How this got totally out of hand is a complete waste of time and focus.
Its sort of like parents arguing at little league. The kids are all embarrassed and would really just like the parents to leave for spoiling all the fun.
Parents have to concentrate on shutting up and not telling their kids how bad they got screwed. You automatically program your kids to think the world is against them. If you leave the kids alone, most will have a good time being with their buddies and not worry nearly as much about results as parents do.
inthebarnagain
Well-known member
chambero said:
Well said Chambero.
DLD
Well-known member
chambero said:
Yep
When left alone, and the parental complaining at a minimum kids are fine with how things go. Our county fair can last from 8 days to 11 just depends on how the 4Th of July falls, so there is alto of down time for the kids, they have to be there at 6 to clean and feed, at 5 in the afternoon for the same. They all get 2 hours barn duty, except for show days, their all in the barn already so why assign barn duty.
We go get Ice cream at 8, stop and visit with the person on barn duty and the kids water their steers one more time, make sure they are OK, clean up after them. in between all that they could careless about the winning and losing, our kids get more worked up when they lose the whiffle ball game to the other club.
After the show you can see the kids who got beat with the kids who won out having fun to gether, they may be playing whiffle ball (we had to make sure the camper had at least 2 bats and a new pack of ball before we left for the fair), a water balloon fight, hiking down to the lagoon to do a little fishing, they may be playing cards or just running around being kids. There is no tension, hard feelings, or animosity between them, they enjoy being kids and doing kid things. You will see the kids who did not win helping the kids who did win getting ready for champion drive, if the parents would act more like the kids everyone would enjoy the fair and shows more.
When a kid gets truly hosed you do not have to tell them, or anyone else, everyone knows it, that is the time as a parent you need to lift them up and explain that it happens, but you can not let it discourage them, they know that they did everything right and it did not work out, next year will be different. Life is full of those moments, it is how we pick ourselves up and move forward the defines us, not how loud we complain about it.
As far as their last year: it has been my experience that by their last year, the kids that want to compete know what it takes, spend that little bit extra to put them into position to compete and put in the extra work to give them selves a shot at winning. My boys last few years he was up there, we were better at feeding, selecting cattle, and he had become a better showman. I also noticed the barn blindness had completely left us, you are more critical of your cattle, hope their faults are not bad enough to hold them back, when you first start it seems you only see the animals attributes and overlook their faults.
We go get Ice cream at 8, stop and visit with the person on barn duty and the kids water their steers one more time, make sure they are OK, clean up after them. in between all that they could careless about the winning and losing, our kids get more worked up when they lose the whiffle ball game to the other club.
After the show you can see the kids who got beat with the kids who won out having fun to gether, they may be playing whiffle ball (we had to make sure the camper had at least 2 bats and a new pack of ball before we left for the fair), a water balloon fight, hiking down to the lagoon to do a little fishing, they may be playing cards or just running around being kids. There is no tension, hard feelings, or animosity between them, they enjoy being kids and doing kid things. You will see the kids who did not win helping the kids who did win getting ready for champion drive, if the parents would act more like the kids everyone would enjoy the fair and shows more.
When a kid gets truly hosed you do not have to tell them, or anyone else, everyone knows it, that is the time as a parent you need to lift them up and explain that it happens, but you can not let it discourage them, they know that they did everything right and it did not work out, next year will be different. Life is full of those moments, it is how we pick ourselves up and move forward the defines us, not how loud we complain about it.
As far as their last year: it has been my experience that by their last year, the kids that want to compete know what it takes, spend that little bit extra to put them into position to compete and put in the extra work to give them selves a shot at winning. My boys last few years he was up there, we were better at feeding, selecting cattle, and he had become a better showman. I also noticed the barn blindness had completely left us, you are more critical of your cattle, hope their faults are not bad enough to hold them back, when you first start it seems you only see the animals attributes and overlook their faults.
CJB said:
I agree with chambero, that we do not (as parents) ever tell our kids they got hosed. HOWEVER, I believe it is perfectly fine to talk about what we thought about the show. Often times I will ask my kids if they liked the steer that won, and how they would change the winning steer in order to fit their own liking a little more. We also discuss our calves, and what it was about them that did not suit the judges ideas of ideal. What we always discuss is what it was that the judge was looking for, because there is a very good chance that we will see that judge again. My kids are entitled to their own opinion of what they like in a show steer, and they have earned the right to disagree.
I also agree with vc, in that the fun of this MUST go beyond the show ring itself. HOWEVER, there also needs to be SOME emphasis placed on winning...competing. There needs to be some type of motivation to wake up in the dark every morning, go rinse and blow, brush and comb, put them in the cooler, check on them 5 times a day, get them out of the cooler mid day, rinse and blow, brush and comb, put them BACK in the cooler, go back out, get them out of the cooler, rinse and blow, brush and comb, walk them, work them with the show stick, feed them, clean out the cooler, and get it ready to do all over again the next morning...which starts in 6 hours. The motivation MUST be more than the evenings at the carnival or the water balloon fight. Those things are important because they are part of "enjoying" the experience of their hard work. However, I prefer it not to overshadow the fact that I want my kids to understand what it means to compete.
The "real world" is about winning and competing. It is about being the best. There are no participation medals in the "real world". My household has an income of ZERO until I win over a new customer in my business, or earn the business of a repeat customer. My household budget depends upon winning, or at the very least competing (because sometimes I don't have to "win" based upon my reputation or track record with a customer). My kids understand this, which is why they ask me how many cars we sold today, or this week. They also understand that the reason we are showing cattle is because I want them to learn the importance of competition as well as what it means to make a long term commitment to something. We do not farm or raise cattle...there is no "take over the family farm" option for my kids. There is however a "take over the car dealership that our dad started" option, and I can think of NO better training for that option than showing cattle at a COMPETITIVE level.
There are just SO many great lessons built into this hobby, and I am so proud that I have been able to give my kids the opportunity to learn these lessons......as I did when I was their age. And guys, if it was just about the fun of it, we would show rabbits.
This post is really not a whole lot different than the uproar that came after Fort Worth a couple years ago. A judge handled himself in a manner that was really not acceptable to many of the exhibitors or families that participated in that show. Was he "justifiably" right when it came time to slap the Champion...probably so? But my were people HOT about his methods. Everyone is looking for something different in terms of what they are hoping to accomplish by showing cattle.
Maybe we should all show rabbits. There will still be winners and losers, but the time demands are so much less that the disappointment in the show ring won't sting nearly as bad.
These are just my feelings, and by no means am I implying that anyone is wrong for feeling the way that they do.
tallcool1, I bet you do not go around screaming when you don't get a new customer or loose one to a competitor, you work on what you could have done better to keep or earn a new customer.
You find out what your competitors are doing and then work on doing it better than they do.
The fair is the reward, if you put in the work at home then show should be easy, since we're blow and go it is easy to see who did and who did not.
Competition is great, wanting to win is as well, expecting to win everytime, and then getting upset or blaming others when you don't is where I see a problem. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and work harder is what I tell them. Just like when my Pop Warner team got run over by a better team.
I told the boy I helped the last few years this early on, as long as you have done all you can, but in the work, did not take days off or skip your routine, then win or lose you did your best, and all you can do is your best.
My best Friend who I coached with had a saying, he used it often, "excuses are the patches that mend the garments of failure" not sure where he got that saying from but I catch myself repeating it sometimes when the need arises.
You find out what your competitors are doing and then work on doing it better than they do.
The fair is the reward, if you put in the work at home then show should be easy, since we're blow and go it is easy to see who did and who did not.
Competition is great, wanting to win is as well, expecting to win everytime, and then getting upset or blaming others when you don't is where I see a problem. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and work harder is what I tell them. Just like when my Pop Warner team got run over by a better team.
I told the boy I helped the last few years this early on, as long as you have done all you can, but in the work, did not take days off or skip your routine, then win or lose you did your best, and all you can do is your best.
My best Friend who I coached with had a saying, he used it often, "excuses are the patches that mend the garments of failure" not sure where he got that saying from but I catch myself repeating it sometimes when the need arises.
I think the point has been missed for the most part. I am old , but yet i can recall most everything a judge said about how I did , or about a certain steer or heifer some 40 years later. Why because i respected their opinion because they were respected people from the industry i hoped to be a part of some day, and no i don't mean the show industry. As the new "old" generation we should take upon our selves to try and save what ever little bit of respect remains in that setting. Not everybody is whining about their kid getting beat when they bring stuff like this up. No i don't have a pony in this race , but I did hear from quite a few that this all did take place. I don't think teaching kids respect for each other ,their efforts , or the industry is to much to ask. And for the record I don't think liking Iowa or Iowa State should be a determining factor in showmanship.
mooch said:
I have read your post 5 times, and have actually learned a couple things from it. Maybe I should say that I have been enlightened to a different way of thinking. You sound like a wise "old" man.
What I don't understand is what your take is on the thread. Are you saying that this judge needs to be respected because he is the judge, or are you saying the judge needs to respect the industry and not do what he has done?
I like what Rober and VC said about there being more to it than the actual show. I am with Clint as well. And I certainly don't feel that anyone should be running around screaming.
However, I take exception to this "Competition is great, wanting to win is as well, expecting to win everytime, and then getting upset or blaming others when you don't is where I see a problem. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and work harder is what I tell them. Just like when my Pop Warner team got run over by a better team."
When you go to sell something, when you go to play something, when you go to build something, you better be expecting to "win every time." You get an A in school if you get 90% of the questions right. If you get 90% of a building correct it will fall and crush everything inside of it. Your analogy with the coaches and Pop Warner thing doesn't translate to showing livestock because those are winners determined objectively. Who ever has the most points wins or whomever crosses the finish line first wins. Showing livestock determines winners by opinion at best and political choice at worst. Athletics teach good life lessons as well. And because if you play better and score more or run faster and finish first you win I like kids playing sports better than showing livestock. Again the problem in athletics is the adults. But being beaten like your Pop Warner team by a superior opponent is far different than being beaten by someone's opinion who is unethical or worse, apathetic.
I think we got off the topic as usual. But there is a guy who judged out state show two years and I cannot remember his name I would know if if I heard it. I am pretty sure he's a prof at Black Hawk. But he was on his phone CONSTANTLY both years and I understand he does it at all shows and he judges the big ones. And he stunk it up both times, too. He was rude to the kids he was apathetic in his judging, acted like he didn't want to be there. Satree judged the other ring and he is no slowpoke. This guy finished an hour ahead of him.
In my mind the point is that there is no accountability for judges in these cattle shows. If a breeder is a judge and he obviously picks other breeders cattle who are also big time judges there's nothing to be done about it. That is usually big shows and I am a big boy and that is just how things go. If you don't want to deal with that kind of stuff, don't go. However, when adults don't give kids a fair chance, at least in my mind that is a totally different thing. I'm certainly not saying it happens all the time or even most of the time. But if an adult takes away the recognition a child should have for his time and effort in any way then that person should be held accountable for it. In my opinion.
However, I take exception to this "Competition is great, wanting to win is as well, expecting to win everytime, and then getting upset or blaming others when you don't is where I see a problem. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and work harder is what I tell them. Just like when my Pop Warner team got run over by a better team."
When you go to sell something, when you go to play something, when you go to build something, you better be expecting to "win every time." You get an A in school if you get 90% of the questions right. If you get 90% of a building correct it will fall and crush everything inside of it. Your analogy with the coaches and Pop Warner thing doesn't translate to showing livestock because those are winners determined objectively. Who ever has the most points wins or whomever crosses the finish line first wins. Showing livestock determines winners by opinion at best and political choice at worst. Athletics teach good life lessons as well. And because if you play better and score more or run faster and finish first you win I like kids playing sports better than showing livestock. Again the problem in athletics is the adults. But being beaten like your Pop Warner team by a superior opponent is far different than being beaten by someone's opinion who is unethical or worse, apathetic.
I think we got off the topic as usual. But there is a guy who judged out state show two years and I cannot remember his name I would know if if I heard it. I am pretty sure he's a prof at Black Hawk. But he was on his phone CONSTANTLY both years and I understand he does it at all shows and he judges the big ones. And he stunk it up both times, too. He was rude to the kids he was apathetic in his judging, acted like he didn't want to be there. Satree judged the other ring and he is no slowpoke. This guy finished an hour ahead of him.
In my mind the point is that there is no accountability for judges in these cattle shows. If a breeder is a judge and he obviously picks other breeders cattle who are also big time judges there's nothing to be done about it. That is usually big shows and I am a big boy and that is just how things go. If you don't want to deal with that kind of stuff, don't go. However, when adults don't give kids a fair chance, at least in my mind that is a totally different thing. I'm certainly not saying it happens all the time or even most of the time. But if an adult takes away the recognition a child should have for his time and effort in any way then that person should be held accountable for it. In my opinion.
Tallcool1 said:
The judge needs to show respect to the exhibitors and families whether it's a small county fair or not. Telling a group of children they are excused from a showmanship class because of a college football affiliation , to me shows a lack of respect to them and the commitment they and their families make to a year long project. Not to mention having a phone out doing snap chats or whatever during a heifer class.
