Everyone keeps talking about the commercial side of the industry but the clubby world and the commercial world will never mesh. They are two completely different things and they should be viewed as such. The purebred associations should be the ones who are eradicating the genetic defects. The Angus association has done that with their genetic defects by not allowing carriers to be registered. The Maine and Shorthorn associations would have to do the same and that would help eradicate it in the clubby industry. That being said i raise clubbys and know that I have to use dirty bulls to stay in the game because you can see a difference in calves. My two cents.
Why continue to breed TH and PHA carriers?
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rackranch
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So you breed TH into your heard if you comments on the ''eye color'' are true... I assume you want clubby steers to sell and make profit from as well? Thanks for your comments..
rarebirdz
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View Profile Personal Message (Offline) Re: eye color question
« Reply #9 on: Today at 02:19:18 PM » Reply with quote
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i noticed it alot of my TH positive calves a blue or hazel haze
rarebirdz
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i noticed it alot of my TH positive calves a blue or hazel haze
rarebirdz
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rackranch said:
Did... now tryin to use defect free sons of the great bulls that I belive are of equal qualty. Hopin it works . As I said before if the fashin don't change the defect positive catle will have a niche market simple
Club cattle are a niche market, get rid of the defects and you still have unpredictable birth weights, nonexistent EPDs. Harder doing cattle. They are bred for a look, not ADG, feed conversion, or calving ease. A commercial rancher/farmer wants cows that can calve, provide enough milk to raise it, they want the calf to wean at 60% of the cows body weight and they want her to be re bred 2 months after she calved. They want to do this with little or no impute and they defiantly do not want to have to have the vet on speed dial during calving season.
The feeders want a calf that will stay sound, convert feed, and finish in the shortest amount of time, without spending hundreds of dollars on supplements to get them there.
I think there are cattle on both sides of the fence that can do both, but not to many on either side of the fence want to take a chance and be wrong either.
If your show herd can produce calves that will do all that and still win in the ring I salute you. My guess is that not all of them can and the ones that do not are probably the ones that produce the best show calves.
I forgot they want them uniform, when you are breeding with 3 way cross genetics or trying to get that little bit of something extra to get a special one you will not have a uniform herd.
The feeders want a calf that will stay sound, convert feed, and finish in the shortest amount of time, without spending hundreds of dollars on supplements to get them there.
I think there are cattle on both sides of the fence that can do both, but not to many on either side of the fence want to take a chance and be wrong either.
If your show herd can produce calves that will do all that and still win in the ring I salute you. My guess is that not all of them can and the ones that do not are probably the ones that produce the best show calves.
I forgot they want them uniform, when you are breeding with 3 way cross genetics or trying to get that little bit of something extra to get a special one you will not have a uniform herd.
kfacres
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cbcr said:
how do you figure?
SFASUshowman
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While I am not trying to tell anyone what to do, and I am not trying to say that we should just do away with all the carriers. My personal opinion is that I will not breed a carrier to a carrier, but I will breed that carrier to a double clean animal.
But what gets me is the absurd argument that continues to come up when people argue this on here. One of the other commentors said they know people that seek out carrier steers to show because they know they will have an advantage. Others have said they have to breed carriers to stay in the game. One even stated that carrier status begets more muscle and hair. You are all stating this as if the genes for muscle and hair are linked to the genes form TH/PHA and their not. It just so happened that some very good sires where carriers. Those sires got a lot of publicity and so people used them heavily. Thus the problem proliferated. There are plenty of clean bulls out there that phenotypically are just as good as the dirty bulls, but everyone will argue that they arent as good of producers as dirty bulls because the dirty bulls keep siring the most winners. But I dont think the evidence is good here. Personally I think there are calves out there sired by double clean bulls and out of double clean cows that are just as good as the calves out carrier cows and carrier bulls. The problem is the odds are with dirty bulls because they are bred to a lot more than the clean bulls. Its just like everytime someone asks what the breeding is on a steer that wins a big show. The first response is always gonna be some smart mouth saying "Well of course its out of Monopoly, or of course its out of Heatwave" even when they have no clue what the actual breeding on the calf. They say it because there have been so many winners sired out of them. And I am not knocking either bull, I personally like steers out of both of them. But come on look how heavily those bulls and their clones and offspring are bred. Its no wonder most of the winners go back to them, odds are in their favor. I would almost be willing to bet that close to 75% of the clubbies produced each year go back to those bulls. So if there are 100 calves showing and 75 are out of monopoly or Heatwave and 25 are out of all the rest. Odss just have it that a Monopoly or Heatwave are gonna win.. And agian I am not saying that the bulls are bad or its wrong. I am just saying my opinion is there are bulls out there just as good, they just arent used as much, and with those bulls dominating the market these other bulls just dont get a chance to prove themselves. It would be kinda like somebody else coming on the scene and trying to compete with Wal-Mart and Target.
I am not trying to sway the argument one way or the other. I am just saying we keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, and personally I dont think any of them are very well founded, and I dont think anyone has made a sound argument in favor of breeding them yet. Not that I agree or disagree with your decision. This is just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own. Your operation is your operation. How you choose to run it is your business. I wont supoort or go against your because of that. Your decisions on this wont make me come by a calf from you or stop me from buying a calf for you. This is simply my opinion.
Sorry I rambled a bit. LOL
But what gets me is the absurd argument that continues to come up when people argue this on here. One of the other commentors said they know people that seek out carrier steers to show because they know they will have an advantage. Others have said they have to breed carriers to stay in the game. One even stated that carrier status begets more muscle and hair. You are all stating this as if the genes for muscle and hair are linked to the genes form TH/PHA and their not. It just so happened that some very good sires where carriers. Those sires got a lot of publicity and so people used them heavily. Thus the problem proliferated. There are plenty of clean bulls out there that phenotypically are just as good as the dirty bulls, but everyone will argue that they arent as good of producers as dirty bulls because the dirty bulls keep siring the most winners. But I dont think the evidence is good here. Personally I think there are calves out there sired by double clean bulls and out of double clean cows that are just as good as the calves out carrier cows and carrier bulls. The problem is the odds are with dirty bulls because they are bred to a lot more than the clean bulls. Its just like everytime someone asks what the breeding is on a steer that wins a big show. The first response is always gonna be some smart mouth saying "Well of course its out of Monopoly, or of course its out of Heatwave" even when they have no clue what the actual breeding on the calf. They say it because there have been so many winners sired out of them. And I am not knocking either bull, I personally like steers out of both of them. But come on look how heavily those bulls and their clones and offspring are bred. Its no wonder most of the winners go back to them, odds are in their favor. I would almost be willing to bet that close to 75% of the clubbies produced each year go back to those bulls. So if there are 100 calves showing and 75 are out of monopoly or Heatwave and 25 are out of all the rest. Odss just have it that a Monopoly or Heatwave are gonna win.. And agian I am not saying that the bulls are bad or its wrong. I am just saying my opinion is there are bulls out there just as good, they just arent used as much, and with those bulls dominating the market these other bulls just dont get a chance to prove themselves. It would be kinda like somebody else coming on the scene and trying to compete with Wal-Mart and Target.
I am not trying to sway the argument one way or the other. I am just saying we keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, and personally I dont think any of them are very well founded, and I dont think anyone has made a sound argument in favor of breeding them yet. Not that I agree or disagree with your decision. This is just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own. Your operation is your operation. How you choose to run it is your business. I wont supoort or go against your because of that. Your decisions on this wont make me come by a calf from you or stop me from buying a calf for you. This is simply my opinion.
Sorry I rambled a bit. LOL
feeder duck
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ENOUGH SAID!!!!!
You are all stating this as if the genes for muscle and hair are linked to the genes form TH/PHA and their not.
It's possible that the genes aren't related in the way that Knabe would draw it up. However, it is beyond comprehension that you would state that the phenotypic expression of hair, muscle and bone, (you left that one out), is not related to being a carrier of the TH or PHA gene, especially TH. Jeff (Cattle.com) has argued many times here that it is his experience that he PHA bulls carrier more muscle, hair and bone. Brad Hook is investing lots of money on the premise that a double carrier animal gives you the best shot at a great one. It just boggles my mind the things that are posted here like they are "facts." Without being a carrier, Heat Wave and Monopoly are just bulls..............like All Aboard. You find, get and promote a clean bull that can make show steers that beat Heat Waves and you can be on the beach in two years. Let me know when you find him. I'd be more than happy to purchase semen.
It's possible that the genes aren't related in the way that Knabe would draw it up. However, it is beyond comprehension that you would state that the phenotypic expression of hair, muscle and bone, (you left that one out), is not related to being a carrier of the TH or PHA gene, especially TH. Jeff (Cattle.com) has argued many times here that it is his experience that he PHA bulls carrier more muscle, hair and bone. Brad Hook is investing lots of money on the premise that a double carrier animal gives you the best shot at a great one. It just boggles my mind the things that are posted here like they are "facts." Without being a carrier, Heat Wave and Monopoly are just bulls..............like All Aboard. You find, get and promote a clean bull that can make show steers that beat Heat Waves and you can be on the beach in two years. Let me know when you find him. I'd be more than happy to purchase semen.
hamburgman
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Personally I feel the genes are linked.
knabe
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hamburgman said:
which one's, the money gene, TH and the trainwreck genes?
SFASUshowman
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Many people have emailed me and told me how the big names in the industry disagree with me. That they believe the genes are all linked. I think its a coorelation. These great bulls are carriers. I am not arguing that, and I am not saying that we should stop using these bulls. But from my understanding, not only have geneticist not linked the genes to one another, I think most geneticist dont feel the genes are linked. I study genetics, but I am by no means a geneticist, nor do I know all of the geneticist out there or their studies or beliefs. I am simply stating what I have learned and what I know. I may be wrong, I have no problem admitting that. But what I see is a coorelation. That these good bulls are carriers. But from a genetic point I see no research that indicates they must pass on the the undesirable genes in order to pass on the desirable ones.
Like I said earlier, I grew up in the club calf world and the show pig world. And this argument that is going on now in the cattle industry reminds all to much of the argument that went on in the show pig industry over the Stress Gene. There were many in that industry that wouldnt use or stand a stress negative boar because they felt that the negative pigs were completely incapable of pocessing or producing the mass and quality of the carrier and positive boars. I wont say that we produced negative pigs that blew the carriers and positives out of the water, but we did end up producing a lot of negative pigs that were every bit as good as the carriers and positives.
It will be very hard to produce bulls that produce better than Monopoly or Heatwave, they are legends, and with all the clones now they will probably always dominate in the club calf industry. But just like in the showpig industry where the boars that brought all that power were dirty, but we eventually got them to produce clean hogs that were phenotypically just as good. I have to believe the same will eventually happen in the club calf industry, these bulls that raised the quality and power to a whole new level are also carriers. But eventually they will most likely produce clean bulls that, while they may not necessarily be better, they will be just as good. Thats my point of view, and it will remain my point of view until there is scientific evidence to prove it otherwise. I will continue to use the bulls on clean cows. I dont knock people who choose to use the on carrier cows, and I am not trying to change the industry here. I am a small time guy, so for me the 25% chance that mating carrier to carrier is going to produce a lethal combination not only to the calf but possibly also the cow is a risk that is to high for me to take. On the other hand for the bigger producers, The potential greatness of the calf may outway the risk of losing a calf or cow.
I am not trying to be an expert or argue. I am just stating my opinion and the conclusions I have derived from things I have studied.
Like I said earlier, I grew up in the club calf world and the show pig world. And this argument that is going on now in the cattle industry reminds all to much of the argument that went on in the show pig industry over the Stress Gene. There were many in that industry that wouldnt use or stand a stress negative boar because they felt that the negative pigs were completely incapable of pocessing or producing the mass and quality of the carrier and positive boars. I wont say that we produced negative pigs that blew the carriers and positives out of the water, but we did end up producing a lot of negative pigs that were every bit as good as the carriers and positives.
It will be very hard to produce bulls that produce better than Monopoly or Heatwave, they are legends, and with all the clones now they will probably always dominate in the club calf industry. But just like in the showpig industry where the boars that brought all that power were dirty, but we eventually got them to produce clean hogs that were phenotypically just as good. I have to believe the same will eventually happen in the club calf industry, these bulls that raised the quality and power to a whole new level are also carriers. But eventually they will most likely produce clean bulls that, while they may not necessarily be better, they will be just as good. Thats my point of view, and it will remain my point of view until there is scientific evidence to prove it otherwise. I will continue to use the bulls on clean cows. I dont knock people who choose to use the on carrier cows, and I am not trying to change the industry here. I am a small time guy, so for me the 25% chance that mating carrier to carrier is going to produce a lethal combination not only to the calf but possibly also the cow is a risk that is to high for me to take. On the other hand for the bigger producers, The potential greatness of the calf may outway the risk of losing a calf or cow.
I am not trying to be an expert or argue. I am just stating my opinion and the conclusions I have derived from things I have studied.
MCC said:
We accept all breeds. But one of the most common question in phone conversations has been, what about genetic defects? My answer has been and always will be, the Composite Beef Cattle Registry will not accept breeding animals for registration that test positive for genetic defects.
CAB
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cbcr said:
If an animals has ancestors with known genetic defects and none of the animals have been tested, then yes that animal would have to be tested. But if the sire or dam have been tested and are negative, then the animal being registered would not need to be tested.
CAB
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If you don't test them all, you are going to end up having troubles down the line. PPL will tell you what they want!! Again JMO.
Our rules for testing will be pretty well what is standard that most association have.
Proof that animals have been tested will be required from one of the labs that does the genetic testing such as Pfizer, Igenity, etc. If the information cannot be documented or proven, then yes the animal will have to be tested.
Proof that animals have been tested will be required from one of the labs that does the genetic testing such as Pfizer, Igenity, etc. If the information cannot be documented or proven, then yes the animal will have to be tested.
farmboy
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It will only be a matter of time before we find the link between TH and PHA to muscle, bone, and hair. I could go through a group of 50 calves and pick out the carriers and non carriers.
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