What's Wrong With This

[renegade]

Honestly Show Heifer was kinda calling me an idiot without coming out and saying. I just know after that message I felt like an idiot and that I was totally wrong. She probably didnt even mean it like that - it was just the "tone" i guess of the message. 

I know our beef superintendent was trying to get it to where we put more emphasis on the carcass contest and less on the live show because in his opinion thats what its all about - and technically he is right but showing is just so darn fun

 

[simtal]

just to add my two cents on the dark cutter thing, dark cutters are a very seasonal phenomenon.  We just sent 435 last week and had 22 dark cutters.  We've had this problem ever since we started a fall calving herd.  I really think that nobody knows the exact reason for dark cutters.  Also, dark cutters are great tasting and quite palatable/safe. 

 

[farmboy]

Honestly Show Heifer was kinda calling me an idiot without coming out and saying. I just know after that message I felt like an idiot and that I was totally wrong. She probably didnt even mean it like that - it was just the "tone" i guess of the message.   

you were not called an idiot renegade

 

[justintime]

After many years of following steer competitions that have a live show as well as a carcass judging component, it has become apparent to me that most judges today do not have a good idea of what is under the hide. There used to be several of these competitions here in Canada, but we are now down to only one which is at the Calgary Stampede. In 2007, we sent two steers to this competition. These steers were shown in two classes in the live judging and to our dismay they each placed 8th in the live judging. We had thought that these were two pretty good steers and we also thought they were carrying excellent fat cover. We were a little concerned that one of these steers would lose a few points for carcass size. After the live judging was over, we gave up any hope of receiving any prize money.

Two weeks later the carcass results were announced. Our two steers ended up placing 3rd and 8th out of 48 steers. The steer that ended up 3rd was 1 point from being the Reserve Champion. He would have moved up if he had either placed one place higher in the live judging, or had not lost two points for his carcass size. ( I was our other steer that we were concerned about losing points for carcass size). This steer dressed 66% which bumped his carcass weight into the catagory which resulted in the 2 point penalty. If our two steers had only been placed using the carcass points, they would have been Grand Champion and 5th out of 48 steers.Even standing 3rd and 8th in this show resulted in us getting $2700 in prize money which still made it worthwhile. These were Shorthorn X Angus steers that were sired by our white Double Vision son that I have pictured on here a few times.
As a point of interest, in the 2008 Calgary Stampeded carcass show, the Reserve grand steer placed dead last in the live judging, and his carcass was good enough to move him up to reserver grand when the live and carcass points were combined. This steer was a Sin City steer out of an Angus/ maine female.

The live steer portion of this show has been judged by some of the most qualified judges in the beef industry, adn every year, there are some big surprises when the hide comes off and the carcasses are judged.

 

[itk]

As usual there are 2 sides to every story. Before we get to hard on the carcass ability of the "showsteers" remember there can be numerous phenotype issues with more "commercial" looking cattle. In theory you could get a 3 legged steer to grade choice with enough TLC. Should he be able to place above a 4 legged steer who might not grade as well? I feel that carcass data has no place in the showring. If carcass data is your thing there are hundreds of carcass contests where you can enter a pen of steers. In Kansas we have the Beef Empire Days that has a huge live and carcass contest. I have never talked to a club calf breeder complain about not doing well despite having the best calves phenotypically. In fact I don't think a club calf guy has ever even entered in it. Yet at every county fair there is a slick haired frail made calf that hangs a good carcass that complains about getting a red ribbon despite obvious phenotype flaws. The showring and feedlot are apples and oranges. To me taking a "commercial" calf to a show is like taking a knife to a gun fight and wondering why you can't win. Especially when there are a bunch of knife fights you can get into.

 

[Show Heifer]

I appreciate the support I have gotten from some of you, but dusty is right I am an idiot. I have NO credit card debt, I OWN my farm, I drive a vehicle that is paid for, I just attended a few very nice sales and left with with a trailer full, I have raised several grand champions on a few species, I have won showmanship contests, I am respected not only in my county, but my area, and have been approached for jobs I feel I am not qualified for. Did I mention I am INVESTING in the stock market as we chat, and I still have a savings account. So yes, I am an idiot. But, I am a successful idiot that can sleep very well at night. ZZZZZZZZZZ.

And by the way, I stand by my orginal post. Show animals are stressed almost daily. Regardless of the time of year. But, I guess I have started calling it a show steer show, and a market steer show. I do not expect Ms. America to be a brain surgeon, and I do not expect a show steer to have an exceptional carcass. They are not comparable: a show steer and a feedlot steer. You can not compare the two, nor can you ever get the two to "get along." Kinda like democrats and republicans.

By the way, did anyone hear how the Iowa champs hung?

 

[Cattledog]

I am still having a hard time understanding why it is such a big deal that show steers don't make as good of carcass animals as those in the feedlot.  To me they are two different types of animals.  Does everyone think that some of these cool show steers would excel on concrete?  When a judge makes a comment about a steer looking like he would excel on the rail he is just looking at the outward appearance of finish.  I think this topic has been way overblown.  Seriously, if you go and find the best carcass steer in a feedlot you would probably say wow there is no way he would ever show.  I am trying not to offend anyone, but my gosh let's all just try to realize that the show industry is quite a bit different than the production industry. 

 

[DL]

Mr. dusty, I would suggest that you think about this for a few minutes, and I would also suggest that you owe Show Heifer an apology.

After thinking about it, I apologize to Show Heifer for exposing her ignorance.  The only difference between me and a lot of other people on this board is I just say what I think as opposed to not saying anything.....

Actually the difference between you and a lot of other people on this board is that you are RUDE and while you have "apologized to Show Heifer for exposing her ignorance" you have exposed your own rudeness and egocentricity - an apology to Show Heifer for your rudeness (rather than a snide remark) would have been more appropriate and perhaps appreciated by many on the board.

Most studies of dark cutters have been done in feed lot situations - since feed lots are very different from the life of the show steer extrapolating from one situation to the other is fraught with the danger of over or under analyzing the outcome - suffice it to say that stress is certainly related to dark cutters and that it is unlikely that we currently understand all the stresses that can result in dark cutters - anything that results in decreased glycogen in the muscle can result in dark cutters

ttp://www.grandin.com/references/dark.cutters.html
ttp://www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/livestock/aps-98_03/aps-891.html

 

[shortyisqueen]

As an interesting aside, traits that are exhibited by a carcass winning steer can also NOT be acceptable in the commercial world. ei, ski feet that would cause a sister of that steer (who was slaughtered at 14 months) to not be able to walk through the pastures until she was 12 years old. Hanging up a perfect carcass might not be the "be all and end all" of the beef industry, but perhaps a balance of all traits necessary for economical and efficient beef production is??

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

ITs All Rigged these days. I say we Judge the Judges, cause their the ones who screw it all up for the people who love to cry about it. Remember its not what you know, but who you know. SWEET

 

[knabe]

Yet at every county fair there is a slick haired frail made calf that hangs a good carcass that complains about getting a red ribbon despite obvious phenotype flaws.

to me, this is totally obvious why this would happen.  if there's less meat for the same amount of marbling to be laid down inbetween, and you have the same genetic makeup for marbling, it makes sense that less meat equals more marbling.  proven by heifers grading better than steers, holsteins grading better than just about anything, flatter muscled angus grading better than muscled angus, right on down the line.  i will say, that comparing the color of meat over three years among many breeds, herefords had the most unique colored meat of any breed.  it was a lighter colored red.  always made me wonder if they just had a smaller flecked marbling that you couldn't see as easily.

 

[C-CROSS]

Well the Western Jr Livestock show got over and the grand and reserve live we raised and sold last year, the grand was also grand carcass the the resever was close behind.  I think alot more is involved that some want to admit.  We raise the Club calves, have 250 cows and what doesn't sell we have been feeding out for the last 5 years and there are gone to slaughter by the end of April.  We calve in March and April.  Those clubby sires can and will yeild and grade, have the numbers to prove it.

 

[chambero]

6M:  In my opinion, a big part of the reasons behind carcass quality of show steers is due to the feeders, not genetics.  It is pretty well documented with real carcass data (not scans) that the popular show steer bloodlines are perfectly capable of hanging high quality carcasses that grade choice as well as hitting other targets.  For publicly available results, see the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo.  They have years of data that refute almost every claim about the poor quality of show steer carcasses.  

What I've seen happen at county shows is that judges are faced with a choice to make.  Most county shows aren't that and that aren't that many good calves at them.  So a judge has to decide if he's willing to place a lighter weight calf higher, that isn't quite "done", over a finished calf that is not very good phenotypically.  I have no problem with this choice - its a steer show.  Don't know if that was the case at your show or not.  But if it was, it is certainly hard to fault the choice that was made since the calves weren't actually butchered.  

Jen:

I'll try to be a little more diplomatic about the point I think Dusty was trying to make.

I'm guessing you don't have or haven't worked extremely closely with someone that keeps a calf in a cooler.  I don't use one now, but did back in the 90s.  Coolers are actually used for the very reason to avoid stress on cattle in the heat of the summer.  Yes, we're trying to get more hair, but the real benefit is to keep them cooler to keep them eating during the heat - because we are trying to get them fatter faster.  I guarantee you that steers kept in a cooler or under fans/misters in the dark are under less stress in the summer than a calf some kid keeps in shed.  Or one out in a feedlot.  Calves tied up aren't under stress either.  Just think about it, how much time does a calf out in the pasture or in the feedlot spend standing every day?  

Most show steers that are selected and fed for the highest levels of competition today are actually fed to be too fat in my opinion.  We are getting these calves really short and the maternal bloodlines they come from are "easy doers".  Do folks realize how many of these steers sires have Ohlde Angus or even shorthorn in their pedigrees?  Honestly, these animals grade choice pretty easily when fed correctly.  Slow growing them even adds to their ability to grade.  

Show steers are stressed when we pull them hard, which unfortunately is done very often.  Those have been the majority of the dark cutters I've seen, but even that isn't very predictable.  Some of the calves we've had the past we've pulled down the hardest graded just fine.  We pulled 250 pounds off of one of my sister's steers in 1993 that won Champion Maine at Houston and he hung an excellent carcass that placed in the top ten.  Judges could make a difference on this issue as its obvious when a calf is that much larger than his weight.  But, I've think I've been seeing some moderation on this issue in the last two-three years.  Its most visible down here at Fort Worth.

On carcass quality issues on show steers, its much more the feeder than it is the calf.

 

[farwest]

c-cross is right on, nebraska state fair 07 i believe champion reserve steer also went 1,2 carcass, so it goes all ways.   i've sold 4-h calves as halves and quarters to people in town, they line up to buy the next year.  Dark cutters to my knowledge are stress right before the kill,  u people think these 4-h calves are stressed probably are idiots,  compare a calf in a 55 degree room in the summer to one standing out in a pen with 200 others standing around him breaking the breeze at 110 degrees with 80 per cent humidity, or 40 below wind chill with no windbreak, that's stress.   I think dusty is on to something with these bottle calves being a high percentage dark cutters because they are stressed from the lack of mingling with other cattle.  You'd have to think that may go on with a showcalf.   think about it, lead your calf to the pen where everyone else dumps theirs in before they go on the pot to tyson, they havn't seen that since the day they were weaned off their mamma, that has to be stress and anxiety to them.  I'm saying it isn't the stress of us handling them, it's the stress hours before they are killed of their environment being something totally different.  here goes my karma

 

[chambero]

Another thought on the stress and grading issue.  We have a guy in our region that is trying to create a fairly unique Angus herd whose steers will grade close to 100% prime.  He's selecting for some very unique genetics, but he gave a talk I attended where he talked about the number one factor being identification and elimination of stress from that animal's entire life.  Meaning, he is starting them on creep feed very young, having moderate slow gains, and using fence-line weaning (which he thinks is a real big deal).  Point being, is from day 1 a calf has a tiny bit of marbling.  As others have said, under stress, that marbling is the first fat to go. 

Sounds familiar to how show steer breeders pamper their babies.  Not sure how this guy, who has nothing to do with show cattle,  will ever make it work from a commercial stand point.

Aren't Kobe beef calves raised in air conditioning also?

 

[knabe]

Another thought on the stress and grading issue.  We have a guy in our region that is trying to create a fairly unique Angus herd whose steers will grade close to 100% prime.  He's selecting for some very unique genetics, but he gave a talk I attended where he talked about the number one factor being identification and elimination of stress from that animal's entire life.  Meaning, he is starting them on creep feed very young, having moderate slow gains, and using fence-line weaning (which he thinks is a real big deal).  Point being, is from day 1 a calf has a tiny bit of marbling.  As others have said, under stress, that marbling is the first fat to go. 

Sounds familiar to how show steer breeders pamper their babies.  Not sure how this guy, who has nothing to do with show cattle,  will ever make it work from a commercial stand point.

Aren't Kobe beef calves raised in air conditioning also?

calves will wean themselves at about 10 mos, heifers earlier than steers.  been basically doing the same thing.  he's not trying to be a commercial producer, he's a niche producer.  commercial producers, probably from his perspective have too much diversity in their product.

kobe beef are fed beer which keeps them cooler and stimulates their appetite in the summer.  i kinda doubt the cooler than as opposed to just water.  maybe it's a form of probiotic with the yeast.

 

[DL]

  u people think these 4-h calves are stressed probably are idiots, 

Does calling people who disagree with you idiots make your feel big and important and special? Can't you be just a titch civil or is that asking too much?

This is a good article on principles of low stress handling
http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/beef6stress.pdf

 

[vc]

Over the years that my boys have been doing steers we have only had one go on the truck, the rest have been brought home for a couple of weeks. The one steer that went to the packers came back to the meat cutters stamped USDA PRIME. The meat cutter called me to let me know, he was so exited. He told me the packers seldom if ever grade any of the fair calves Prime. Some kind of bias toward fair calves he said.

This steer was a Full Flush, shipped from back East to California as a calf,one week later we purchased him and he traveled another 300+ miles, jack potted 8 times,(we have to travel a minimum of 300 miles one way, for the jackpots)

At the Fair, he weighed 1320 empty, Third in his class of 8, the Grand and Reserve Black came from his class, Judged did say any other class he would have won he was just in the wrong class that day, with 2 very impressive steers (same Exhibitor owned both steers)

We do not have a cooler but he did spend their days tied in a covered area with fans and misters all day.

Every calf we have raised, from the Commercial Angus, their first years showing, to the clubcalf types they show now, have graded no less than choice.

I will say that this was a very calm Flush steer, never any issues with disposition except when the water hose touched his legs but that is another story. for another time.

I do agree that the way the are fed plays a big part in the way the grade, Even if you have to hold a calf, if you do it right they turn out fine.

 

[Dusty]

  u people think these 4-h calves are stressed probably are idiots, 

Does calling people who disagree with you idiots make your feel big and important and special? Can't you be just a titch civil or is that asking too much?

This is a good article on principles of low stress handling
http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/beef6stress.pdf

I guess when i grew up if I said or did something blatantly stupid i was called a lot worse than an idiot......

 

[6M Ranch]

Our first year for a cooler, and we graded choice.  I imagine there are a lot of factors contributing to low quality, including genetic and environmental.  I made the same arguments on another board a while back that show steers can and do grade high. I also think that show animals of any species should represent the best of all qualities.  Frequently I've seen the placings for both show and scan a lot more inline with each other.  This year the huge differences just stood out, not only with the grand, but almost all of the division champs and where they scanned.