Warning! Topic may get heated!

[DL]

I was asking for a reason why ace is acceptable and other drugs aren't.  I am not being arrogant I'm simply stating facts or observations if you will of what actually happens with show cattle.  I would never administer a drug to a calf that was entering the food supply that would pose a danger to the consumer.

The use of acepromazine and or thorazine in show cattle is illegal - you may think it is acceptable but it is illegal. What actually happens in show cattle may not be legal. PLEASE know and understand the laws regarding drug use in animals raised for food. Can you tell me what the label on ace says? Can you tell me what extra label use is?It is irrelevant whether you think a drug poses a danger for consumers - what is relevant is that if you are raising cattle for food you should know the laws. PERIOD!

 

[sunny]

Dusty, the reason the family must be crucified is because of people like you that really don't care if a drug is legal or harmful.  If it will give you any kind of benefit at a show, you will give it a try!  The only thing that will deter people with that attitude is the threat that they may be banned from ever showing anything anywhere ever again!  I believe if they strictly enforce the rules, eventually everyone will get the message - If you want to show livestock don't use illegal drugs on them.  Seems pretty simple to me.  The reason for punishment for a crime is to deter others from also breaking the law.
  As for the girls protesting with the message painted on their steers, maybe they didn't pick the best way to protest, but I don't see where they broke any rules. I can't believe the fairboard would permit the lawbreaker to show and ban the ones that drew attention to that fact!

 

[DL]

Dusty - not only do you not get it but apparently you are incapable of educating yourself. If you are going to mouth off know the facts

Dexamethasone is an ADRENOCORTICOTICAL STEROID - you can look in Goodman and Gilman's "the Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics" or any other pharmacology text.

And for the 10,000th time - it is irrelevant what you think about giving a drug and food safety - what you are proposing is against the law. You might do better if you spent a little time knowing what you were talking about. But apparently you think you are above the law and know it all - what a combo

Sunny - excellent post

 

[buyer]

was anything said at the meeting about letters that were sent?

Not a thing,apparently they don't exist....  But I am bringing that up at the next meeting.  I know there were many sent, even from other clubs in the area.  At some point, they can't hide it if they keep coming in.  Each member of the fairboard was sent a copy of the ODA report recently, apparently they didn't all read it before voting on a decision.  The girls dad asked if they could all sit there and still agree with the ruling.  Most put their heads down....and immediately Howard Bates yelled, you are out of line!......
 

 

[buyer]

PLEASE SHOW YOUR SUPPORT AND SIGN THE PETITION FOR THE "DRUG FREE" STEERS
GO TO IPETITIONS.COM
ENTER GCDRUGFREESTEERS IN THE SEARCH BOX

 

[Show Heifer]

Wow, where do I begin.
dusty, seems to me you are an egotistical butt. Sorry, If it walks like a donkey, talks like a donkey, it is usually a donkey.
If it is illegal, and there is a law for it, THEN IT IS BLACK AND WHITE. Grey areas only exist in the minds of those breaking the law/rules. If you are dealing with the food chain, you damn well better care if it is common practice....have you not read a paper or watched TV lately? The animal rights groups are WINNING, they closed a packing plant (actually rightfully so with the abuse and all), but then recalled meat to scare the public with absolutely no health concerns. They closed the horse slaughter plants down....do you really think they are going to stop there? Do you think they will say "oh well, I guess if it is common practice in the show ring then we'll just let it go."  I don't think so.
And yes, ace/thorazine is used in show cattle. But, not with MY or DL's approval (although others disagree for "safety" reasons). IT IS ILLEGAL, again NO GREY AREA THERE.
The family signed a legal document stating they had not given the steer any meds. So not only did they give the animal a prescription only drug without a prescription, they lied about it on the document. Why? Because they KNEW it was wrong.
And I guess "if your not cheating, your not trying hard enough...." crap.....well, I guess if you're willing to take the risk, you better be willing to take the consequences. So either play by the rules, or take it like a man. 
You ARE saying it is right if you are condoning and NOT CONDEMNING it. So if you don't think it is right, stand up for what you believe in. I know that is hard for some, but you seem like you have the "umph" to do it.

I am not naive enough to think you are alone in your thinking dusty.....and that scares me.....it really does.

 

[renegade]

No, Show Heifer, he is right if you are cheating you REALLY ARENT trying hard enough but I dont mean it the same way he does. If you are cheating you arent trying your best to raise a good animal that will performe well with out cheating. You arent trying hard enough to be an honest producer and raise a better calf than the guy in the stall next to you becuase you know that he wont cheat and you will and in the end you might have the "better calf" without trying as hard.

One thing I hate is a cheater. I see it all the time in horses too.  Girls will win (rodeo queen) because of how much money they forked over in "sponsership" because they are scared of who is coming to compete against them. So instead of trying harder to improve their horsemanship and public speaking and horse knowledge they cheat.  So i guess he is right if you arent cheating you really arent trying hard enough.

 

[DL]

Dusty - not only do you not get it but apparently you are incapable of educating yourself. If you are going to mouth off know the facts

Dexamethasone is an ADRENOCORTICOTICAL STEROID - you can look in Goodman and Gilman's "the Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics" or any other pharmacology text.

And for the 10,000th time - it is irrelevant what you think about giving a drug and food safety - what you are proposing is against the law. You might do better if you spent a little time knowing what you were talking about. But apparently you think you are above the law and know it all - what a combo

Sunny - excellent post

Are you always this crabby?  I can't see how you would ever have any fun in life..  The difference between you and me is when I'm posting on the board I'm laughing...I think you actually get mad...WOW..Don't take yourself so seriously no one else is.  If you would have read my posts I never said giving a calf a drug was right or wrong.  Frankly i don't care what another person does with their livestock.  I said that singling out one kid who calf gave his calf DEX a couple days before the fair and making it sound like he is the Antichrist of the cattle industry is a little much.

And I think you need to educate yourself as to what really goes on with show cattle.  I am not saying it is right or fair or whatever but few things in life are right and fair.  Here are a couple undeniable facts about showing cattle that apply a lot of the time.

"If you're not cheating a little, you're not trying hard enough."
"Good ones are bred, great ones are fed, and champions are usually hand made!"
"Nice guys finish last...."

So keep follwing the rules, feeding your cattle organic grain and what not, it's very noble.
But it's just being naive to think that's how everyone does it.
I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying its all part of the game.
And it makes you mad that you know I'm correct on the above statements. You can't argue them.

Laws are like labels they're guidelines not absolute.  Quit seeing everything in black and white and come over to the gray area.

Oh and you assuming I can't educate myself.  You crack me up, you think because you read things in books and I'm sure you're one of those college educated "SMART" people that know everything because you read it in a book or you had a class on it that you think you're an expert.  When I have a health issue with my livestock I don't call a vet I call other cattlemen that I know because they're collective knowledge is more than any vet I have ever met.  The only thing I use vets for is to get the prescription drugs that i sometimes need.

By the way I've forgotten more than you'll ever know DL.

WOW Dusty - you must be a rocket scientist with an attitude and a total disregard for the law, clearly you can't or won't educate yourself - you simply don't understand the very simple concept that extra label drug use is illegal. Pity. Oh and by the way, I am not crabby I just find your attitude tiresome and boring. I know what goes on in the "show cattle world" and I find it appalling - you are advocating cheating and illegal practices. You may not care what drugs other people give their cattle but anyone who cares about the industry does.

 

[dutch pride]

[/quote]

Are you always this crabby?  I can't see how you would ever have any fun in life..  The difference between you and me is when I'm posting on the board I'm laughing...I think you actually get mad...WOW..Don't take yourself so seriously no one else is.  If you would have read my posts I never said giving a calf a drug was right or wrong.  Frankly i don't care what another person does with their livestock.  I said that singling out one kid who calf gave his calf DEX a couple days before the fair and making it sound like he is the Antichrist of the cattle industry is a little much.

And I think you need to educate yourself as to what really goes on with show cattle.  I am not saying it is right or fair or whatever but few things in life are right and fair.  Here are a couple undeniable facts about showing cattle that apply a lot of the time.

"If you're not cheating a little, you're not trying hard enough."
"Good ones are bred, great ones are fed, and champions are usually hand made!"
"Nice guys finish last...."

So keep follwing the rules, feeding your cattle organic grain and what not, it's very noble.
But it's just being naive to think that's how everyone does it.
I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying its all part of the game.
And it makes you mad that you know I'm correct on the above statements. You can't argue them.

Laws are like labels they're guidelines not absolute.  Quit seeing everything in black and white and come over to the gray area.

Oh and you assuming I can't educate myself.  You crack me up, you think because you read things in books and I'm sure you're one of those college educated "SMART" people that know everything because you read it in a book or you had a class on it that you think you're an expert.  When I have a health issue with my livestock I don't call a vet I call other cattlemen that I know because they're collective knowledge is more than any vet I have ever met.  The only thing I use vets for is to get the prescription drugs that i sometimes need.

By the way I've forgotten more than you'll ever know DL.
[/quote]

Dusty; I know that DL has strong opinions on this issue and I feel she can back up her reasons with well presented and researched facts. Also the law is on her side.  Your comment "laws are labels, they're  guidelines not absolute" blows me away. I wonder how you decide what is right and wrong? Do you get to make up your own rules/laws? Driving under the influence of alcohol is illegal and a lot of people do it so does that make it OK?  I can agree that experienced cattlemen have a lot of usefull knowledge but so do a lot of Vets and i am sure you have not met all vets so how can you make a claim that they have less knowledge? Where are the fact to back up your opinions?

Just because everyone does it, does not make it right. You can either turn a blind eye, join in, or make a stand to do things right. DL and others have chosen to make a stand to do things right (legally). To fault those who have chosen to do this is inappropriate in my opinion. From your responses, it seems you have made a different choice.

As to your last comment, please lets keep or comments about differences of opinions supported by facts and not make negative comments towards  individuals.

 

[Ag Man]

Dusty,

Just stop for a minute and try to see all points of view here.  

The beef industry has just came out of a ROUGH  week...largest recall EVER!!!  That is not the worst...the worst is the shaken confidence on the consumer.  

You may feel like it is not serious but it is...they will make other choices.  In the 70's and 80's the beef industry got beat up by everyone over the health aspects of fat, cholesterol, and every other study that came out...we slipped from the number one protein source by a huge margin to the number 2 BY AN EVEN WIDER MARGIN.  The beef industry viewed poultry as a joke...the poultry industry made great strides in product development, perceived health benefits and became more efficient...cheaper...and they blew by us. We have made up a little ground the past five years as evidence by strong prices...in fact un-precedented 5 year prices.  But that is tenuous at best.

The packing plant that has shown up in the videos probably had the same attitude as you concerning the welfare of cattle and the product they sold...anything for a few dollars more.  A meat recall last summer in the northeast BANKRUPTED a company.  Probably will cost this company millions...more in lost contracts...just to butcher a few downers....they deserve it though.

I have been around these boards for many years...people with your view point are usually the show steer guys...your statement about it being "part of the game" would lead me to believe you are just in it with a few head, in the dark, sheltered in a cooler,....if you are in it bigger than that then when your cattle buyer swings by please fully explain to him or her your total feelings about illegal use of drugs.

You say laws are guidelines...this isn't like a speed limit of 65...this is something that ends up impacting much more than a few drivers in and around you at the time.


You say you have forgotten more than DL will ever know...maybe about NASCAR or the NFL or your favorite college team but I am very confident as well as most on here DL knows more than all of us on this topic as well as many other topics.  I've seen her posts for the last three years on many other boards and trust me...you are no DL.

 

[shorthorns r us]

this topic is living up to its name now.

 

[Show Heifer]

Clarification:  The cheater in Ohio is NOT a "poor kid"........

 

[kimbaljd]

this topic is living up to its name now.

      I agree wit that. I in now promote illegal drugs in animals. I even think the kid should have something done for punishment, what I am open for suggestions. I just see it as a little crazy to think that throwing the book at this kid for ever.There are many instances out there at the shows (ie cheating in many ways) that would help getting this under control. Heck, I even think (Dusty) is not the things you keep calling her and crucifing him over. I think he was more on those lines of why are they crucuifing this family? The sad thing here everything on here seems a lot of he said/ she said and a bunch of rumors. I am not saying I thought any of these illegal standpoints are right.  And Dusty was never really sying it was illegal or not. Just pointing out ALL the other cheaters and what they do in shows. I also think he may be a wee bit like me, where I like to say stuff sometimes to get reaction. It can be great fun.

 

[DL]

Clarification:  The cheater in Ohio is NOT a "poor kid"........

Yup - in fact he got to keep $1.75/lb for his 1300 lb steer - he is a cheater and he broke the law.

kimbaljd -if you want to get reaction that is fine but it would be more effective if you proofed your writing - I can't figure out what you are trying to say

dusty - you gonna go to bat for the poor kid who ran a stop light and killed an entire family? after all running a stop light isn't like shooting someone

if you 2 aren't advocating illegal drug use in food animals are you going to sign the petition?

 

[red]

Dusty- there is no rumors about what happened w/ the tainted steer. It was factual. The real reason for the topic is whether the family w/ the painted steer got a fair sentence.
I think everyone has their hot buttons. For DL & others it's illegal use of drugs ( gee, I hope this doesn't get me more negative karma points from you two  ). I think getting if something is in the rule book as being a banned substance it needs to be followed. Painting a steer that is just being weighed at early check in is hardly a banned product. I remember when a young man was killed just beofre county fair. He had a market hog. The kids in his FFA painted "We'll miss you" on it. Hog showed as is. It never had a chance of winning but everyone cried.

Red

 

[knabe]

I'm pretty sure DL doesn't forget anything!  which is why she doesn't need to keep relearning what she forgot.  your're gonna have to try harder with logic about how effective forgetfulness is to convince me.  I usually pay dearly for things i forget.

 

[DL]

Clarification:  The cheater in Ohio is NOT a "poor kid"........

Yup - in fact he got to keep $1.75/lb for his 1300 lb steer - he is a cheater and he broke the law.

kimbaljd -if you want to get reaction that is fine but it would be more effective if you proofed your writing - I can't figure out what you are trying to say

dusty - you gonna go to bat for the poor kid who ran a stop light and killed an entire family? after all running a stop light isn't like shooting someone

if you 2 aren't advocating illegal drug use in food animals are you going to sign the petition?

It's kind of a stretch to compare running stop light(asking for trouble) killing an entire family and giving a steer dex.  I think a better comparison to giving the steer Dex would be driving 5 miles over the speed limit on the interstate.  It's illegal, everyone does it though.  Car accidents that cause thousands of deaths a year that could "possibly" be avoided by driving the speed limit happen.  I don't think anyone has ever died from eating meat that had traces amounts of Dex in it.  So in reality people driving over the speed limit should be banned from driving for life? Speeding poses a far greater danger to public health than giving a steer a shot of Dex if you go by statistics.  It's a fact. However no one thinks twice about running a few miles over the limit, and we don't crucify someone who gets caught speeding.  Why do people get a free pass to speed a little bit then?? Because it's common, 90% of people do it even though it's illegal and people have died from it.  Its not as dangerous as doing something like drinking 15 beers and driving home.  Which could be compared to giving a steer Buterol i think, because everyone knows that you are asking for trouble then.  You are putting consumers in danger by giving a calf buterol.

And DL, i have nothing personal against you.  I am simply trying to make an argument for this kid from a different point of view than everyone else on this board.

Wow - I am relieved to know you have nothing against me - it really had me is a dither (or was it a tizzy) - Just because you speed doesn't mean "eveyone does" and just because "everyone does" doesn't make it right. You either play fair and follow the rules or you don't. I see where you play.

Have you read the investigative report from the ODA on the incident? I think not. And clearly you don't understand AMDUCA and ELDU. When trying to debate an issue it is usually good to have you facts in a row - you really haven't done a compelling job of providing a different point of view - what you have done is advocated for illegal use of drugs in animals destined for food and this attitude is a problem for the whole industry.

And again it is really irrelevant that you think one drug or another is "worse" - the law doesn't really care what you think. And if it was such a boring weekend why didn't you volunteer to help someone do something constructive???

 

[buyer]

yes it is...what can I say it was a boring weekend so i thought would stir something up....It was looking to be a one sided arguement and I figured somebody had to go to bat for this poor kid in Ohio.

if you read the ODA report, you definitely would not be supporting the "poor kid" in Ohio.

 

[shorthorns r us]

how many million tons of beef would japan turn down if they happened to test some meat that had dex from a show steer?

 

[knabe]

Japn rejecting certain beef shipments is more politcal than you think...spend enough time inspecting anything and you can find something out of spec if you want to.

dusty, this is a strawman argument.