What ever happened to honest judges

[cowz]

Exactly what rock have you been hiding under cowz?  I know people who actually HIRE people to walk to the ring and take those "oh so important" steps into the ring and tail the calf. Pathetic, but sure effective.

I really have not been living under a rock.   I just decided to throw a rock yesterday.  That kind of crap used to be much more subtle, and was primarily done at state fairs and at the national level.  

But when it is so blatent that even a 9 year old can say.....oh yeah, Sally is showing my steer today because she buys lambs from the judge.....geez!

My point here is we all need to take a deep breath and remember that at the local grass roots level....jackpots and county fairs.....the original intent was for educating.......Education about how to feed and manage a calf, how to win and lose with grace and dignity, etc.  Sometimes the politics get so thick that we are giving the young ones the wrong education in this cynical old world!  Once upon a time, it was a lot more fun!

 

[ploughshare]

edit...  Showing teaches you many life lessons--many of which taught me what path not to go down.

I have to agree.  It's great to win, but you also don't want to win under every judge.  Better to take satisfaction in knowing the good of your own stock and marketing the ones that stay at home for a profit.

 

[Shady Lane]

Showring politics is nothing new.

Always has been and always will be a factor,

However, call me naieve if you like I think it happens far less than most people assume. The fact of the matter is that no judge is ever going to make everybody in the barn happy. Everybody sees the cattle a little differently and if the cattle were sorted by two different judges on the same day I will garuntee that there will be two different outcomes.

A cattle show is entirely subjective and I find this to be little different than any other aspect in life.

Favouritism is always a factor.

Ever had a job interview? Oftentimes job candiadates may be hired because of a reputation in a particular industry or knowing the right people that might help you out.

Ever sold cattle? A reputable breeder or a marketable prefix or pedigree most often equates to a greater selling price than than that from cattle from a "no name" breeder etc.

It's imporatnt that show commitees select judges that are as impartial as possible,  and my belief that th judges should be picked by the exhibitors, afterall they are the ones that make the show and footing the bill to be there. Most times those that complain about unfair judging are the ones that would place lower in class despite the judge and would still complain anyway. It's one mans oppinion on one day, take it for what it's worth and move on. If you continue to present your cattle to their full potential and improve your breeding program you will do better in time.

If you can't handle that you won't likely be in the business for very long.

 

[BABYTEX]

I will not mention any names put my children went to a small jackpot show in Minnesota near Ortonville and the judge at this show had have of the cattle bought from him and had his farm ear tags on in just about every class and yes we have even bought from him but not this year.  Our animal did well but yes we thought it should have been a step higher but I would have thought when asked to judge that he would have declined judging.  I will say that in almost every class judged his cattle were on top.  In the heifer class we ended up third overall and we felt should have been Reserve Supreme Heifer but we did get his placing at a show a couple weeks later.  Just thought maybe it would have been more ethical to decline judging.

 

[klintdog]

We typically take recommendations from our exhibitors for judges they'd like to see, and then put them on a list of names that gets constantly rotated and modified.

Last year at NWSS I sat across the Coliseum from a major breed show that was taking place and watched the bull show. As the judge walked in front of the animals, he reached over and smacked one of the male exhibitors on the butt. Of course, later on this same exhibitor ended up with National Champion Bull. It was disgusting how they didn't even disguise, in the show ring, that they had a relationship. Had I been sitting on the other side I never would ahve seen it though.

 

[Shady Lane]

We typically take recommendations from our exhibitors for judges they'd like to see, and then put them on a list of names that gets constantly rotated and modified.

Last year at NWSS I sat across the Coliseum from a major breed show that was taking place and watched the bull show. As the judge walked in front of the animals, he reached over and smacked one of the male exhibitors on the butt. Of course, later on this same exhibitor ended up with National Champion Bull. It was disgusting how they didn't even disguise, in the show ring, that they had a relationship. Had I been sitting on the other side I never would ahve seen it though.

If a judge is going o slap me on the butt in the ring, SHE had better be cute or else HE may get speared with a show stick.

(lol)

 

[LostFarmer]

Amen to that Shady.  Harpoon would be the new name for that show stick. 

 

[Show Heifer]

I will not mention any names put my children went to a small jackpot show in Minnesota near Ortonville and the judge at this show had have of the cattle bought from him and had his farm ear tags on in just about every class and yes we have even bought from him but not this year.  Our animal did well but yes we thought it should have been a step higher but I would have thought when asked to judge that he would have declined judging.  I will say that in almost every class judged his cattle were on top.  In the heifer class we ended up third overall and we felt should have been Reserve Supreme Heifer but we did get his placing at a show a couple weeks later.  Just thought maybe it would have been more ethical to decline judging.

That doesn't surprise me for one main reason.... we all raise cattle we like (we definately all raise different types of cattle!) so why wouldn't a judge pick his own cattle, since he raised them because he liked them? Seems logical.... maybe not ethical, but logical.

 

[ROMAX]

I will not mention any names put my children went to a small jackpot show in Minnesota near Ortonville and the judge at this show had have of the cattle bought from him and had his farm ear tags on in just about every class and yes we have even bought from him but not this year.  Our animal did well but yes we thought it should have been a step higher but I would have thought when asked to judge that he would have declined judging.  I will say that in almost every class judged his cattle were on top.  In the heifer class we ended up third overall and we felt should have been Reserve Supreme Heifer but we did get his placing at a show a couple weeks later.  Just thought maybe it would have been more ethical to decline judging.

That doesn't surprise me for one main reason.... we all raise cattle we like (we definately all raise different types of cattle!) so why wouldn't a judge pick his own cattle, since he raised them because he liked them? Seems logical.... maybe not ethical, but logical.

Thats kinda a good point!

 

[LostFarmer]

I will not mention any names put my children went to a small jackpot show in Minnesota near Ortonville and the judge at this show had have of the cattle bought from him and had his farm ear tags on in just about every class and yes we have even bought from him but not this year.  Our animal did well but yes we thought it should have been a step higher but I would have thought when asked to judge that he would have declined judging.  I will say that in almost every class judged his cattle were on top.  In the heifer class we ended up third overall and we felt should have been Reserve Supreme Heifer but we did get his placing at a show a couple weeks later.  Just thought maybe it would have been more ethical to decline judging.

That doesn't surprise me for one main reason.... we all raise cattle we like (we definately all raise different types of cattle!) so why wouldn't a judge pick his own cattle, since he raised them because he liked them? Seems logical.... maybe not ethical, but logical.

I have argued that point as well.  We all keep in our barn what we like and tend to look for what we like when asked to judge.  Happened this week at a pig show.  A kid bought a pair of pigs from a broker (me) and took them to the county fair.  The breeder of those pigs was the judge.  After the show I told the judge that he had picked his own.  He was sick as he had told the show superintendent he would judge the show because he didn't know any of his were at the show.  The kid had no idea other than the name was on the COOL papers.  Of course there is the sour sports that say it was rigged.  Then there is those that see the irony of the situation that the judge likes his style of pig.  Was it ethical? 

How about the breeder who sold a dozen calves to a steer jock.  One of these changes hands and ends up at a show where the breeder is asked to judge.  He did not know the kid or family showing but seeing his brand on the hip went with another for Grand as he did not want to be accused of picking his own.  Was it ethical to take a inferior calf to win because the best one was one of his?  I watched the show and had the breeders calf picked to win it all running away.  Many of us at the rail had that opinion.  In this case there was no way for the judge to get it right. 

LF

 

[olsun]

I have never judged a cattle show, but I do judge another specieof animals. I can promise all of tou that judges sure dom't judge to make friends. No matter how well you feel you have placed them, you cannot make everyone happy. As long as I can justify the placings to myself, I consider it a job well done. Even with the best of intentions I still make mistakes, all judges do. Believe me, when you discover that you have made a mistake, you also have to live with it. That said, I'm sure I haven't made my last one.

 

[afhm]

The ones straight out of college are some of the worst.  They are more easily influenced and play the alma mater game big time.  Also if little brother or sister is still showing, any other judge's kids will win so the family can do good when the tables are turned.    They get a huge thrill from all the attention the big time  breeders and jocks pay them and will usually bow down to them.  Most of the college judgers do real good when there is 1 or 4 in a class but if there are more than 4 they are in trouble because are taught to judge 4 head of market animals.  They really get confused in the breeding shows, take notice their champions on this side of the arena have a more market type look.  They have all been told that when you don't know what to do or can't find the best one to take the pretty one that will look good inthe pictures. so people will think you're smarter than you are.

You mean at one point in time there were honest judges?

Those would be the ones fresh out of college......before the " I bought a calf from your brother, you owe me bunch" gets ahold.  If in doubt, hire a young judge with a true cattle background.

Interestingly, a large group of people boycotted the largest jackpot show in Colorado this summer over having the worst political judge of all time being hired.  Pretty easy to place the class based on WHO is at halter....or WHO whacks the calf in the butt as they come into the ring.   It was interesting to see who was at halter in place of a 9 year old.  It was so obvious it made me sick!  IT IS TIME FOR A FEW OF THESE GOOD OLD BOYS TO GIVE IT UP.   I'm a little tired of 50 year old 4-Hers.  This is for the kids....not the fitters.....sigh.

 

[Cowfarmer65]

I have never judged a cattle show, but I do judge another specieof animals. I can promise all of tou that judges sure dom't judge to make friends. No matter how well you feel you have placed them, you cannot make everyone happy. As long as I can justify the placings to myself, I consider it a job well done. Even with the best of intentions I still make mistakes, all judges do. Believe me, when you discover that you have made a mistake, you also have to live with it. That said, I'm sure I haven't made my last one.

Well said. I do judge and when I do, I go out with the attitude that I'm there to make one person happy on that day.........myself........If it's not something that I'd like walkin' my pastures, I won't pick it..........If friends are showing that day......I find out how good of a friend they are, cause if they can't take my criticism of their cattle.......maybe we shouldn't have been friends. I'm there to judge cattle. Not everyone outside the ring will agree with my decisions, but if I'm consistant throughout the day and my reasons are accurate, that's what matters.

 

[Aussie]

This is a great thread a point of view from a long way away. Cowfarmer65 says it well. When I have fortunate enough to judge and my objective is after classes to have a line of cattle for the championship of all the same type. The type I like. That's what I have asked to do select the type I like. I don't care who is on the halter and how much they stick out their assets it is hfr development I am interested in not the halter holders. I try to go through the barn after judging to answer queries take criticism and explain why I did what I did. It is as said many times one persons opinion and everyone sees cattle differently some like them with more frame some like them thick and round.
I once took a bull to a show that I knew would not suit the judge. He was framey the judge liked them thick and fat. Stood towards the end but someone in the crowd liked him and I did not have to take him home. Showing is about IMO promoting what you can breed and do with your cattle the judge has his say but remember the crowd will have a lot of judges in it to

 

[Show Heifer]

It works both ways, a judge is going to pick what they like and therefore, what is in their own pasture (if they even own cows), and most exhibitors (not some juniors) show what we like, and therefore what is in our pasture.  (Many juniors only want a show project, and have no intention of ever owning/raising cattle.)
I showed a heifer I bought several years ago, when getting in a new breed. I bought her as a cow, not a show heifer. I showed her anyway, and stood in the middle of the pack. A "fellow breeder" and breed represententive ask a friend of mine "isn't she embarrassed that she paid all that money and stook in the middle?" Her reply was "No, but you can ask her yourself". 
The judges comments were "This heifer here is the problem heifer of the class, she is all about broodiness and production, and not a lot about pretty. For that reason I have to put her in the 7th position."  I will take that comment with a smile ANY DAY.
Since then, she has produced a resever division champ heifer, and might be tough again this year. She also has a heifer calf that will be tough again in the baby heifer division.  Time will tell, but I am proud of them regardless of what some judge thinks of them.

 

[GONEWEST]

what ever happened to honest people?  it doesn't matter what the profession, the ratio seems about the same.

it is foolish to think that raising people to a profession somehow changes them.

I believe that is a better question. However, if you want to be involved in this endeavor, you had better just get used to politics, dishonesty, and  plain ol' bad judges. It's one reason I enjoy horse racing so much, first one there wins no doubt about it.
However, if I were the presidents cattle show czar, first thing I would do is ban all recent college judging team members who give those canned reasons that they spit out for what ever happened to be in front of them. You know, the reasons that would fit for any set of animals you happen to throw out there. Closely following that I would ban breeders, especially those who also show cattle, from being judges. Over the last two years I have witnessed some placings and decisions at large open shows that I would absolutely be ashamed to do all because that exhibitor was going to be judging the judges animals in an upcoming show. Blows my mind. Too much of a conflict of interest there. And to me those SHOULD be the best ones.

 

[iheartcattle]

Does everyone think it is politics in just the animal rings? what about showmanship? I was didnt make finals at one show bc i was too relaxed! Then I was like ok, next showmanship ill kick up my intensity. I stood 4th at the next show and i didnt even get told what i did wrong. all he commented on was my intensity and how he appreciated it, and told the younger showman  to take note. it make you stand out! so i was liike wtf? but i grew up showing the the guy. is that my fault? and when i went to say something after the show, he still wouldnt tell my why i was placed 4th and what i did wrong compared to the three ahead of me.

 

[loveRedcows]

They're out there....but usually aren't invited back!