What do you think of Fort Worth Steer Show?

[RyanChandler]

Contract? Deal? You mean these guys get cash money in exchange?  Take cash away and make it an honorary position. "You were chosen" to judge.  The judge should feel honored, not bought.

 

[J2F]

Why are the steers not put in order by Weight and then Alphabetical  of show person before entering the ring  like every other show I have ever seen  to avoid this trampling being described in this post? I can just picture some dad telling their 16 year old son to run over them if they are in your way and some poor 10 year old little girl having a horrible experience because adults are not smart enough control the situation. This all sounds like a travesty, something you would read about in a kids fiction book too dumb to be real. This is only one side of the story and would love to hear the other to try to bring some perspective to the situation. Please tell me it is not as bad as portrayed cause if it is, shame on every supposed adult  involved. Someone out there thinks "the show" is bigger than the kids involved in it and that is a travesty.  

If this is a true major then why does it not have a 3 panel judging system? Why put something this big in 1 man hands?

How can you not guarantee the kid a 3 sec. look after working all year on their project? If that is too much to ask then shame on the organizers for doing a poor job. Why can't you break up and have a preliminary classes with 3 separate  judges in rings A B C then have the judges become a panel for the finals?

This is an opinion of an outsider reading this thread. For those wondering what outsiders must think reading this thread, it is not good I can tell you.  

 

[chambero]

Here's how this show usually works for those that are having trouble picturing it.  There's really not a problem with the British breeds and American breed classes.  Those breeds are each broken into three classes (Lt, Med, Heavy) with anywhwere from about 25-40 per class.  The makeup arena and show ring comfortably hold classes of that size.

This show puts all crossbred cattle into the European Cross Division.  They divide them into 12 classes by weight.  This year there between 75 and 80 calves per class.  That fills up the very big show ring.  The makeup pen holds them, but its tight.  Its quite an adventure keeping your calves hair from getting beat down in the holding pen.  You sit in that holding pen till they finish the class ahead of you.  As it is winding down, they open a gate and you head down a long ramp into the bowels of the arena to another set of gates that leads into the show ring.  You inevitably wind up having to hold on that ramp and calves never like it.  It is not a good place to be for a small kid.  My oldest had a real bad experience about 4 years ago during his third year showing and his calf wound up running over him once he got in the ring.  My fault for ever letting him show a somewhat unruly calf in the exotics at that show that year.  One I haven't repeated.  They used to not let anyone accompany a kid outside the makeup pen.  This year, they let one person follow them down the ramp and to the gates that go into the show ring.  It was much better than ever before.  Still very crowded, but much safer.  It would be a logistical nightmare to put kids/calves in a certain order before entering the show ring.  There are just way too many for that.

I helped a first time showman that showed a calf from us.  It was their first time.  They had a Class 2 or 3 exotic I forget which.  I explained to them what they were fixing to run into.  We helped them dress the calf, we arrived at the entrance to the makeup pen about 5 minutes before the class ahead of us exited.  When they let us in, we proceeded to the front corner, got a in a good spot, and waited till our turn.  I helped her down the ramp and she was probably in the top 15-20 calves in the ring.  We didn't have to run over anyone to do it.  She got looked at on the walk, but didn't get pulled.  Same deal on my son's steer.  There was a little more jostling with his calf, but nothing too bad.

Mr. Johnson absolutely did not spend much time looking at each calf.  I'd love to hear his reasoning.  I don't care if he didn't feel of every calf.  I don't have to touch a calf to tell if he's fat enough or not to make a first cut and a real judge knows a lot more about it than I do.  He should have spent more time looking at them set up before dismissing them.  The judge from the previous two years didn't hadndle every calf either, but he spent a little more time on his walk around.  None of them stop and look at every calf closely, Johnson was just much more casual about it.  Most judges stand and watch the circle of calves leaving till the last one hits the gate.  He did not.  He would watch for a little while, and then he moved on to sorting the ones he pulled.

Has anyone ever showed under him before somewhere else?  I'm curious if this is his typical approach.  I can tell you this much.  If you send a kid to the OSU Livestock Judging Camp, they spend way more one on one time with each kid than what any of the Texas schools do.  And he personally is a real big part of that.  Which surprises me even more after I saw him judge so quickly. 

 

[skeeter]

I will preface my remarks by saying my kids are grown, don't have any kinfolks showing steers, only families that are friends.  I sat in the stands and watched the first class through the last class then judging of the grand champion.  To the Martins and the Newmans, congratulations, your steers were awesome and I know you're very proud and rightfully so.  Now.... (taking a breath 'cause I'm getting mad all over again), I've never felt so frustrated for kids and their families as I was sitting in the stands those two days.  I've never witnessed a steer show quite like that in my life.  I witnessed two classes where the last half of the steers honestly never got a look, save and except for the look as they came around the curtain entering the ring.  In these two classes (AOB's) the judge had pulled his ten head, was walking by the calves on the rail and when he got to the north end where the steers exit the arena, he turned, went to his ten head in the middle and started working those steers.  There was half of the class still on the rail that he never gave a second look.  Those kids made the lap around and exited all the while he's working his ten head.  Those kids and families deserve more than that.  In all the years past, those kids and families would have received a lot more than they did that day.  I have always loved the FW steer show, taken off work for two days to watch it.  IMO the actions of the judge this year was an embarrassment to the FW show, that in years past have enjoyed such a good reputation.  I've never known of anything but a 2 year contract for judging FW but sure hope that's not the case and that management takes appropriate action to ensure this gentleman will not be back.  What some of us view as the "Granddaddy of the Texas Majors" this year left a very bad taste in your mouth for lots and lots of families.  Hopefully these families will give the show another chance and come back next year.

 

[steer-guy]

I also agree with many on here. This judge didn't even give a portion of the kids a chance. I witnessed first hand the following: As some have said, the exotics are from 75 to 80 steers in a class. I saw this judge pull his 10 on the walk in from the front portion of the class. He literally turned his back to the last 15 or so steers that havent even entered the ring yet. I first thought he would catch them on the exiting walk but I was wrong. He watched the first half of the calves exiting and then turn his back and focused his attention on the 10 calves he already pulled. I felt really bad for the kids showing that never really got a chance. How does it make a kid feel when walking in the ring with eyes glued to the judges back!

 

[rackranch]

I'm with Skeeter...
But I had a steer in the show...

I will preface my remarks by saying my kids are grown, don't have any kinfolks showing steers, only families that are friends.  I sat in the stands and watched the first class through the last class then judging of the grand champion.  To the Martins and the Newmans, congratulations, your steers were awesome and I know you're very proud and rightfully so.  Now.... (taking a breath 'cause I'm getting mad all over again), I've never felt so frustrated for kids and their families as I was sitting in the stands those two days.  I've never witnessed a steer show quite like that in my life.  I witnessed two classes where the last half of the steers honestly never got a look, save and except for the look as they came around the curtain entering the ring.  In these two classes (AOB's) the judge had pulled his ten head, was walking by the calves on the rail and when he got to the north end where the steers exit the arena, he turned, went to his ten head in the middle and started working those steers.  There was half of the class still on the rail that he never gave a second look.  Those kids made the lap around and exited all the while he's working his ten head.  Those kids and families deserve more than that.  In all the years past, those kids and families would have received a lot more than they did that day.  I have always loved the FW steer show, taken off work for two days to watch it.  IMO the actions of the judge this year was an embarrassment to the FW show, that in years past have enjoyed such a good reputation.  I've never known of anything but a 2 year contract for judging FW but sure hope that's not the case and that management takes appropriate action to ensure this gentleman will not be back.  What some of us view as the "Granddaddy of the Texas Majors" this year left a very bad taste in your mouth for lots and lots of families.  Hopefully these families will give the show another chance and come back next year.

 

[J2F]

Here's how this show usually works for those that are having trouble picturing it.  There's really not a problem with the British breeds and American breed classes.  Those breeds are each broken into three classes (Lt, Med, Heavy) with anywhwere from about 25-40 per class.  The makeup arena and show ring comfortably hold classes of that size.

This show puts all crossbred cattle into the European Cross Division.  They divide them into 12 classes by weight.  This year there between 75 and 80 calves per class.  That fills up the very big show ring.  The makeup pen holds them, but its tight.  Its quite an adventure keeping your calves hair from getting beat down in the holding pen.  You sit in that holding pen till they finish the class ahead of you.  As it is winding down, they open a gate and you head down a long ramp into the bowels of the arena to another set of gates that leads into the show ring.  You inevitably wind up having to hold on that ramp and calves never like it.  It is not a good place to be for a small kid.  My oldest had a real bad experience about 4 years ago during his third year showing and his calf wound up running over him once he got in the ring.  My fault for ever letting him show a somewhat unruly calf in the exotics at that show that year.  One I haven't repeated.  They used to not let anyone accompany a kid outside the makeup pen.  This year, they let one person follow them down the ramp and to the gates that go into the show ring.  It was much better than ever before.  Still very crowded, but much safer.  It would be a logistical nightmare to put kids/calves in a certain order before entering the show ring.  There are just way too many for that.

I helped a first time showman that showed a calf from us.  It was their first time.  They had a Class 2 or 3 exotic I forget which.  I explained to them what they were fixing to run into.  We helped them dress the calf, we arrived at the entrance to the makeup pen about 5 minutes before the class ahead of us exited.  When they let us in, we proceeded to the front corner, got a in a good spot, and waited till our turn.  I helped her down the ramp and she was probably in the top 15-20 calves in the ring.  We didn't have to run over anyone to do it.  She got looked at on the walk, but didn't get pulled.  Same deal on my son's steer.  There was a little more jostling with his calf, but nothing too bad.

Mr. Johnson absolutely did not spend much time looking at each calf.  I'd love to hear his reasoning.  I don't care if he didn't feel of every calf.  I don't have to touch a calf to tell if he's fat enough or not to make a first cut and a real judge knows a lot more about it than I do.  He should have spent more time looking at them set up before dismissing them.  The judge from the previous two years didn't hadndle every calf either, but he spent a little more time on his walk around.  None of them stop and look at every calf closely, Johnson was just much more casual about it.   Most judges stand and watch the circle of calves leaving till the last one hits the gate.  He did not.  He would watch for a little while, and then he moved on to sorting the ones he pulled.

Has anyone ever showed under him before somewhere else?  I'm curious if this is his typical approach.  I can tell you this much.  If you send a kid to the OSU Livestock Judging Camp, they spend way more one on one time with each kid than what any of the Texas schools do.  And he personally is a real big part of that.  Which surprises me even more after I saw him judge so quickly. 

Thanks for a better picture Mr. Chambero I have read some great things about you in the past couple weeks and seems you run a great program down there. Although other judges have apparently dealt with this situation much better than this judge did I can't help but wonder WHY the organizers use the 12 class set up that puts 80 calves in a pen for 1 man to judge. From an outsiders view point who has never been involved in this "tradition" it seems silly and dangerous and very disrespectful to the children, parents and advisers who work so hard. I read your common sense post about"preparing young show people"  for the experience they were about to face and I do think that failure and losses are important facts of life our young people must face and learn to grow into complete well adjusted adults but I also think they should get a fair shake. I don't think they should all get a participation ribbon but a 3 second look and more safety defiantly.

For all we know this may be the judges way of showing the flaws in the system and ticking everyone off so bad they demand change to the system next year.... you never know may be, that's better than short changing all the youths for no reason. But let's be honest he gets paid by the organizers and he does the organizers bidding so he can judge next year and other shows. If this is not how the organizers wanted it to go my guess is it wouldn't have went that way.

 

[RyanChandler]

I figure we pass the hat around and send gweedo knockin. Might teach ol boy to spend a little more time lookin at each calf.

 

[JY]

I don't suppose there is an email address for Mr. Marchman so that  parents and concerned individuals could send their thoughts and opinions about not having Mr. Johnson back next year. If  there is such everybody needs to flood them with their requests but be careful to not be unprofessional in their wording. I realize it is hard to control your emotions but it might just work.

 

[jagster]

This was my son's last year to show at Ft. Worth as he's a senior.  What a sour note to go out on for him and me. The judge already had 10 pulled BEFORE my son set foot in the show ring with his steer. Last year, I remember the judge going around and looking at the steers on the wall, feeling of some and talking to the kids quite a bit. What was the big hurry this year?  As was stated earlier, these kids and families have spent the past year and more money than they want to admit to get these calves to this show, and to not even have the judge take 5 seconds to look in their direction?  I know it is not all the judge's fault, as the format with 70 plus steers is partially to blame.  Surely the organizers of the show can come up with a better way.  And like many of you have said, the ramp was horrible, jostling, kids cutting in front of other kids, calves out of control, and worst of all parents acting like maniacs trying to get their kids to the front of the line. I feel sorry for all the kids. What a mess!

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

I have wanted to go to Ft. Worth Stock Show for some time, been to NWSS, Nile and American Royal for National Shows. I don't know if I want to go to Ft. Worth after hearing all this, these kids deserve more than they received, if they are at the back of the class and the 10 are picked before the judge even looks at their steer. That is not fair to these kids that put in all the hard work they did all year and travel the distances they did to be treated like that, IMO. I really like the NWSS judging system the best, they keep classes small usually 20 or less with class winners coming back to the division and division winners going to the champion drive and they use a 3 judge system with all the 3 judges picks go up on a huge screen that the audience can see where the judges placed each steer. The kids deserve more than they got from the sounds of it, at least a close up look at all steers entering at the least, IMO.

 

[JCFAMILY]

I have personally known Mark for many years now, he is an excellent teacher and has brightened the minds of many young people. Nevertheless I will agree that he did miss a few calves that should have been pulled or maybe should not have been whatever the case may be. I don't think anybody will argue that at the end of the day the best two calves got slapped. One thing I can tell you is that not many people know that FWSS told Mark that the news crews were going to be there to film at 12:30 and for him to be ready. If people want to complain that they're calf didn't get a look then you can blame upper management. There needs to be a sift so that every Freddy 4-Her to get they're 1100 pound YG 1 calf a look. Wouldn't it be nice if the people who are complaining could spend that 36 hours down in the dirt and pick out they're kind out of a class of 80 without spending an hour doing it.
Off my box now.

Maybe he needs to stick with teaching. I will say that you and your friend (Mark) have about the same respect for kids. Ive never known a respectable person refer to kids that bust there ass on a daily basis and try to learn something through a very good program referred to as (Freddy 4-her).  As a matter of fact, you referring to these kids some of which have competed successfully against those calves that you claim to be the best , as Freddy 4-Her's completely destroys any credibility that you ever had.  You and your excuses are a disgrace to FWSSR, all of the participants, and their families.  As far as the FWSSR told him to get ready for the camera crew at 12:30 thats just another ridiculous unbelievable excuse on your part.  I am guessing that you are another teacher who should truly keep your nose in your own profession, since you have no freaking clue about anything you are professing to know in your statement above.
0)

 

[cowman 52]

Kind of odd the show has lasted tilll 4 or so every year since my time there, and nobody ever got done any quicker. I would suspect some one wanted to show everybody that he could do it faster,and hopefully better than any one else could do it.

You need to spend some time in still water before younbrag about how good someone is.

 

[GONEWEST]

I've shown open class breeding cattle at Fort Worth years ago, but never had the fortune of seeing the steer show. I always thought of it as the most prestigious steer show in the nation. I appreciated Robert's earlier comments about adults preparing their kids for what was about to take place and how it was different than any other place they have been to. But after his description of the workings of the show, I must say it would be difficult for me to continue with my perception of Ft. Worth as a prestigious show.  

Just out of curiosity, I am wondering why there are 80 calves in a class? If you say its because there are so many steers, I would ask what the difference between sorting this group of 1,000 exotic steers and a show of say 1,000 heifers that has 60 classes? Why aren't there more classes? If you had 60 classes you'd have 60 winners, break those down into divisions of 5 classes and have 12 division winners to choose the champion from. Why not do the exotics one day and the rest on another day?

Concerning the "ramp rush," I thought I had heard of a lot of silly things at shows but that has to take the cake. It's absolutely the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of that your order of placing is determined by how soon you get into the ring. Just saying "that's just how it is" wouldn't be good enough for me. Why aren't the calves lined up by weight or exhibitor number or what ever and given an order in which to enter the ring? I would love to hear a logical explanation of this.

As to the judge, I am willing to listen to the guy who said he was instructed to hurry because of the news crews. BUT.......I would say that it is a reflection on his personal character that he would choose to have things on time for TV than to show respect for the money, time and effort these families put into the opportunity to walk into the ring. As Robert mentioned I am absolutely sure that half of the calves in these big classes deserve to be pulled. And they all can't be. However, they all CAN be given a fair chance to be looked at. One person  commented that every " Freddy 4-Her with an 1100 pound YG1 calf "  doesn't deserve to be looked at. What a ridiculously poor outlook. The kid that does the best with what he has, with what he can afford and with the knowledge and help he has available to him deserves every bit the respect that the kid who's parents bought him a $40,000 calf from Bohnam who comes with a professional fitter for each body part. It disgusts me that someone would believe differently.

Perhaps the first thing I have ever agreed with  X-Bar is that maybe Guido should be called in when cases like this happen. These judges today are accountable to no one. I think word of a good tar and feathering would do wonders.  Some are the most arrogant people I have ever been around. And what is it with judges that are also breeders and show cattle? You don't have a chance under someone like that if there is another judge/breeder in the same show. I have a "friend" who is a major show judge that I used to think a lot of. But today if one of his judge/breeder buddies is in a show he is judging you might as well save your effort. Some of these guys have absolutely no shame. The things I am talking about here are not a judges ability to choose or sort cattle, everyone has a different opinion, who cares who he picks as long as he respects the exhibitors and offers everyone a fair chance. Character issues are what I am referring to. Which brings me to my last point............

Several people have mentioned that you can't argue that this guy picked the right ones out of the bunch. My question to you would be if they had been the last ones to enter the ring would he still have found them? If not then would you still be saying he picked the right ones? And what if you say no he wouldn't have found them. Then maybe he already knew which ones he was going to pick so there were no need to look at any more?

 

[ZNT]

The chaos coming into the ring was created by the way the judge was picking the cattle.  The first day was not nearly as bad for people jockeying for position as the second day.  I was working on steers in the first and forth class of the second day of judging.  After watching the just pull 10 of the first 26 steers into the ring, then only pulling 3 of remaining 40 steers into the ring, it was clear where you needed to be when walking onto the ring.  The second steer we showed that day, we were 1 hour early for the class, and was still 20th into the ring.

 

[chambero]

It's a little bit of an exageration when foks say he didn't pick any calves from the back of a class.  For example in Class 8, he pulled 9 calves off the walk - the eventual class winner being one of the last calves in.  He made a fairly quick walk around the calves after they set up, found one more, then he was done.  He would pull from the back end, but he got distinctly pickier as a class progressed.  Again, I think he was ony interested in potential class winners.  To get pulled, he had to like one better than what he'd seen before.  I'm convinced that was his mindset.

Ag teachers/county agents have begged for changes at FW forever to no avail.  But FW puts their money behind the show and it is very rewarding if you can make it to the sale - most calves brought $6-$9 per pound.  I think the show likes the difficult nature and intensity of it.  The sift is usually where the drama is.

 

[fed_champions]

Im not gonna type long on here. I watched both days... Thought the judge was lost, cocky in only pulling 10 calves, and i saw several top 5 calves walk straight out the gate. He liked them deep ribbed, and flanked, so show stopper, idk what ur talking about, i didnt see him use any i thought were tight ribbed. But he also didnt mind them being straight fronted, mw champ was straight. As for GC AND RGC, both had minor issues moving off their rear leg. Stocks kinda threw his back legs and walked a bit outside his corners. Newmans was shorter and more restricted in his hip, which made him stab the ground with those back feet. Did anybody see the black, stocking legged calf that got 13 or 14th in class 10. I thought he was the best one in there. Wasnt deep enough for this judge, but he had extension and soundness on the champ and reserve. He was better looking too in my opinion, longer necked than both, shouldve been at least 3rd, which makes me sad for the kid missing the sale with such a good steer

 

[fed_champions]

Well, i guess i did type sort of long lol

 

[chambero]

I meant Class 9 in my example.  Semi out of it from meds trying to deal with the barn crud.

 

[J2F]

The only answer I can come up with with the KISS method is they don't want more kids showing in this event. What else could it be, they figure if they ran it intelligently like other shows then instead of 1000 they would have 3000.Who in their right mind would want 3000 jr agriculture people there having fun and competing. They are probably doing the right thing. If more kids continue to show up may be they should make some knifes like they use on the fighting chickens and put on their animals before the race down the ramp.....that will run some more off. Honestly I don't see where my comments are any more ridiculous then what I am reading about really happen at this show circus.

Again this JMO from and complete outsider looking in.