We are changing our herd away from Shorthorn

[knickles]

Let me first say, I personally think that Shorthorn cattle are the best looking show cattle there are and over the years we have enjoyed showing them in Kentucky.  And everyone knows that not every heifer and bull are going to be show cattle.  A large part of any herd is going to end up at the stockyards for sale simply because they are not good enough to show and are not considered replacements.  I dont have any problem with that since it is part of the business.  However, that is where the problem lies.  In Kentucky there is absolutely no commercial market for Shorthorn cattle.  Sure they will take them, but the discount per head is enormous.  We sell at a very big stock yard in central KY and every time for the past few years our cattle have looked pound for pound as good as "black" coated cattle and yet we get discounted at least $100 dollars per head.  I have asked them why this is happening and the reply "they aren't black and that's what they want on market."  We have been slowly incorporating Angus and Simmi into our herd beecause of this and as of yesterday's poor sale numbers again with heavy discounts because of coat color, that was all we needed to finally say "enough is enough".  We are going to be switching to Angus and Simmi cattle over the next year.  Do we like doing this? No, but business is business and we must generate comparable income as other farmers do.  The Shorthorn industry has really done nothing to fix this issue in Kentucky and I attended at meeting where this issue was discussed with the Secretary when he came to ASA, yet nothing has been done.  Something sure  needs to be done to remedy this issue.  This is just our feelings and again, we love Shorthorns, but money is money and we have to follow it to survive in this business.

 

[shortyjock89]

I agree that there is generally less of a commercial market for Shorthorns, but it doesn't hold true for everywhere.

Just as an anecdote, I'm from an area in eastern IL that produced more Shorthorns in a 50 mile radius than maybe anywhere else in the Midwest. Between us, Leemons, Kaper, Hahn, Steinke, and Waukaru, and several other producers, we must have insulated a commercial market for ourselves. We have almost never received a discount for having Shorthorn cattle go across the scale, and in some instances I believe we actually got a bit of a premium.  The owner of a local sale yard bought a bull from us a few years ago because our calves had a good reputation for growing and finishing well.

I realize that this isn't normal, and we don't send many to auction at all, but it is interesting to me 

 

[RyanChandler]

How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction. 

 

[knickles]

XBAR - I mentioned in the post what the problem was - The Shorthorn industry has done nothing to promotoe Shorthorn catttle in the commercial market in Kentucky.  In some other states, they do very well, as Olson Farms mentioned.  We dont have an underlying issue with our operation - we just are not in business to continue to lose any money on cattle sales.  Since the issue hasnt changed over the years, we are moving on to where we dont lose money.  We gave the industy time and no changes have occurred.  It doesnt matter whether it's $2 or $2000 dollars, money is money. 

 

[ifinditfunny]

It's not the associations job to create a market. That's your job.  Every breed has it advantages and disadvantages. 

 

[aj]

I don't know that the assc. can do much unless its coordinate breeders to group calves. You could feed them yourself except it takes 40 head to put a pen together. There is the locker beef aspect of the deal also to consider. It is a problem. The color deal has killed the Shorthorn breed in the last 20 years. Every breed is trying to look like Angus because of this misconception. Simmental,Gelbvieh, Limousin, Salers, etc etc. are trying to look like Angus. The industry is tightening up consistency of quality and size though. What will the industry look like......need 20 years from now....? Good question.

 

[justintime]

That is such a crock and I wish I had an easy answer as to how to correct the prejudice again cattle of color other than black. Here in Canada we are finally seeing this erased however there are still some areas where black is king. We just had our bull sale on Tuesday, and we had a full house and a good sale. Most of our bulls sold to commercial producers. One commercial man who runs 600 cows came to look and he ended up buying 4 bulls and bid to $17,000 on our high selling bull at $32,000. Lots of commercial producers paid $6000-$9000 for bulls. Our open heifers averaged over $3600 with many of them selling to commercial herds. It seems we have finally crossed the color barrier here. Shorthorns have proven that they have better feed conversions than many other breeds and they grade better with less time on feed. We are now seeing some feedlots paying top dollar for Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross calves in the fall. What gets me, is that many of these same calves are killed at US plants when they are finished and they are getting premiums for them there as well. Seems to me, there are some buyers who have color issues.

 

[librarian]

Do you want ASA to initiate a black Shorthorn program?
I don't understand what you think ASA should do?

 

[shortyjock89]

Probably come up with a regional campaign to help promote the breed in that area.  Sounds like something a local association or state level group should be doing.  Which is actually a good idea.  Get a small ish feed yard to take a group of Shorthorn calves, or even Shorthorn sired and keep data on them.  Do this for a few years and publish the data.  If they feed as well as you'd expect, the feed yard should be excited about doing this program year after year, and you can start to offer a premium to producers.  Do this for a while, and maybe some other feed yards will want to get in on these good feeding cattle too. 

This is not an easy industry to make waves in.  It takes hard work and time.  It can be done, but all your power as a producer is going to be at the local level.  Make changes where you can, reach out to your fellow producer.  Offer buy-back incentives on calves sired by bulls you sold to a local commercial cattleman.  There are things that can be done, but it takes a ton of effort.

 

[Lucky_P]

knickles,
Doing the exact opposite...
I'm located in western KY.  Have had commercial Simmental, Angus & SimAngus cattle since 1987; mostly breeding black for 20 years. 
I'm going the other way...using red Shorthorn sires over these black cows - and loving the calves - and since over half the mature cowherd are red-carriers, I'm getting quite a few red calves.  Have not experienced any discount for reds...but some discount on some kinky-haired brown calves(courtesy of the color dilution gene from 1980s Simmental bulls) - not rat-tails, but I know they stole them with that thought.

Yeah, black is the preferred color for buyers here, but we're seeing more and more red cattle - more Red Angus in the area, and I know several folks who are using Shorthorn bulls over here in this end of the state.  Could I regret all the red cattle I'm producing now?  Maybe; but I can make the calves black in one generation.
Personally, I'm a 'red cow' man...it'd be fine with me if all my heifers came red, and their brothers came black.

It may be suicide to mention it on a board largely dedicated to club calf and show genetics, but early in our consideration of incorporating Shorthorns into our program, we were warned about the 'two worlds' of Shorthorns... big hair, big bone, freaky neck extension, etc....have no place in MY commercial program.
That said, I'm convinced that the RIGHT Shorthorn cattle bring A LOT to the table for a commercial beef producer!

 

[JTM]

knickles,
Doing the exact opposite...
I'm located in western KY.  Have had commercial Simmental, Angus & SimAngus cattle since 1987; mostly breeding black for 20 years. 
I'm going the other way...using red Shorthorn sires over these black cows - and loving the calves - and since over half the mature cowherd are red-carriers, I'm getting quite a few red calves.  Have not experienced any discount for reds...but some discount on some kinky-haired brown calves(courtesy of the color dilution gene from 1980s Simmental bulls) - not rat-tails, but I know they stole them with that thought.

Yeah, black is the preferred color for buyers here, but we're seeing more and more red cattle - more Red Angus in the area, and I know several folks who are using Shorthorn bulls over here in this end of the state.  Could I regret all the red cattle I'm producing now?  Maybe; but I can make the calves black in one generation.
Personally, I'm a 'red cow' man...it'd be fine with me if all my heifers came red, and their brothers came black.

It may be suicide to mention it on a board largely dedicated to club calf and show genetics, but early in our consideration of incorporating Shorthorns into our program, we were warned about the 'two worlds' of Shorthorns... big hair, big bone, freaky neck extension, etc....have no place in MY commercial program.
That said, I'm convinced that the RIGHT Shorthorn cattle bring A LOT to the table for a commercial beef producer!

I agree with Lucky P. It takes the right kind of Shorthorn cattle. We started with the show genetics and have moved swiftly to commercial shorthorn genetics in recent years. It's taking a lot of educating and arguing with the locals but they are beginning to believe us that Shorthorns feed efficiently, marble, and produce high quality choice carcasses. We have dealt with color prejudice also over the years and it has got a little bit better but it wasn't enough for me either. We started retaining all of our red steers to feed for freezer beef and oh my goodness do people love shorthorn beef. The response to the consistency of quality was amazing. The other thing we are doing is we are putting our steers together with other breeders and retaining ownership in a feedlot. This way we will get the true value of the carcass on the rail instead of being docked for color. I understand your frustration knickles. We have chosen to persevere and use Shorthorns as our primary breed in our crossbred commercial cow calf operation along with angus and simmental. We will also still breed seedstock purebred shorthorns. We feel the value and potential is unlimited.

 

[justintime]

The part that gets me about this color issue, is that I have spoken with a manager of a 30,000 head feedlot here, and he says he does not get discounted for Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross fats when they are slaughtered at US plants. He says he oftentimes gets a premium price for them. If this is the case, then this is nothing more than a money grab from the producers selling Shorthorn calves. In Canada, our grading system has marbling as one of the main components of the top grades, and Shorthorns excel at doing this. There are still areas where Shorthorns get discounted at the market, but most places see Shorthorns actually sell as good as anything else or even better.

A guy who runs 800 cows called me last week and said he was going to come to our sale, to see what Shorthorns could offer him. He bought one bull but said he was seriously thinking of buying more in the future, as he was getting disappointed with the performance he was getting from some of the black bulls he was buying. I think more and more are moving the same way. In our sale, many of the commercial buyers outbid the purebred breeders looking for bulls.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Basically everybody makes money but the farmer-like when fats grade out and sell well-in the end-and are initially bought cheap.I know Jay Benham in Ohio has a Shorthorn feedlot and does very well-and tips his hat to no one-So it would seem some sort of retained ownership would make the most sense in alot of cases-not just Shorthorns O0

 

[Lucky_P]

The black hide thing is stupid, but it is what it is, and it's a testament to the success of the CAB marketing campaign by AAA.
I understand your disgust, knickles.  Demand has been good enough the last few years, that I've not had any push-back on red calves, but have taken a hit, from time to time, on brown - and occasionally even on smoky calves - that look like a Charolais cross - and in every case, they've been essentially the same genetics - 3/4-7/8 sibs - as the black steers.
The buyers do it, because they can. 

 

[r.n.reed]

If your main profit center is selling feeder calves you should be crossbreeding anyway.That goes for the guys who have a black herd and have used Angus bulls for the last 30 years as well.In light of that who has the greatest potential for market growth Shorthorns or Angus?
If you based the success of your operation in part on what the ASA was going to do for you,well you didn't do your homework.
You can't change the culture of the last 80 years overnight, look what happened to the one guy who tried that.I applaud the current board for changes made and in the process that provide avenues to help us enter the mainstream beef industry.Don't believe for one minute that the old culture is taking this passively.
We have a fieldstaff of one.Look at all the shows and sales from one end of the country to the other and even Canada he must attend.Add to this managing the Genetic program,the steer feedout program,helping in the office and answering how many phone calls and emails a day.How much missionary work and organization can be expected on top of that.Sometimes we have to just be realistic with our expectations.
This is a long term business and it depends on you alone to succeed.Set your goals and make every decision and effort count towards reaching that goal.

 

[MDitmars]

Olson is right and it may be too late for national recognition but read the second part of this article by Harold Thieman.

http://www.yydurhamcattle.com/past4.html

Not that anyone respected the man for cattle but this was published in 1967 and we didn't listen to one of the most influential breeders in shorthorn history. You want to raise the value of your roan cattle get with other shorthorn breeders in Kentucky and fill a few pots for a couple years of only shorthorns and grade them out.

Then watch the numbers and come back and attack the Angus market. Talk to local Angus producers and make friendly bets that your cattle will out do them in the feedlot. Then suggest they use a shorthorn bull on a few of their herd if they lose. Keep the local feedlots in the loop

The association is in charge of making sure you make more money on your shorthorns through proper advertising but they can only fight a losing battle nationally. It is your job to raise the right kind of cattle locally and change the minds of the breeders in your area.

Where i am from Maryville, Kansas sale barn doesn't hurt as much on shorthorns because Lee Bigam with ELBEE farms has been selling there for decades and the feedlots know what shorthorns brings to the table.

 

[OH Breeder]

If you don't mind me asking, how many head do you run? How many do you sell?

We went to private freezer beef market and I can't keep them in stock. Have calls monthly wanting beef. Develop your own market. "city" people are looking for local grown and animals they can see what they have consumed. Lets face it. The smaller operations that can control the inputs sometimes produce a better product. Is that a possiblity to create a meat market locally? I have repeat customers and new customers all the time. We do not take a hit on price.

 

[justintime]

I agree that if you are just selling calves at weaning as feeders you definitely should be crossbreeding. I can't think of any other thing that is free in this business. Heterosis can give you about 10-15% more pounds than breeding pure, so you unless you are producing breeding stock, it should be a consideration in any program.
I am old enough to remember when black cattle received a huge discount in the markets. My dad used to say that he would love to have 25 good Angus cows but he did not think he could take the kicking they got when they sold cattle. How times have changed!! The Angus breed deserves a standing ovation for what they have accomplished with their promotional campaigns. I am hearing more and more cattlemen saying that they are not getting enough of what they are looking for from the Angus they are buying and fortunately for us, they are starting to look at Shorthorn bulls to put on their black cows.

 

[knabe]

maybe CAB should be sued for misleading claims.


really, all it is is hair fiber color, not meat difference.

http://steakperfection.blogspot.com/2011/03/question-which-breed-tastes-best.html


http://steakperfection.blogspot.com/2010/04/does-black-angus-steak-taste-better.html


not sure why they are hung up on how old they are or what they were fed.  different breeds/tastes differ with age and feed type. 


basically the bottom line is that CAB has said you are not us and no one has responded with similar success. people are trying.


http://www.cabpartners.com/articles/news/242/nelson_summary.pdf


note how they compare against a commodity steak.  that leaves a lot of room for competition.

 

[aj]

There are some awfull good Angus cattle out there. I would say that half the blacks that go through the salebarn would be hard to beat! For growth and carcass quality....the Angus have curve benders and data ansome awfull good cattle. The other 50% of the blacks are very so so cattle. They seem to piggy back on the good black cattle......but they are counterfits in alot of ways. I always wonder if reds will become more prefered over blacks some day. It may be down the road. IF that happens its fun to think about the Black Angus pitch would be then. Thats why I think the Red and Black Angus assc may merge in 50 years.