What would the Shorthorn breed look like today if Improver was never imported

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mark tenenbaum

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Very well put; and judging from the pics in RN Reeds post I think the phenotypic goals for different bred cattle are similar in the end.-and I think Guiness never got the credit as a breeder he deserved-He sired great females(the Mona Lisa line in the US for example) and his influence worked better with the cattle over here ; Canada,and in Australia (DCC Prophet his son is in many pedigrees today) than alot of bulls-And is TH PHA free other than DS (I dont know on that) There still arent any Shorthorns today that put a square hip and rear like the Irish breeding did in one generation-When I first saw the KABA hiefers: Rose,and a bunch the Schillings had-they just blew me away-many can cry on about the ruination of the breed-But I loved the look,and not all of them were carriers-or hard calversO0
 

librarian

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Thanks. Insight like this is why SP is great. I don't do Facebook, so it's interesting that the topic of Super Flag is spontaneously erupting.
Okotoks, have you maintained a cow family with no Irish breeding? If so, how do they differ?
Did you perceive the market to be for Irish percentage bulls, replacements or both?
Do you think the Irish percentage was an improvement (no pun) on the Mandalong influenced cows you had built into your herd? Did you save the Irish crossed cows or did you use your own Irish cross bulls back on the original cows? Should I just study the pedigrees and stop asking so many questions? I have to do some work sometime and I'm afraid to start studying the breeding for fear I won't get anything else done.
And, in your herd before Mandalong, were the cows at all like those robust 1920's milking shorthorns I am so fond of?
If they used Scotch type bulls on those big milk cattle for 30 years, would that be the base of most "native" Canadian Shorthorns? (Native to Canada)
If not, what is the native Canada base?

 

shortyjock89

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aj said:
I don't know if it is true or not......but it looks like the Shorthorn shows are trending towards cattle that are carriers of genetic defects. If it gets to a point where every class winner is say thc......I don't know.....seems like a bad trend to me.

Uhhh. No. This is so far from the truth. You spout absolute crap and then say that everyone gangs up on you.

Show me the last national  champion bull or female that is a TH carrier. Please.
 

Okotoks

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librarian said:
Thanks. Insight like this is why SP is great. I don't do Facebook, so it's interesting that the topic of Super Flag is spontaneously erupting.
Okotoks, have you maintained a cow family with no Irish breeding? If so, how do they differ?
Did you perceive the market to be for Irish percentage bulls, replacements or both?
Do you think the Irish percentage was an improvement (no pun) on the Mandalong influenced cows you had built into your herd? Did you save the Irish crossed cows or did you use your own Irish cross bulls back on the original cows? Should I just study the pedigrees and stop asking so many questions? I have to do some work sometime and I'm afraid to start studying the breeding for fear I won't get anything else done.
And, in your herd before Mandalong, were the cows at all like those robust 1920's milking shorthorns I am so fond of?
If they used Scotch type bulls on those big milk cattle for 30 years, would that be the base of most "native" Canadian Shorthorns? (Native to Canada)
If not, what is the native Canada base?
Here is a cow by one of the first irish influenced bulls we used, Deer Trail Private Eye. 6U would be 1/8 Irish, 1/4 Milking and 5/8 beef. This cow had only one cross of Mandalong Super Flag.
DEERPARK IMPROVER 2 -[US]3693924-
                DEER TRAIL GOLIATH -M456769-
        MAR VEL STYLISH 43 D67 72 X-[US]3610572-
DEER TRAIL PRIVATE EYE X-M457023-
CLARK X-[US]3534244-D
WOODLAND DORIS 817 X-[US]3664185-
BROMELEE K RED DORIS 4TH X-F599284-
DIAMOND URANIUM SUSAN 6U
FRIMLEY DIAMOND FLAG 7J X-M448539-
DIAMOND TAURUS 4L -M451585-
DIAMOND RED BELLE 24G X-F618084-
DIAMOND PLATINUM SUSAN 5P -F638870-
                WESTON ABLO -M450570-
                FRIMLEY AMETHYST SUSAN 7M X-F633395-
                              FRIMLEY TAMMY SUSAN 11G X-F616740-


 

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aj

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We were discussing the reward this bull on here. He was a class champ or divison champ or something. I think the bull Damn Proud was shown. I think the stigma is gone about showing th bulls.
 

Tyler

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
aj said:
I don't know if it is true or not......but it looks like the Shorthorn shows are trending towards cattle that are carriers of genetic defects. If it gets to a point where every class winner is say thc......I don't know.....seems like a bad trend to me.

Uhhh. No. This is so far from the truth. You spout absolute crap and then say that everyone gangs up on you.

Show me the last national  champion bull or female that is a TH carrier. Please.

I'm not taking sides in this debate but the Champion Shorthorn Plus in Denver was a Monopoly daughter.  Don't know her TH status though.

AJ must get cabin fever pretty bad, I think it was last year around this time that he stirred everybody up and got booted from steerplanet.  It's entertaining to say the least!
 

librarian

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Thanks, that will sure give me something to ponder.
Although it may not be relevant to this topic, I would sure like to see a picture of Weston Ablo if you have one.
 

aj

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Would it be bad policy for the association to list on the show day paper......the defect conditions of the cattle?
 

oakview

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Listing the defect status in the show program for the judge would be at least as useful and accurate as the EPDs to many people. 

Damn Proud and the Reward bull referenced earlier were shown and evidently are TH carriers, but they were not grand champions at Louisville.  Both are good bulls to look at, but I think the point is you do not HAVE TO HAVE TH in an animal to win a show.  I think Sable 01 was a TH carrier that won Louisville years ago.  There may have been others before we knew what was going on.
 

aj

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Lets test everything. I think we are trending toward showing more thc's every year. Your national champion arguement is pretty darn antedotal. TEST EM. We don't know where we are. Prove me wrong and test em.
 

shortyjock89

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Man, they've been tested. The prominent breeders are way more responsible than you give credit for. Sullivan, Cates, CYT, WHR, Jungles, Schrags, and everyone else that is selling relevant Shorthorn bulls are testing them and are definitely not selling more carriers year after year. I can try to look up numbers on this when I get home from Denver.

Next up- Strawman arguments, hypocrisy, and not understanding burden of proof after making (at best) anecdotal claims.
 

knabe

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aj said:
Lets test everything. I think we are trending toward showing more thc's every year. Your national champion arguement is pretty darn antedotal. TEST EM. We don't know where we are. Prove me wrong and test em.

why oh why did you take a carrier to Denver.

why o why don't you MAKE SOMETHING using ones that are defect free.

that way you can tell us where you are.

answer?  because you waste too much time telling other people what to do.

prove it can be done and make something.

otherwise, you are an idiot.

notice I didn't actually call you an idiot.


 

knabe

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aj said:
Would it be bad policy for the association to list on the show day paper......the defect conditions of the cattle?

would it be bad policy for you to make something someone wanted instead of mouthing off on this in every post?
 

GM

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I just thought of another example of the shorthorn breed not chasing TH. (Not that we need anymore examples, but I think it's an interesting testament to the big breeders approach to not propagating the defect).  In the early 2000's there were 2 Shorthorn Bulls that sold for $100,000 - Reno & Centurion.  Obviously, commanding prices like that is kinda a big deal and a lot of people saw these Bulls as "the next big things".  I, along with others I knew, were shocked when it was published in Shorthorn Country that they were THC.  Although they were bred different and looked different they had one thing in common - Improver 57 as a grand sire.  Despite the early hype and promotion, these Bulls are relatively unknown today and not found very often in pedigrees.  I believe this is due in large part to them carrying a lethal defect, TH.. 

Now for the Paul Harvey "The Rest of the Story".  There was another bull born in 03 that didn't receive the pomp and circumstance that followed Reno and Centurion.  Not sure he came close to 6 figures either.  However, similar to his THC cousins, this bull had Improver 57 as a great grand sire.  Fortunately, unlike his cousins he nor his parents or grand parents inherited the lethal defect.  He was an outstanding, beautiful R/W/M bull purchased by a new breeder who had big plans for the future.  In only a matter of 3 years this bull, without the aid of TH, would go on to change the Shorthorn showring forever, and make people all but forget about Deerpark Improver and TH.  The Bulls name was CF Solution and the upstart breeder who selected him was Sullivan.  CF Solution sired the most recent National Champion and Reserve National Champion Shorthorn Bulls...something he has done many times previously.
 

aj

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Precedents are being set......now.....in all breeds. The new dna tests are something to deal with. What we do the next 5 years will set precedents.
 

mark tenenbaum

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NPS Durando-born 1997 and a direct son of 57th and Rose T-90 also had a huge impact-being the sire of one of the most prolific national Champion doners Sullivan ever had-NPS Desert Rose born 2000:the National Champion Hahn female, and 50 pages (and counting) of animals sired by him at Short. Org-Hes Th pha clean.  O0
 
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