We are changing our herd away from Shorthorn

[Lucky_P]

Commercial herd here; had a 'stabilized' SimAngus base herd, bred over a 20 year period - but, being a fan of traditional Simmentals, they were mostly red/yellow white-faced, with a few old 'flowery' spotted girls.  I was getting hammered at the auction barn on 'em.  Went back toward the Angus side of the deal, and made most of them black.
Have some nice 3/4 and higher percentage Angus cows now - most by the walking herdsire;  calves by AI Angus sires...just left something to be desired.  Farm manager(wife) decided to try infusing some Shorthorn -mainly for the maternal traits.  Pleasant surprise was...that the steer calves were head and shoulders above any Angus-sired steers...on par with those sired by Simmental sires.
Will probably be breeding the red cows to black bulls  and black cows to Shorthorn sires for the foreseeable future.

 

[hamburgman]

How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction.

Over the last 20 years profit over $100/pair has came only a handful of times xbar.  That $100 in many states is the difference between making an average profit vs losing serious money.

 

[Andyva]

I'm a commercial guy. Ran Herefords for years, buy Hereford bull keep a bunch of heifers for about two years, ditch the Hereford and breed to a black bull for about four years and only keep select heifers out of him. I decided to go shorthorn, from what I can see the Hereford is re-inventing itself as a terminal breed to put on a black cow herd. I wan't a red maternal herd with black terminal bulls. When I do run red the shorty seems to put the red on the neck, featherneck will earn you a dock here, keep the neck solid and it's not as bad. From what I can see a solid red bull on angus and Hereford cows throws solid blacks, solid reds and red and black baldies. People will use any excuse not to part with money. If they see roan and spots all over they are going to accuse either dairy stock or longhorn of being in there. I figure if I get anything too chromed up, I'll grow it out and market freezer beef, grass fed. Most of the Angus sires that I've had the misfortune of being able to afford lately have not left me with the option of grass finishing as freezer beef, they need momma or corn, take either away and they don't look so good. I am very impressed with the calving ease of my shorthorn sire, just hope they grow good. I also really dig the fact that I could evaluate his numbers and take my time making a sound breeding decision instead of having to stand in line to bid on some picked over angus runt calves or else buy someone's craigslist reject. Sometimes things like that are worth 100 bucks here and there. I think they need to be marketed as "The Other British Breed". Worked for the pork industry.

 

[Medium Rare]

How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction.

 

[JoeBnTN]

For many of us in the Southeastern US there has been a long standing bias against Shorthorns and that has often been reflected in the market, so I fully understand where you're coming from in your thoughts.  But let me offer one thought that we've found to be true over the years and it's something that our commercial bull buyers have told us for years.

In your post, you don't mention whether the discount you're finding is on a weight or age constant basis and that's important, as that has a huge impact on real profit.  We have a couple of local cattlemen who buy bulls every couple of years from us for their commercial herds.  In addition to our Shorthorns, they use Angus and black Chi-crosses for breeding.  They've told us consistently that while they often get a discount for their Shorthorn cross calves, they still make more money on them.  Why?  Higher calving percentage and heavier weights at weaning (usually 50-75 pounds per calf).  Coupled together this means more total weight at sale time and, even with a discount, more money in their pocket.

Do I wish there wasn't a discount -- absolutely!  But as you noted, this is about dollars and cents, and for our customers, that's more end profits, so they stay committed to using Shorthorns in their breeding program.  So all I'd suggest before you make any change is to be sure that you're looking at the total bottom line, not just the hwt price -- there's just too many factors that need to be considered to make the right decision.

Regardless of what you decide -- good luck!

 

[Duncraggan]

I think they need to be marketed as "The Other British Breed". Worked for the pork industry.

Makes a lot of sense! (clapping)

 

[mark tenenbaum]

For many of us in the Southeastern US there has been a long standing bias against Shorthorns and that has often been reflected in the market, so I fully understand where you're coming from in your thoughts.  But let me offer one thought that we've found to be true over the years and it's something that our commercial bull buyers have told us for years.

In your post, you don't mention whether the discount you're finding is on a weight or age constant basis and that's important, as that has a huge impact on real profit.  We have a couple of local cattlemen who buy bulls every couple of years from us for their commercial herds.  In addition to our Shorthorns, they use Angus and black Chi-crosses for breeding.  They've told us consistently that while they often get a discount for their Shorthorn cross calves, they still make more money on them.  Why?  Higher calving percentage and heavier weights at weaning (usually 50-75 pounds per calf).  Coupled together this means more total weight at sale time and, even with a discount, more money in their pocket.

Do I wish there wasn't a discount -- absolutely!  But as you noted, this is about dollars and cents, and for our customers, that's more end profits, so they stay committed to using Shorthorns in their breeding program.  So all I'd suggest before you make any change is to be sure that you're looking at the total bottom line, not just the hwt price -- there's just too many factors that need to be considered to make the right decision.

Regardless of what you decide -- good luck!/// WELL PUT:Some guys makr more money overall if they feed them, because the cattle marble and grade-its really a shame people have to rely on the sale barn and the no IQ idiots that run alot of them O0

 

[RyanChandler]

How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction.

How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction.

Over the last 20 years profit over $100/pair has came only a handful of times xbar.  That $100 in many states is the difference between making an average profit vs losing serious money.

This is a joke, right?    I've seen calculations like these time and time again and every time they factor in non production cost.  Almost silly to try to present that a guy running 300 cows is only making 30 grand.  Granted my cows and land are paid for - as is the case with most cow/calf producers-  but I cleared about 3x  what this chart suggests the average was last year-  and that's with SHs. 

 

[librarian]

What qualities made Shorthorns world leaders at one time?
Early maturity
Carcass quality

Why did Angus surpass Shorthorns in the feedlot?
I think it was that the Angus could be fed longer to greater weight before laying on fat.
Early maturity works against Shorthorns when feed is cheap ( just guessing)
They finish before attaining the weight the feedlot wants.

CAB requires the animal to grade choice or better.

CAB got where it is with numbers. Large groups of animals to feed out and collect data on.
Large numbers to high grade the best animals from.
CAB promotes all kinds of genetic testing to match production to their standards.

If Shorthorn develops a commercial program based on the idea of burying our genetics in black crossbred cattle, how do we promote the concept of Shorthorn as a better end product?

The history of Webollabolla that okotoks posted elsewhere is very interesting as an example of genetic development and business planning. Fundamental to the plan was not to compromise hanging weight.
Webollabolla operates a 2000 head feedlot.
They have numbers.

Are Shorthorn producers working together to send numbers of animals to a 2000 head feedlot to do trails and collect data to present to buyers for a given market?

What new beef markets are gaining traction?
All Natural
Pasture Raised

Shorthorns can meet this market BETTER SOONER than Angus because of their better
Feed conversion
Early maturity
Carcass quality

The consumer does not want meat implanted with growth hormones.
They do want fat in their meat, but healthy fat from a short grain finish on a pasture matured animal or from an animal finished on forage

When the consumer is already paying a premium for beef, they want a product that they believe in.
"We Are Not Them" could work for us because we excel in an All Natural scenario.
Somebody needs to buy a feedlot, work with a University that is doing breed research and develop a brand that depicts Pasture Raised Shorthorn Beef as the beef with Old Fashioned Flavor.

http://www.theland.com.au/news/agriculture/cattle/beef/shorthorns-meet-feedlot-demand/2700043.aspx?storypage=0

"We are seeing a lot of data out of the United States showing feed conversion ratios for the breed of between 5.2 to 5.8kg of feed to one kilogram of weight gain," he said.

"This shows Short- horns, by comparison to the industry average, are extremely efficient on feed and extremely efficient on grass in terms of feed conversion to weight gain."

From 100-day feed programs the Shorthorn breed was achieving compliance rates of 74 per cent and higher for marble score two or better.

"Shorthorns are able to satisfy those premium markets," Mr Winnell said.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Any idea what shorthorn bloodlines were used in obtaining that data for the study?

 

[librarian]

No. My impression is that Australian cattle, in general, have deep genetic programming for performance in grassland environment. They just manage that way and let the animals grow longer before harvest.
Marbling, I've heard, is primarily a function of age.
The Shorthorn magic bullet is acceleration.

 

[knabe]

Marbling, I've heard, is primarily a function of age.

doubtful

 

[librarian]

I may have misunderstood the remarks about age, I commonly do.
I was at a talk about grades of meat and cutting meat to optimize tenderness ( divide muscles and cut across the grain, just like we cut venison). This guys point was that the traditional cuts are boring and if we are custom cutting meat for private customers, we might as well do it right and educate the customer at the same time.
He said almost any animal would marble if you fed it long enough, and showed a chart like this relating grade to age.  Of course it doesn't mean much if everything has to be cut 30 months or younger.
So that's where I got that idea.
Also interesting is this article about the opposite view of age related marbling, that it is set in motion at a young age by feeding surplus calories over what the animal needs to grow muscle and bone. 
http://www.sdstate.edu/ars/species/beef/publications/upload/MarblingDevelopment.pdf
So we are back to high butterfat milk influencing marbling at an earlier age.
Maybe its just a matter of Shorthorns once having a hybrid combination of higher butterfat and larger frame than other breeds.

 

[SJcattle]

I grew up on a commercial based operation. We had a majority of shorthorn, angus, semi females and bred back to shorty bulls. Often we'd get some pretty nice roan calves. When my mom and dad first started in the cattle, they couldn't give the roans away, but mom and dad adored the breed so they just stuck to red bulls, 99% of the time you'd get a solid calf and the results were they made just as much as the blacks. However, in the last 10 years, my parents have been using those loud roan bulls to produce some really nice roan calves, they have gotten a premium for these roans, they just screamed shorthorn. They've had feedlots asking for more of those good shorty cattle. They know they grade well, take less feed to fatten and a shorter time to fatten. We've been very lucky in our neck of the woods. In the past 5 years there has been a serious growing demand for the shorthorn cattle, especially since the 'blue' movement.

I know dollars and cents make a lot of the decisions, however, I couldn't imagine raising any other breed of cattle. They have so many benefits and are pretty low maintenance. I say if you're passionate about your cattle keep with it. The industry goes in cycles as far as what is the 'in' color and I have a feeling that very soon those good shorthorns will be the 'it' breed. Just me being optimistic.  (thumbsup)

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Your area has been posistive for a good while. A good while ago 97-98 I was at Denver and got talking to a beef buyer from Canada looking for Shorthorn processed cattle-or a feedlot that had Shorthorns on feed. He had a demand for that type of beef-and it wasnt about buying cheap-etc etc-his buyers wanted the product. Its like way back when I was little-"them blue Durhams" would break the bank at the sale barn. I may never see the demand on the open market but I still think if there were strategic points or places to feed even a small number (relatively speaking) of these cattle out-The ones that were llegitimately good-would bring what they deserved to various end users.The tuff thing down here that I see-is that there are not enough large or even medium size herds in some areas-to put toghether sustainable numbers every year. I would venture a guess there are more good Shorthorn steers available in groups in Canada than here-because Shorthorns are much more viable as commercially useable cattle up there; even with the stoopid prejudices against them and other non-black cattle.O0

 

[b_kackley]

In our area anything but black or black with a white face will get docked at the market. I personally like shorthorns, or at least the ones used in commercial herds. The problem here is lack of quality. Most of the shorthorns I see in this area do not finish well on grass. The ones you see at the stock yard are train wrecks left over from some of our local producers. Cows you see in the pastures are hard doin and look like death warmed over. I know not all shorthorns are like that but in this area they have a bad rep for being a hard calving hard doin show only breed. It will take time to change those opinions and for prices to follow suit. The local joke has been when you buy a shorthorn bull you get a calf jack for free. I am not saying it's true just that that is how it is in my area.

 

[Doc]

The local joke has been when you buy a shorthorn bull you get a calf jack for free. I am not saying it's true just that that is how it is in my area.

You know it's funny that you say that. IMO, a lot of people act like Shorthorns are the only breed that you ever have to jack out. This past weekend at our state Agribition sale, someone had a Angus cow in the sale that started calving on sale morning. After about 2 1/2 hours , they finally got the jack out and pulled the calf.
This same guy unloaded a cow/calf pair that was a man eater. She was trying to get people thru the bars as they unloaded her, then for 5 hour she constantly tried to jump out of a 7' tall stall. I kept waiting for her to slip a leg thru the bars and break a leg. After lunch they finally loaded her back and I guess hauled her back home.

 

[Andyva]

I was worried about the huge cow killing calves that shorthorns are known for. My shorthorn bull is running a 68 pound average birth weight on my commercial cows. Heaviest one so far out of ten has been 85 pounds. My calf jack is collecting dust and I hope it stays that way. The last time I used it was on an Angus sired calf. He had a pretty low birth weight average, but he would throw a lot of 40s and 50s and then pop out one pushing 100. Big headed, dish, faced, knobby kneed, hard calving calves that needed to be 50 pounds to come easy. I have a pretty uniform cow herd so it wasn't like he was getting little calves out of the little cows and big calves out of the big cows, either. The 40s and 50s seemed to want to wean in the 350-400 pound range. The more traits you select and cull for, the better your breed will be. The Angus breed chased frame, now they are chasing low birth weight, they will be chasing weaning weight soon. They have always been caught up on color selection. Now every other breed is following on the hair color selection trend. It would be foolish to jump off of a cliff just because the Angus Association did it. Shorthorns need to just keep on being shorthorns and their day will come.

 

[justintime]

I just came in from a barn check and there have been two Shorthorn cows calve since I went to bed at midnight. Both calves are up and have nursed. That makes 32 Shorthorns born and I have had 2 assists, one was an upside down backwards calf and the other was a set of mixed up twins.  Last year I assisted one calf at birth and it was the last cow to calve and she had a backwards breach calf. Last year we calved 14 Shorthorn heifers and all calved unassisted.  I own a calving jack but it has not been used for over 2 calving seasons.
Over the years, we have maintained several other breeds of cows along with our Shorthorn herd. Since the early 70s we have had purebred herds of Charolais, Hereford, Simmental, and Maines. The last to leave were 100 Charolais cows. My vet bill during calving for the last year we had the Charolais herd was $3200 and it was entirely from Charolais calving issues. Not one vet assisted Shorthorn that year.  After we decided to concentrate on only our Shorthorn herd, it was 3 years before we had a vet come for a calving assist. I have never seen a Shorthorn cow prolapse and my dad says he has never seen a prolapse in a Shorthorn cow. To my knowledge, there has never been a Shorthorn cow prolapse in 98 years of them being on this farm. I have seen lots of prolapses in every other breed we have had. The Charolais were the worst but the Herefords were close behind them. The Simmental were not as bad but we did have a few.
For many years, I have banded any Shorthorn bull calf with a BW of 110 lbs or more. Last year I banded 1 bull calf. I have a friends who has a herd of a popular black breed, and he has been doing the same thing. Last year he banded 6 bull calves.
Shorthorns have historically been recognized for having more pelvic area and a better pelvic shape for calving. When I was in college, research showed Shorthorn yearling heifers had on average 2 square inches more pelvic area than any other breed ( including Angus). The pelvic shape was also different in Shorthorns and it was shaped to allow more calving ease when compared to other breeds. Maybe this has changed over the years from some of the new lines of genetics being used in the breed.
My vet was here to help me deliver the twisted up twins, and she made the comment that she would starve if everyone had Shorthorns in this area. I asked her if she had been busy with calving issues this year, and she had she had been to some farms many times in the past couple months. I told her I hoped this would be her only visit to our place this year. She also commented on how easy Shorthorns were to work with when there were calving issues. From my experience with other breeds on our farm, Shorthorns are by far the most docile to work with.
I have oftentimes joked and said that if every Shorthorn breeder were to give two heifers to a family with another breed, with the only requirement being that they had to register the heifer calves born from them, that in about a decade the breed would have at least a 50% increase in membership.
Personally, I have not seen the calving issues in Shorthorns that many seen to suggest. I have seen lots of calving issues in the other breeds that have been maintained here under the same management as our Shorthorn herd.  I oftentimes wonder if some of the problems some people have with calving Shorthorns is related to show ring logic. I think far too many judges have no real world experience with managing their own herds, and as a result have gone too far selecting for pretty rather than practical. Mother Nature seems to have done it right in most species, but man has gone a pretty good job of messing with the practical side of beef production. There is an old saying that there is a difference between showing breeding cattle and breeding show cattle. I think the gap between the two  has widened and I personally think we need to move a step back and start to show breeding cattle some more. Maybe in time, some of these calving issues we hear about would become less in time.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

https://www.facebook.com/brock.eagon/posts/10205895762290582


Here's one following up with Doc's comments. shorthorns in general a a good cross to calm the high headed angus cows.