What's Wrong With This

[6M Ranch]

Just got the scan results back from our county fair.  Grand Champion steer placed 42nd out of 50 scanned.  Grade was select.  Several of the top placing animals scanned in the bottom 40%.  We also had two dark cutters who placed 2nd and 3rd in their class.  Is it any wonder that people who raise cattle for a living make fun of our pampered hairballs? 

 

[3GCC]

talked to the buyer of my sons steer today and they said the processor told them it was the best that they had seen this year.    He was 4th out of 6th in class and sold 25th out of 35. And they processed at least 1/2 of the steers this year.

 

[renegade]

A dark cutter shouldnt effect how they place in class cause there is no way to tell - Its mainly from like stress isnt it

 

[Show Heifer]

6M Ranch: No, it isn't a wonder why people that raise beef for a living make fun of the pampered hairballs. You nailed it, cha-ching!

And dark cutters is from stress....staying in a dark room, at 40 degrees with fans on for hours, being tied up the head up for hours, being washed in all sorts of weather, being fed God knows what. and bring trained by donkey, 4-wheeler, tractor....heck, what is there stress over?????

 

[Cattledog]

A dark cutter shouldnt effect how they place in class cause there is no way to tell - Its mainly from like stress isnt it

No matter what you do a steer that has been taken to a bunch of shows will most likely not hang a real good carcass.  An animal nutrition professor told me that when cattle become stressed they start to burn their marbling up.  Another thing to consider, do people really think that bulls like Heatwave(nothing against just using as an example) are going to make the market ideal for carcass?  Some of the best carcass sires are in the angus breed and I wouldn't breed them to my dead dog, and I raise angus.  My point is the best carcass bulls in the angus breed seem to sire flat muscled and trashy fronted cattle. 

 

[6M Ranch]

These results bring up a lot of other things to consider.
1)  When judges make comments about grading choice, do well on the rail, etc.  They either a) don't know what they're talking about b) don't care because it's a beauty contest.
2)  Admit that we are raising SHOW animals, and not cattle for the beef industry.  Which is fine, just don't pretend otherwise.
3)  Start using scans as 1/2 of your score for overall grand.  One show in this area already does that.
4)  Do away with the 20 page record books for 4H.  Kids are not raising beef, most will probably not enter the beef industry, most beef producers don't keep records this extensive, kids are not capable of filling these out by themselves, doesn't represent a true operation.  (Record books are a VERY sore topic with me.  If interested, you can go here to see our senior record books for market beef.  http://4hweb.ext.colostate.edu/project_resources/livestock-projects/beef/u03-market_beef.shtml)
5)  Not saying dark cutters can be detected, just a reflection on the quality of beef we're producing.  Heard comments from buyers that they wouldn't buy animals at the sale anymore because of the quality of meat.

 

[Dusty]

6M Ranch: No, it isn't a wonder why people that raise beef for a living make fun of the pampered hairballs. You nailed it, cha-ching!

And dark cutters is from stress....staying in a dark room, at 40 degrees with fans on for hours, being tied up the head up for hours, being washed in all sorts of weather, being fed God knows what. and bring trained by donkey, 4-wheeler, tractor....heck, what is there stress over?????

You're an idiot.  Most coolers are 55-65 not 40 degrees.  Washing in the wintertime has nothing to do with a steer being a darkcutter in august.  Most club calves are broke in the fall so that in no way is going to effect how they cut the next summer.
The #1 group of animals that are dark cutters are bottle calves.  I know that at most fairs the freddy's have more dark cutters than the real cattle showers do.  Get your facts straight before you shoot off your mouth....

 

[6M Ranch]

Not sure we need to call people idiots for expressing an opinion that differs from yours.  At our fair, I don't think any of the market animals started as bucket calves.  The dark cutters at our fair were from "real cattle showers".  Two of the top three carcasses were from catch-it steers, the so-called "freddy's".  I think we need to get away from these extreme calves, and back to "real cattle". 

 

[Steered]

They don't have the 2008 results up yet but here is a link to the 2007 KJLS carcass rusults. http://www.kjls.org/ShowYear/2007/CarcassResults.pdf  These are from harvested carcasses not just scan data.  They were 49% choice and 68% Y2 or better.  The yeild grade results are pretty good but the 49% choice is sad.  These cattle have been on feed for close to a year by the time they are harvested and they can't make more that 50% choice and there were 2 standards.  A year or two before these results there were a couple dark cutters, but none in 2007.  I realize these are "show cattle" but they do still end up as food for some consumer.  A DVM and ultrasound tech that we had come to our county to talk on ultraound data stated that IMF ( marbling) was the last to be deposited and the first to leave when taken off feed or when stressed.    I think that some of these calves whose weights are being held can't marble by this explanation. 

 

[maine106]

I get that people do not like show cattle and take every opportunity they can to knock them.  What I do not get is why hang around a board that has a high percentage of people that show?! 

In defense of Dusty the posts from Show Heifer are usually not filled with facts.  Here is a study that reaches far beyond a county fair and show cattle and address dark cutters in the feedlots:  http://www.grandin.com/references/dark.cutters.html  It anyone is not familiar with Temple Grandin you should do some reading.  Here is another good one:  http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_dark_cutters/

What I was taught in meat science and what the articles reflect to an extent is that handling immediately before kill is the key.  Not months and months of handling. 

 

[dori36]

6M Ranch: No, it isn't a wonder why people that raise beef for a living make fun of the pampered hairballs. You nailed it, cha-ching!

And dark cutters is from stress....staying in a dark room, at 40 degrees with fans on for hours, being tied up the head up for hours, being washed in all sorts of weather, being fed God knows what. and bring trained by donkey, 4-wheeler, tractor....heck, what is there stress over?????

You're an idiot.  Most coolers are 55-65 not 40 degrees.  Washing in the wintertime has nothing to do with a steer being a darkcutter in august.  Most club calves are broke in the fall so that in no way is going to effect how they cut the next summer.
The #1 group of animals that are dark cutters are bottle calves.  I know that at most fairs the freddy's have more dark cutters than the real cattle showers do.  Get your facts straight before you shoot off your mouth....

Calling someone  and idiot (and accusing them of 'shooting off their mouth') who, whether or not you care to acknowledge it, has made a statement of opinion is totally uncalled for.  We all "shoot off our mouths" in one way or another as we express our opinions here.  It's what this list is about.  As a cattle raiser for many years I'll offer this:  if you think that once they're broke, there's no stress in leading and tying (heads up for hours even after they're "broke"), think again.  And spending time indoors rather than outdoors grazing - stress.  And hauling around the country from fair/show to show - stress.  Stress can come in many ways.  A little self education and looking at the bigger picture would be beneficial for you.

 

[red]

I have to agree w/ you Dori. I might always agree w/ Show Hef but I don't believe her to be an idiot.
This board is comprised of both club calf breeders, commercial breeders & people that just like cattle.
To be honest I learned a lot here. I thought dark cutters was more of a result of poor injections & trauma to the calf by striking or some other force.

Red

 

[dori36]

I have to agree w/ you Dori. I might always agree w/ Show Hef but I don't believe her to be an idiot.
This board is comprised of both club calf breeders, commercial breeders & people that just like cattle.
To be honest I learned a lot here. I thought dark cutters was more of a result of poor injections & trauma to the calf by striking or some other force.

Red

I think injection site blemishes (which are cut off during processing and result in less retail product and led to BQA) are localized as would be serious bruising.  Dark cutter problems usually involve all the muscle, even if no obvious trauma occurs.  I believe most research is pointing at stress, particularly at slaughter but possible also in the days/weeks leading up to slaughter, as the main factor.  Interestingly, at our local, and very large and wonderful, farmers' market during the summer, there is an outfit that sells their home grown beef.  They're one of the Amish families and I believe they do all their own slaughter, cutting, wrapping and freezing.  Every time I open the coolers to view the beef, I'm amazed at the very dark muscle color.  Now, I realize that in the retail counter the wrap is oxygen permeable so the meat stays cherry red.  And that the freezer vacuum wrap doesn't allow the same "benefit" .  But none of my own beef processed for me from my own steers at a small local facility are this color.  I guess I don't want to know where the stress came from with the farmers' market beef!!

 

[justintime]

Thanks Dori for your last post. I have been a bit shocked at the level of disrespect that some members have on this board from time to time. Calling anyone an idiot is totally uncalled for. We all will not agree from time to time, on a variety of topics, but that is NEVER grounds to call anyone an idiot .....or any other derogatory name. I find this name calling says more about the person who says it, than who it is intended for. Mr. dusty, I would suggest that you think about this for a few minutes, and I would also suggest that you owe Show Heifer an apology.

In regards to the topic at hand, I have been chairman of the Canadian Western Agribition Carcass show on two occasions. We have had a constant issue with dark cutters and with poor grading steers and heifers. We have tried as many things as we could to handle these cattle properly from the time they arrived.The most significant thing we did was cancelling the live portion of the show. The number of dark cutters dropped significantly when we dropped the live show. That indicates to me that there is more stress than we all expect from showing these critters.

 

[6M Ranch]

I'm sorry I brought up the dark cutters.  The point of my original post was the extreme difference between the overall grand and several division grands and their carcass quality.  Seems like show cattle are getting too extreme in structure and muscling.  Too many animals aren't able to walk without drugs because of poor structure.  TH and PHA are extremely prevalent in show cattle sires.  Not sure what they would be, but I would like to see some rule changes to bring back some normalcy.

 

[red]

I'm sorry I brought up the dark cutters.  The point of my original post was the extreme difference between the overall grand and several division grands and their carcass quality.  Seems like show cattle are getting too extreme in structure and muscling.  Too many animals aren't able to walk without drugs because of poor structure.  TH and PHA are extremely prevalent in show cattle sires.  Not sure what they would be, but I would like to see some rule changes to bring back some normalcy.

6M you had an excellent point. Sometimes threads have a way of going off the original topic.
I think that showing how the grand champion stacks up to the other cattle in a carcass display is an excellent way of showing how show cattle work in the real world.

Red

 

[dori36]

I get that people do not like show cattle and take every opportunity they can to knock them.  What I do not get is why hang around a board that has a high percentage of people that show?! 

In defense of Dusty the posts from Show Heifer are usually not filled with facts.  Here is a study that reaches far beyond a county fair and show cattle and address dark cutters in the feedlots:  http://www.grandin.com/references/dark.cutters.html  It anyone is not familiar with Temple Grandin you should do some reading.  Here is another good one:  http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_dark_cutters/

What I was taught in meat science and what the articles reflect to an extent is that handling immediately before kill is the key.  Not months and months of handling. 

I can't speak for others here, nor am I quite sure who you're referring to as  taking every opportunity to knock show cattle, but for me personally, even though most of my experience has been with cattle being raised to eat, I also have had some success with my show cattle.  I think the sharing of cattle knowledge from both sides of the industry is important and useful.  I also believe, regardless of the specie, when showing is the end-all/be-all, fads arrise as judges decide which body types they prefer and people quickly change their programs to chase that "ideal" type.  Cattle, horses, horses, sheep, dogs - well you get the idea.  Fads have done more damage to good, useful animals than any other activity - imo.  Steers in a feedlot that can't walk, have so much hair so as to be not able to dissapate heat, have such huge bone that on the rail the amount of retail cuts is less than 50% won't earn much.  A cattle operation that routinely had to plan on somewhere around a 30% rate of c-sections wouldn't be in business for long. I think what's missing sometime with cattle people who only focus on the show steer business is that they can tend to lose sight of what is going on and needed in the beef cattle industry at large.  All that said, I love to show cattle and love the whole process of getting them fit and fed to look their best in the ring.  However, I've been involved in purebred breed showing where fads are surely bad enough, but not at quite the level that steer showing is.  I guess I could opine that show steer "people" don't have a clue of what the feeder needs, but that would be just as unfair and narrow minded as thinking that everyone here should only be interested in show steers.  And, Temple Grandin - I have tremendous respect for her and her work.  I was able to secure her as our speaker at the annual Lowline Registry Denver "Bash" a few years ago.  She was awesome!

 

[Dusty]

Mr. dusty, I would suggest that you think about this for a few minutes, and I would also suggest that you owe Show Heifer an apology.

After thinking about it, I apologize to Show Heifer for exposing her ignorance.  The only difference between me and a lot of other people on this board is I just say what I think as opposed to not saying anything.....

 

[red]

Mr. dusty, I would suggest that you think about this for a few minutes, and I would also suggest that you owe Show Heifer an apology.

After thinking about it, I apologize to Show Heifer for exposing her ignorance.   The only difference between me and a lot of other people on this board is I just say what I think as opposed to not saying anything.....

Dusty- you are a born politician!

 

[Dusty]

Back to the original topic.  The show cattle I've been around have actually cut pretty good.  The top steer at the county fair carcass contest last year was a sunseeker and was choice and  IMO could have went prime pretty easy.  He tasted good too...  He also lived in a cooler, had his head tied up for 3-4 hours a night and it didn't bother his carcass any....  The ones that are usually the dark cutters are the ones that are broke two weeks before fair behind a 4020.  Also bottle calves have a higher incidence of being a dark cutter because they are more used to people than cattle and can't handle the stress of being with other cattle and getting banged around.